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Eh.... The trend of Apple's pro computers has been pretty uniform since the G3 era. You had cutting-edge processors that started falling badly behind Intel as time went on (the dual processor G4s were absolutely smoked by Intel's offerings until the G5 came out and then we had the failure to reach 3GHz...) The Mac Pros were so amazing because they were substantially more powerful than the G5s they replaced and far cooler, quieter, and energy-efficient, not to mention cost-competitive. The sheer length of time languishing with a self-admitted dead end is the only novel thing about the current situation.

I agree, my look back might have been through rose tinted glasses re. the Mac hardware . ;)
Still, they were competitive in the sense that Apple was very successful in certain industries, like Photo, Audio, graphic design , partly (mostly ? ) due to Mac OS and later OS X .
But you are of course right about the often huge disadvantage in processing power .
Some argue the G5s were competitive at the time, but when I went from a decently specced G5 to an MP 3.1 it was a massive leap forward .

I remember the GHz wars and how Apple kept telling people how Mac OS made Macs actually faster than PCs and CPU numbers meant nothing .
They were full of it even back then ;) .

And IIRC, all Mac towers used to be expandable and compatible ( enough ) for a wide variety of uses , Mac laptops came with all the ports one needed, legacy software and hardware/driver support was in general well taken care of .

That has changed some years ago, maybe around 2012ish ; personally I think Apple's approach in hardware and OS development is very different to what it was before that - far less based on user needs and expectations, mainly aimed at satisfying internal design principles .
 
Users including Pros switched to x86 because they were able to have a choice of OS on the same machine and run VM’s of Windows whilst in OSX. And in my mind it meant more programmes as it must be easier to port a programmes from one OS to another if the hardware is the same?

But at this point I see moving to ARM as taking all that away, plus I’ve read comments about how ARM is not as good at certain tasks as x86 is. But from day one or even two would you be able to run OSX and Windows on the same machine, or in a VM in the other OS?

And for consumers it’ll be a question of here’s a Mac with the same processor as an iPad, and with the new iPad Pro you can plug it to a monitor, so then it becomes a decision if you need a mouse and OSX? This will o think confuse decisions there.

We will see but I’m not convinced currently that ARM will work half as well as X86 does in a ‘pro’ multi thousand dollar machine.

AFAIK, ARM CPU's running Microsoft Windows (for ARM) are currently limited to running 32-bit apps. If ARM CPU's could be re-engineered to run a 64-bit Windows (for ARM) or macOS (64-bit) operating system & their 64-bit apps (normal x86 Windows apps, in emulation), that feature has yet to appear anywhere.
Conclusion: an ARM CPU in any kind of desktop machine appears to be several years off in the future.
 
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AFAIK, ARM CPU's running Microsoft Windows (for ARM) are currently limited to running 32-bit apps. If ARM CPU's could be re-engineered to run a 64-bit Windows (for ARM) or macOS (64-bit) operating system & their 64-bit apps (normal x86 Windows apps, in emulation), that feature has yet to appear anywhere.
Conclusion: an ARM CPU in any kind of desktop machine appears to be several years off in the future.

Losing Boot Camp and Windows emulation will be a deal-breaker for some but most people run Macs for macOS. I don't see this as a good enough reason for Apple to stay with Intel. Nobody predicted Apple was going to ship the 64-bit Arm A7 chip back in 2013, it took the whole industry by surprise and forced Qualcomm to have to step up to compete. This year's Mac Pro will almost certainly run on Intel but at WWDC 2019 we are going to learn all about how developers can port their iOS apps to macOS. Once Macs run on Arm processors and the big apps get ported Apple will allow users to run unported iOS apps on their Arm Macs and this will become a selling point differentiating the Mac platform. As far as this plan being "several years off in the future" it's more like 2 years away, it's coming, and sooner than you think.
 
