MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[bsbeamer]

I could swear somewhere Apple stated it could be extended with new firmware in the future and implied that meant potential support for other codecs. Maybe I just imagined that, could be wishful thinking playing tricks on my memory.

Please post a link from Apple that states this or a report from WWDC claiming this.

I've seen a ton of horribly written "reviews" of the MacPro7,1 that make wild claims about Afterburner and direct links to RED just because both are video-codec based FPGA's. It's one thing to make parallels between the two for cost analysis (the RED ROCKET X costs almost $7K). It's an entirely different thing to draw conclusions that RED WILL make Afterburner work with R3D, or Blackmagic WILL make BRAW work with Afterburner, etc.

(How a "review" can be written before the author actually gets their hands on the device is another topic for another day. It's a preview, at best.)

This is what is published directly from Apple about Afterburner:

Afterburner
ProRes and ProRes RAW accelerator card

PCI Express x16 card
Accelerates ProRes and ProRes RAW codecs in Final Cut Pro X, QuickTime Player X, and supported third-party apps
Supports playback of up to 3 streams of 8K ProRes RAW or up to 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW

Introducing Apple Afterburner. Blaze through 8K video.
Created to transform the workflow for film and video professionals, Afterburner allows you to go straight from camera to timeline and work natively with 4K and even 8K files from the start. No more time-consuming transcoding, storage overhead, or errors during output. Proxy workflows, RIP.

Cut to even more creativity.
Afterburner is a hardware accelerator card built with an FPGA, or programmable ASIC. With over a million logic cells, it can process up to 6.3 billion pixels per second and is capable of handling up to three streams of 8K ProRes RAW or 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW. This means you can free up your cores to enable even more creative effects and processing.

Up to 3 streams of 8K ProRes RAW video at 30 fps
Up to 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW video at 30 fps
Up to 16 streams of 4K ProRes 422 video at 30 fps

 

[thisisnotmyname]

Please post a link from Apple that states this or a report from WWDC claiming this.

I've seen a ton of horribly written "reviews" of the MacPro7,1 that make wild claims about Afterburner and direct links to RED just because both are video-codec based FPGA's. It's one thing to make parallels between the two for cost analysis (the RED ROCKET X costs almost $7K). It's an entirely different thing to draw conclusions that RED WILL make Afterburner work with R3D, or Blackmagic WILL make BRAW work with Afterburner, etc.

(How a "review" can be written before the author actually gets their hands on the device is another topic for another day. It's a preview, at best.)

This is what is published directly from Apple about Afterburner:

Afterburner
ProRes and ProRes RAW accelerator card

PCI Express x16 card
Accelerates ProRes and ProRes RAW codecs in Final Cut Pro X, QuickTime Player X, and supported third-party apps
Supports playback of up to 3 streams of 8K ProRes RAW or up to 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW

Introducing Apple Afterburner. Blaze through 8K video.
Created to transform the workflow for film and video professionals, Afterburner allows you to go straight from camera to timeline and work natively with 4K and even 8K files from the start. No more time-consuming transcoding, storage overhead, or errors during output. Proxy workflows, RIP.

Cut to even more creativity.
Afterburner is a hardware accelerator card built with an FPGA, or programmable ASIC. With over a million logic cells, it can process up to 6.3 billion pixels per second and is capable of handling up to three streams of 8K ProRes RAW or 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW. This means you can free up your cores to enable even more creative effects and processing.

Up to 3 streams of 8K ProRes RAW video at 30 fps
Up to 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW video at 30 fps
Up to 16 streams of 4K ProRes 422 video at 30 fps

I stopped and thought about it and it was that interview John Gruber did with Craig at WWDC.

The Talk Show Live From WWDC 2019, With Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak

Recorded in front of a live audience at The California Theater in San Jose on Tuesday 4 June 2019, John Gruber is joined by Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak to discuss the news from WWDC 2019.

daringfireball.net

There's fun stuff throughout that interview but there's a short bit of around the fourteen minute mark where Craig acknowledges that Afterburner is an FPGA and can be reprogrammed in seconds for new purposes. He states that "absolutely" it can reprogrammed to do new things. He doesn't go so far as to say it will be used for other codecs but he says "more to come, I don't have anything to announce today."

I can't remember if they circled back to that later and I'm not planning to rewatch the whole thing now ;-) but that's what had struck me as this could be extended to other codecs.

 

[mattspace]

Do you think the Vega II Duo Module will run at x16 PCIe speed -
So each of the two Vega II GPUs on the card will only run at x8?