Losing Boot Camp and Windows emulation will be a deal-breaker for some but most people run Macs for macOS. I don't see this as a good enough reason for Apple to stay with Intel. Nobody predicted Apple was going to ship the 64-bit Arm A7 chip back in 2013, it took the whole industry by surprise and forced Qualcomm to have to step up to compete. This year's Mac Pro will almost certainly run on Intel but at WWDC 2019 we are going to learn all about how developers can port their iOS apps to macOS. Once Macs run on Arm processors and the big apps get ported Apple will allow users to run unported iOS apps on their Arm Macs and this will become a selling point differentiating the Mac platform. As far as this plan being "several years off in the future" it's more like 2 years away, it's coming, and sooner than you think.

Well, let's not get carried away here .

- iPads/iPhones are not Macs . Their sole purpose is the elimination of the physical keyboard .

- iOS is not OS X . It does a decent impersonation, but doesn't really fool anyone .
And the two are about as compatible as toenails and rainbows .

- iOS apps running on OS X - wasn't it supposed to be the other way around , ever since there was iOS ?
So now the new narrative is - indoor plumbing is overrated, bring back the outhouse experience ?

In what universe does anyone want more iOS, and less Mac ?
What's next, typing with your thumbs ? ;)
 
As far as this plan being "several years off in the future" it's more like 2 years away, it's coming, and sooner than you think.

What's the difference between "2 years away" and "several years off"? It's strange how you can agree with someone and yet your post sounds so argumentative. Also, let's be clear -- you don't know either and these are just your guesses for what will happen.
 
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Losing Boot Camp and Windows emulation will be a deal-breaker for some but most people run Macs for macOS.

Currently, Windows isn't so much emulated as virtualized. At this point in modern implementations the substantive difference between the two is that virtualization support is built into all modern x86 CPUs. Only a very narrow set of kernel calls are trapped by the hardware and "managed". Normal application doing things that operate in user space run at full speed. In that user space more nothing is emulated at al.. It is the same exact execution/processing.

x86 version of windows OS and apps on ARM would largely loose most of that 0% overhead. So far there is no 3rd party Windows OS ARM images to buy ( they all come completely bundled to the device. Which is the general mainstream deployment for Windows 10. Win-on-ARM came with 10 and shows no sign of wide support for the pre-10 models of buying/purchasing so far. )

So while the standard ARM implementation has very similar virtualization support... getting a version of Windows to virtualize is a probably a stopper right now ( as Apple is extremely unlikely to start paying Microsoft for windows copies to distribute with their hardware. )

Now if ARM implementations were 10-15% than all x86 implementation, then I don't think many folks would care if they gave up 5-6% on emulation. (there would still be net positive performance increase. And why the 68K->PPC moved worked well. And the PPC->x86 did also. Neither of those emulations were done with direct CPU instruction support. ). Emulation is only a big deal if barely managing to get to parity.



I don't see this as a good enough reason for Apple to stay with Intel.

In and of itself? No. Combined with other relevant factors ( only parity in speed, no licenable Windows ARM , and/or not any less expensive. ) it could be one of several "tie breakers".

Nobody predicted Apple was going to ship the 64-bit Arm A7 chip back in 2013, it took the whole industry by surprise and forced Qualcomm to have to step up to compete.

That was entirely driven by ARM delivering up the 64 spec and far more so Qualcomm kicking that down the road. That was primarily more because Apple was laser focused on doing a Phone chip. At the time most folks wre focus on 64 bit ARM being some kind of "intel killer" in the server space. Apple looked at it as a chance to put some of the laegacy parts of the ARM instruction set in the review mirror. It was nothing about 64 bit data addressing and all about getting to a cleaner instruction set. (The vast majoirty Apple's iOS still aren't past the 4GB limit. iOS actually won't let user apps allocate more than 1-1.5GB of memory . They are actively suppressing greater than 32bit address space by user apps!!!! )

But where is the laser focus in trying to chase 2-3 desktop implementations when nobody else is. Apple's move was to do less vacations than everyone else; not more. Part of the laser focus is to drive volume through their chip development efforts. The entire Mac line up really doesn't motivate the same level of volume at all.