I would imagine an MPX card that is x16 overall (each sub-card getting x8) with the extra pci lanes for routing video back out to the built in TB ports is more likely, than effectively having 32 pci lanes to a single MPX bay.

 

[Mago]

The thing is around the corner, likely pre-order tomorrow.

What's I spect:

1. 6000$ cheapest non-bto, likely 12c/64gb/512 single Vega II
2. Bto likely to offer cheaper "barebone" like for diy
3. GPU has to be meaningfully cheaper than mi60 (about 2500$ corporate) but more expensive than rx vii,
4. rx580 only available in bto
5. Afterburner card close to 1000$ not cheaper than 800$ likely bundled with some video apps.

Of course if you're in ML/HPC the Mac Pro is irrelevant, as AMD TR3 with trx40 mb is around the corner with much more power and compatible with nVidia friendly OSs as win crash and Ubuntu®

 

[bsbeamer]

Afterburner is 100% an FPGA and Apple has 100% acknowledged and advertised that. Until they (Apple) release methods to reprogram for something else, Afterburner is going to be nothing more than the ProRes workflow accelerator it is advertised to be. That has value for some people, but will be a worthless doorstop for others.

If Apple chooses not to release methods for programming Afterburner, you're looking at 3rd party markets for similar acceleration on similar cards, or looking to other vendors/manufacturers developing methods to do that. Who is paying for that R&D? Is there even a market for this "software unlock" style programming?

When RED chose to release a similar product (RED ROCKET X) it cost nearly $7K and was not exactly a largely successful product. RED chose to discontinue its development and they no longer sell the card directly. You can find retailers with stock they cannot clear out ($6750 at B&H, Adorama and others).

I really hope it can do more than ProRes one day. I see huge potential for tapping into accelerators like this for video. Hopefully this happens long before people pickup Afterburner V1 on eBay inventory fire sales.

 

[Krevnik]

• 6000$ cheapest non-bto, likely 12c/64gb/512 single Vega II
• Bto likely to offer cheaper "barebone" like for diy

This is not what “pricing starts at” means.

 

[Nugget]

Bto likely to offer cheaper "barebone" like for diy

The base spec is already as barebones as you can get. What are you imagining? 16gb of ram? A 128gb ssd? How can it possibly go any lower than it already is?

 

[Polymorphic]

This is definitely a problem since Apple doesn't charge until they are ready to ship your order. If it doesn't ship before the end of the year I'll be scrambling to find other things to purchase to reduce my tax liability and I'll need to save cash to purchase the Mac Pro when it finally does ship. A double whammy of stress.

Same situation (and frustration) here. A new Mac Pro would constitute most of the dollars that I'd expense through the business in a year, but not knowing if it's even going to arrive in time makes planning very difficult.

Moreover, the Section 179 deduction also requires that the asset be placed in service in the year for which the deduction is taken. So even if the Mac Pro shipped on, say, December 21st, that might be too late from some people.

 

[bsbeamer]

Work with one client who is actively trying to negotiate a delay in billing several projects until January 2020 in an attempt to not have the income "show" in 2019. Unless you're a gambler, I'd highly suggest against that approach.

Most companies largely put a freeze on spending around Thanksgiving. Usually either a week before in mid-November or 1-2 weeks after in very early December. At this point, those companies are likely not purchasing MP7,1 this year regardless of shipping dates.

Some video teams are waiting until NAB 2020 to make a decision about continuing their future on macOS. No idea why they think those three or so months makes a huge difference at this point. I'm sure the budget decision based on lack of BTO pricing does not help these situations at all, but the future is clear for most of them - either the MP7,1 is your future, you move to an iMac/Mini/MBP rig, or you're actively looking at other machines/platforms.

 

[Mago]

Afterburner is 100% an FPGA and Apple has 100% acknowledged and advertised that. Until they (Apple) release methods to reprogram for something else, Afterburner is going to be nothing more than the ProRes workflow accelerator it is advertised to be. That has value for some people, but will be a worthless doorstop for others.

If Apple chooses not to release methods for programming Afterburner, you're looking at 3rd party markets for similar acceleration on similar cards, or looking to other vendors/manufacturers developing methods to do that. Who is paying for that R&D? Is there even a market for this "software unlock" style programming?

When RED chose to release a similar product (RED ROCKET X) it cost nearly $7K and was not exactly a largely successful product. RED chose to discontinue its development and they no longer sell the card directly. You can find retailers with stock they cannot clear out ($6750 at B&H, Adorama and others).

I really hope it can do more than ProRes one day. I see huge potential for tapping into accelerators like this for video. Hopefully this happens long before people pickup Afterburner V1 on eBay inventory fire sales.

Apple quoted 1 million logic elements fpga ("programmable asic" in they sneaky spell) 1 there are a bunch of pcie based fpga with 1MM logic elements costing less than 500$, I guess Apple is using some Altera product given the proximity with Intel.

 

[Mago]

Some video teams are waiting until NAB 2020 to make a decision about continuing their future on macOS. No idea why they think those three or so months makes a huge difference at this point.

Maybe they are waiting for Vega ii GPU pricing evolution or nVidia's next move as is not a secret nVidia is pushing hard on a accelerator appliance (something in Jetson family) for training, maybe aiming to segregate CUDA from gaming applications, the latest development in CUDA give to a remote self-contained accelerator, not likely an pcie non GPU accelerator peripherals (as I discussed coul be done in user space) but as network/thunderbolt connected slave compute rig where you can run/debug accelerated applications coded at the master device, not even requiring driver, can not discard the release of user space mode drivers for nVidia GPU as headless accelerators.

 

[bsbeamer]

Apple quoted 1 million logic elements fpga ("programmable asic" in they sneaky spell) 1 there are a bunch of pcie based fpga with 1MM logic elements costing less than 500$, I guess Apple is using some Altera product given the proximity with Intel.

At $1K or less, Afterburner has a chance to be embraced and successful longterm even if it's just for ProRes workflows. Not everyone will buy immediately, but they might even pickup in 6-12 months after the initial MP7,1 sticker shock wears off. Get it to work with TB3 enclosures and even more will be interested.

If it's around $2K the benefits over better or additional GPUs really come into play for what tasks it is designed to perform. You'll have some really evaluating and looking for benchmark improvements with things beyond FCPX. (More bang for buck.) You're also in the territory where picking up a MacMini for offloading some tasks may actually be more useful.

Personally cannot see it being successful longterm if it's $4K+ and stays at those prices. You'll only have larger companies and studios interested, which largely are not the FCPX target market.
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Maybe they are waiting for Vega ii GPU pricing evolution or nVidia's next move as is not a secret nVidia is pushing hard on a accelerator appliance (something in Jetson family) for training, maybe aiming to segregate CUDA from gaming applications, the latest development in CUDA give to a remote self-contained accelerator, not likely an pcie non GPU accelerator peripherals (as I discussed coul be done in user space) but as network/thunderbolt connected slave compute rig where you can run/debug accelerated applications coded at the master device, not even requiring driver, can not discard the release of user space mode drivers for nVidia GPU as headless accelerators.

CUDA on macOS is dead. If you need CUDA, you've left macOS or are leaving macOS in the very near future. You (should) be pushed off the platform when High Sierra security updates stop. Some will try to keep running for legacy, but this is not sustainable for the majority of users, especially those on new hardware.

 

[goMac]

Apple also implied in an interview that Afterburner would be cheaper than upgrading the GPU. Not sure if they meant cheaper than the Vega or Vega Duo.

 

[Mago]

At $1K or less, Afterburner has a chance to be embraced and successful longterm even if it's just for ProRes workflows. Not everyone will buy immediately, but they might even pickup in 6-12 months after the initial MP7,1 sticker shock wears off. Get it to work with TB3 enclosures and even more will be interested.

If it's around $2K the benefits over better or additional GPUs really come into play for what tasks it is designed to perform. You'll have some really evaluating and looking for benchmark improvements with things beyond FCPX. (More bang for buck.) You're also in the territory where picking up a MacMini for offloading some tasks may actually be more useful.

Personally cannot see it being successful longterm if it's $4K+ and stays at those prices. You'll only have larger companies and studios interested, which largely are not the FCPX target market.
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CUDA on macOS is dead. If you need CUDA, you've left macOS or are leaving macOS in the very near future. You (should) be pushed off the platform when High Sierra security updates stop. Some will try to keep running for legacy, but this is not sustainable for the majority of users, especially those on new hardware.

Not at all, CUDA in macOS still possible as long the GPU is remote (network/cloud) or its driver is loaded in user space (as non-gpu peripheral).
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Apple also implied in an interview that Afterburner would be cheaper than upgrading the GPU. Not sure if they meant cheaper than the Vega or Vega Duo.

Cheaper than a single core Vega II, it's should be below 1000$

 

[bsbeamer]

Not at all, CUDA in macOS still possible as long the GPU is remote (network/cloud) or its driver is loaded in user space (as non-gpu peripheral).

ANYONE clinging onto CUDA should not purchase the MacPro7,1.

 

[Mago]

ANYONE clinging onto CUDA should not purchase the MacPro7,1.

Agree, at least for a while, as nVidia Showcase it's NeXT move.