This year's Mac Pro will almost certainly run on Intel but at WWDC 2019 we are going to learn all about how developers can port their iOS apps to macOS.

Really that is going to be about porting both ways now with two different underlying chip implementations. Apple doesn't require shifting Macs to ARM to carry out that plan at all. Nothing particular in Apple plan so far points to some unified single blob that is delivered to both os implementations. That was not present in their presentation at WWDC 2018 and that isn't likely to change in 2019. It doesn't "have to" change in 2020 either.

There is very little in the talks about Apple using ARM in macs that points to it being a rapid 100% wholesale dumping. The previously transitions were "big bang" like but there is about zero that definitively points to that now.

The major moves in the desktop space are moving opposite of what Apple has been doing over last 5 years of trying to integrate the whole system into one chip with their ARM SoC. Ryzen is GPU less ( Xeon workstation and AMD workstation/server already were ) Apple's chips are fundamentally pull the GPU in 'closer' to the CPU memory system. Apple has done about zero work here. There is an ARM server targeted version they could license as a jumps start, but it isn't a great fit for single user desktop. And it is still largely unmotivated by volume and economically. It might be a way to fart a sizable chunk of the money pit holding down the drain..... but better return on investment as several other more rational approaches ... probably not.


Once Macs run on Arm processors and the big apps get ported Apple will allow users to run unported iOS apps on their Arm Macs and this will become a selling point differentiating the Mac platform.

Apple has said nothing about unported iOS running on macOS at all. Zip, nada, nothing. (besides what already happens in XCode. )

[ ChromeOS is trying to drag in lots of Android apps but that is primarily because ChromeOS has about zero native apps. macOS doesn't have that "problem". Apple spending tons of effort to bring over the flotsam of iOS apps to macOS is not really a significant value add at all. Folks who wan't to put in the effort to port the right way... yeah but those are ports. Lazy folks who just want to dump a mismtached UI onto a window on the macOS screen..... macOS needs that like another hole in head. It isn't going to help much at all. ]


As far as this plan being "several years off in the future" it's more like 2 years away, it's coming, and sooner than you think.

To the MacBook in 2 years or so? more than a good chance it could be. To the iMac Pro , iMac , Mac Pro in 2 years or so? highly likely not (at least using Apple chips. ).

P.S. IMHO there is a higher chance Apple would get into a either a cellular modem and/or discrete mobile GPU before trying to do a desktop focused CPU. Most likely they are just going to throw the iPad Pro chip over the fence and do a subset of Mac laptops with it.... and that will be about it.
 
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Losing Boot Camp and Windows emulation will be a deal-breaker for some but most people run Macs for macOS. I don't see this as a good enough reason for Apple to stay with Intel.

Apple introduced this capability in 2006 and opened new horizons for the closed Mac platform. Virtual PC was slow as snail on PowerPC till then. It is a vital part for people trying to do real work, this is why Parallels and Fusion and others are so successful.

I guess that you didn't have any problem with Apple killing precious software in the past years too. But many did.
(see Aperture etc)

Please no other features cut. Software or hardware related. Be sensible.
 
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Apple introduced this capability in 2006 and opened new horizons for the closed Mac platform. Virtual PC was slow as snail on PowerPC till then. It is a vital part for people trying to do real work, this is why Parallels and Fusion and others are so successful.