BTW, last minute "leaks" confirm tomorrow as the cgmMP release, so tomorrow will rename this thread to "not waiting more for the ...."

 

[deconstruct60]

.....
BTW, last minute "leaks" confirm tomorrow as the cgmMP release, so tomorrow will rename this thread to "not waiting more for the ...."

Or how about just let the thread die when the new Mac Pro is released. 14K posts over 3 years is long enough.

The actual release should trigger a new thread(s) complaining , confusion , and celebrations with at least ordering ( if not running for a week or so ) the new equipment.

 

[CWallace]

So 9to5Mac is reporting that Apple is planning to hold private press briefings in New York and Cupertino this week. Apple has used these briefings to show new Mac computer hardware in the past and speculation is the MacBook Pro 16" will be shown there. If they are showing the MBP-16, perhaps they will also be showing the Mac Pro, as Mago suggested.

 

[Bradleyone]

BTW, last minute "leaks" confirm tomorrow as the cgmMP release, so tomorrow will rename this thread to "not waiting more for the ...."

Oh, I hope so. Although the far less optimistic side of my brain makes me thinks of the Princess Bride quote, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

Usually with the press briefings, Apple invites select people to give their spiel to then issues them with a review unit, with an embargo date of 1 week.

If the press briefings are only happening this week, that means there's at least another week before public release.

However, this could all be for the MacBook Pro 16" with Indestructible Crumb-Proof Keyboard and Escape Key™. The Mac Pro briefings/review units could already have happened, to a very different crowd, or not at all.

The evidence for this is that when the iMac Pro was released, veteran Mac journalist Jason Snell wanted to review it but hadn't been briefed on it and basically had to get permission from Apple to review his own unit which he'd bought for podcast editing. He wasn't considered to be the right people to be briefed. Same with Gruber et al.

So, you've given me hope the Mac Pro will make it in November, but if it fails to turn out:

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my Mac Pro. Prepare to die."

 

[goMac]

Oh, I hope so. Although the far less optimistic side of my brain makes me thinks of the Princess Bride quote, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

Usually with the press briefings, Apple invites select people to give their spiel to then issues them with a review unit, with an embargo date of 1 week.

If the press briefings are only happening this week, that means there's at least another week before public release.

However, this could all be for the MacBook Pro 16" with Indestructible Crumb-Proof Keyboard and Escape Key™. The Mac Pro briefings/review units could already have happened, to a very different crowd, or not at all.

The evidence for this is that when the iMac Pro was released, veteran Mac journalist Jason Snell wanted to review it but hadn't been briefed on it and basically had to get permission from Apple to review his own unit which he'd bought for podcast editing. He wasn't considered to be the right people to be briefed. Same with Gruber et al.

So, you've given me hope the Mac Pro will make it in November, but if it fails to turn out:

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my Mac Pro. Prepare to die."

I don't think the Mac Pro is going to be a significant part of any briefing. That briefing happened at WWDC.

Any briefing this week is really going to be convincing everyone it's safe to buy Macbook Pros again. A Mac Pro release (which is likely at the same time) is going to be a footnote.

 

[OkiRun]

I don't think the Mac Pro is going to be a significant part of any briefing. That briefing happened at WWDC.

Any briefing this week is really going to be convincing everyone it's safe to buy Macbook Pros again. A Mac Pro release (which is likely at the same time) is going to be a footnote.

I agree. We are just waiting for numbers to drop and the website ready to take pre-orders. I suspect we will learn the instant this happens via email from Apple - that you can sign up for.

 

[fuchsdh]

Or how about just let the thread die when the new Mac Pro is released. 14K posts over 3 years is long enough.

The actual release should trigger a new thread(s) complaining , confusion , and celebrations with at least ordering ( if not running for a week or so ) the new equipment.

Agree that we should have a "7,1 ordering thread" or whatever to complain about BTO prices and the like.

Let this thread sail into history, hopefully never to be repeated...

and queue up the "waiting for 8,1" as soon as the first 7,1 is in a regular consumer's hand. See y'all there.

 

[AidenShaw]

BTW, last minute "leaks" confirm tomorrow as the cgmMP release, so tomorrow will rename this thread to "not waiting more for the ...."

Wouldn't it be premature to rename the thread before the A1991 is shipping next day? Prices could be announced tomorrow - but you could still be "waiting for the Mac Pro 7,1" for months.

 

[goMac]

Hearing through the grapevine that something is happening tomorrow.

We'll see. This week seems reasonable, I'm not sure personally how chances are tomorrow. But there is chatter about it.

 

[H. Flower]

After years and years of waiting ....

Has the day finally come!??!?!?!??