Virtual PC was slow only because of that specific implementation. Rosetta ( really Transitive Technology's 'emulator' ) beat the slop out of VirtualPC performance. It went about it in a smarter way. The only stumbling block there is Apple doesn't have access to that tech anymore ( belong to IBM.. who won't license it at terms Apple would like) and Apple doesn't particularly have the skill set to do it ( some JIT folks in the javascript engine but that is about it and substantive different context. )

Same issues as I raised in previous post above with Parallels and Fusion. They have increasing migrated away from doing "emulation" themselves and have because intrinsically reliant on the virtualization opcodes standard in the x86 chips for their current performance levels. Ports of Parallels and Fusions to ARM that ran other ARM OS instances would offer the same benefits. The bigger stumbler is how many ARM OS varaints are on the other side waiting ( Linux but that not much , if any, Windows ones. )


I guess that you didn't have any problem with Apple killing precious software in the past years too. But many did.
(see Aperture etc)

Aperture wasn't strategic. Lightroom was dominating. And right they now have a much larger and diverse ecosystem of products that fill that space. If Apple and Adobe had squeezed out the rest, that would be smaller now. ( even Photo Mechanic is getting a catalog/assets management feature in the new version ).

macOS isn't really all that healthy if an bundled Apple app or a highly discounted Apple App sits on top of every major category.

[ Ed for ‘assets’ ]
 
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I think that most of the consumers do not care or have an interest about the iPad's CPU, so I don't think that there will be any confusion.
Anyway, the desktop ARM should be way more powerful than the iPad's one, so there will be a clear distance between them, necessary for marketing reasons too.

What about the non tech savvy pros then?
I don’t think an ARM Mac Pro will be as good as you think and will be pretty limited. Does it also not mean all programmes would need to be re-written to work in it?
According to Apple the A12X is as powerful as an Xbox One S. well that’s a pretty big claim to make as that console is running a version of Windows. It is more then capable of running full blown Windows 10.

So if it’s powerful and runs millions of apps. You’ll be getting potentially a Mac Pro with a powerful processor that can’t run many programmes at all?

Is the pro market ready for another Power PC to Intel Switch?
 
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Does it also not mean all programmes would need to be re-written to work in it?
All programmes would certainly need to be recompiled to avoid running under what would probably be painfully slow x64 emulation.

Even with recompiling, however, the results might be disappointing. An x64 app compiled for AVX or AVX2 might suffer a lot when downgraded to the ARM64 instruction set. Data alignment issues can be very significant when going between architectures - sometimes padding data with a few unused bytes makes a big difference.

The people saying "just recompile for ARM" are:
  • not developers
  • ignorant about the way that how things are coded in a high level language can affect cache, memory and other hardware architecture issues (ever worked with a CPU with a direct-mapped cache?)
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Fixed with Edit assets
I still see "asses" though, search for other typos. ;)
 
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What about the non tech savvy pros then?
I don’t think an ARM Mac Pro will be as good as you think and will be pretty limited.

If it is some kind of fantasy ARM CPU where thrown in all the non code execution core ( 2-3 more memory controllers and capacity , PCH chipset , huge change to I/O bandwidth , huge change to ).
And some magical extra speed burst that ARM on some magical advantages fab tech .

Does it also not mean all programmes would need to be re-written to work in it?

Technically no. Again though Apple has huge missing pieces although this time in software .

According to Apple the A12X is as powerful as an Xbox One S. well that’s a pretty big claim to make as that console is running a version of Windows. It is more then capable of running full blown Windows 10.

The Xbox one S is a sub $300 computer released two years before the A12x . At this oint can pragmatically tact another year on behind there comparative to top end desktop.

Apple’ sub $200 device with an A12X ( AppleTV ) that somewhat overlaps with Xbox is more like
Y what they were digging at with that comparison . Not a mid range Windows laptops with a mordern mid range mobile GPU . Let alone any generic desktop with a midrange GPU
 
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According to Apple the A12X is as powerful as an Xbox One S.
Throughout the G4/G5 days Steve and the Amigos would stand on stage at MacWorld and claim that the Apple Pro systems were faster than PCs - but based on cherry-picking applications that were hand-coded for AltiVec (renamed by Apple marketing to "Velocity Engine").

It was obvious to most that in fact the Intel CPUs were in fact faster overall. Regardless of "Phil my ass" talking about bubbles.

Those claims were suspect 20 years ago - why believe anything that Apple says about the A-series?

(Note that I'm not suggesting that Apple is making lies - just that Apple marketing picks tiny factoids out of context to build its alternate universe.)

Is the pro market ready for another Power PC to Intel Switch?
The pro market doesn't care - they've already bought Z-series Xeons. That's why it won't matter what the MP7,1 is (if it ever ships).
 
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Don't keep getting your hopes up guys. We ain't hearing nothing until WWDC19
Ha! Apple just admitted they SNAFU’ed the AIrPower . Two years of coming really soon and then ...oops we’re incompetent. So the plan is to sit through a third ‘dog ate my homework’ anniversary with that cloud hanging over their head and simply say nothing . Fingers stuck in ears with ‘wait for dog and pony show’ excuse . ROTFLMAO ... yeah that is going to work well for them .
 
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Ha! Apple just admitted they SNAFU’ed the AIrPower . Two years of coming really soon and then ...oops we’re incompetent. So the plan is to sit through a third ‘dog ate my homework’ anniversary with that cloud hanging over their head and simply say nothing . Fingers stuck in ears with ‘wait for dog and pony show’ excuse . ROTFLMAO ... yeah that is going to work well for them .
And note that Wednesday of next week will be the second anniversary of the three amigos' mea culpa about the failure of the MP6,1.

Apple Admits the Mac Pro Was a Mess

Two years, and still nothing on the horizon. If you like the Mac Pro - be afraid, be very afraid.

Or be smart, and buy a Z-series.
 
?..

It was obvious to most that in fact the Intel CPUs were in fact faster overall. Regardless of "Phil my ass" talking about bubbles.

Those claims were suspect 20 years ago - why believe anything that Apple says about the A-series?


The major change between now and then is that Apple now has a world class CPU/GPU team in house . Before they did not . The question the isn’t well motivated though is why they would almost completely take those folks off iOS device work and put them on Mac only work . If they did do that reassignment they could come up with something better . They have a better than average team . But why risk 60+ % of this overall business to do that ?

( if they are shifting to new iOS processor every 2-2.5 years they could. But what is Qualcomm , HiSense/Hauwai, Samsung , etc. while Apple pauses to thin out their efforts .)



The pro market doesn't care - they've already bought Z-series Xeons. That's why it won't matter what the MP7,1 is (if it ever ships).

If AMD pulls clearly out in front in 2020 folks will dump older Xeons for Threadripper and Eypc . If Apple had something better still , then Apple would have very similar advantage for more than a few workloads .[/QUOTE]
 
I'm beginning to think you're an HP undercover agent…
Actually, I don't buy anything from HP. Nothing. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't comment on how sad the Z-series makes Apple look.
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If AMD pulls clearly out in front in 2020 folks will dump older Xeons for Threadripper and Eypc . If Apple had something better still , then Apple would have very similar advantage for more than a few workloads .
California Dreaming

Just amazed that there are all the comments that "software sucks - it can't use more than <small number> of threads" alongside "AMD has so many more threads".

If your software doesn't really use more than 4 to 8 threads, why do you even mention a system with 32 to 128 threads?
 
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If AMD pulls clearly out in front in 2020 folks will dump older Xeons for Threadripper and Eypc . If Apple had something better still , then Apple would have very similar advantage for more than a few workloads .

I'm not waiting that long - I have already specced out an Eypc workstation. If the 7,1 isn't what I need, that 6K goes to Velocity Micro.
 
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I'm beginning to think you're an HP undercover agent…

I saw him standing on the street corner handing out some of these.

c05242656.png

The gateway drug to a Z series workstation.
 
- iOS apps running on OS X - wasn't it supposed to be the other way around , ever since there was iOS ?
So now the new narrative is - indoor plumbing is overrated, bring back the outhouse experience ?

In what universe does anyone want more iOS, and less Mac ?
What's next, typing with your thumbs ? ;)
Only thing from iOS I want is a few apps to replace aging widgets on my dashboard. Anyone still remember / use dashboard?
 
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