Waiting for the 2020 MBP

[koyoot]

In the context of AMD in Apple computers:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1205224101972979723

Van Gogh which appeared in Catalina Beta kexts is based on Zen 2 CPU cores and Navi/RDNA(FGX10) architecture.

None of official Zen 2 based APUs are getting RDNA iGPU. Renoir and Dali are both: Vega(GFX9).

Enjoy. It pretty much confirms that Van Gogh is Semi-Custom APU, ordered by Apple, and designed by AMD for Apple, only.

 

[Aquamite]

In the context of AMD in Apple computers:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1205224101972979723

Van Gogh which appeared in Catalina Beta kexts is based on Zen 2 CPU cores and Navi/RDNA(FGX10) architecture.

None of official Zen 2 based APUs are getting RDNA iGPU. Renoir and Dali are both: Vega(GFX9).

Enjoy. It pretty much confirms that Van Gogh is Semi-Custom APU, ordered by Apple, and designed by AMD for Apple, only.

Maybe for a next gen 13" MBP??

 

[koyoot]

Maybe for a next gen 13" MBP??

That AMD APU has 8 cores.

I don't want to burst the bubbly but its very unlikely that it is for 13 inch MBP.

 

[danwells]

Does LPDDR4x allow 64 GB of RAM? I know it's at least 32, but I don't know if it allows 64 as well.

 

[littlepud]

That AMD APU has 8 cores.

I don't want to burst the bubbly but its very unlikely that it is for 13 inch MBP.

There's a simpler explanation (i.e Occam's razor)...

Apple likely doesn't write drivers from scratch for its AMD GPUs. AMD probably provides drivers to Apple, and Apple re-packages them in the macOS releases. Driver packages from AMD happen to include support for most if not all AMD SKUs of a particular architecture generation(to facilitate development and/or porting from Windows).

It would be reasonable to think that any Navi-based GPU (including the iGPU on Navi-based APUs yet to be released) would use the same macOS driver.

 

[Falhófnir]

Does LPDDR4x allow 64 GB of RAM? I know it's at least 32, but I don't know if it allows 64 as well.

Doesn't look like it does (as yet anyway) I can't find an Intel chip that is listed as supporting 64GB/LPDDR4. Maybe 10th gen H might as they're the chips more likely to be paired with larger RAM amounts?

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...1060g7-processor-8m-cache-up-to-3-80-ghz.html

This chip has both listed but looks like up to 64GB might be only if using DDR4.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...1065g7-processor-8m-cache-up-to-3-90-ghz.html

 

[koyoot]

There's a simpler explanation (i.e Occam's razor)...

Apple likely doesn't write drivers from scratch for its AMD GPUs. AMD probably provides drivers to Apple, and Apple re-packages them in the macOS releases. Driver packages from AMD happen to include support for most if not all AMD SKUs of a particular architecture generation(to facilitate development and/or porting from Windows).

It would be reasonable to think that any Navi-based GPU (including the iGPU on Navi-based APUs yet to be released) would use the same macOS driver.

Simplest answer: nope.

Its Apple who writes the MacOS drivers in cooperation with AMD. Before Catalina there was never before support for AMD APUs. And now it is.

Secondly. Why would Semi-Custom product drivers land in Apple OS beta, even by mistake?

Semi-Custom products only appear in products that the specific companies order. PS5 and Xbox Series X's APUs are and will be different.

 

[impulse462]

Whatever the case if they switch to AMD CPUs it’ll suck for me because I use matlab a lot and their linear algebra tools are optimized for Intel.

I will say it’s annoying as **** that matlab has these Intel and Nvidia “agreements” for specific hardware to run code better. glad people are switching to python

 

[littlepud]

Simplest answer: nope.

Its Apple who writes the MacOS drivers in cooperation with AMD. Before Catalina there was never before support for AMD APUs. And now it is.

Secondly. Why would Semi-Custom product drivers land in Apple OS beta, even by mistake?

Semi-Custom products only appear in products that the specific companies order. PS5 and Xbox Series X's APUs are and will be different.

Has it been confirmed that VanGogh is a semi-custom APU and not a standard (but yet to be released) Ryzen 3 + Navi APU?

 

[jinnyman]

Although I'd love to have AMD CPU in desktops, I still don't believe AMD has an edge over Intel in Mobile segment. We will have to wait for 7nm version of AMD mobile chip is on market, but as of now, AMD is energy inefficient compared to what Intel is offering.

 

[limo79]

Microsoft also use a custom AMD chip but for a typical non gamer customer is much worse than Intel Ice Lake G7. Making it custom does not change that this is a low-end solution (and price of AMD version is much much lower than enterprise Intel Ice Lake version of Surface 3 laptop). So if Apple is going to use it I expect a significant price cutting versus current Intel Iris version and even that I am not sure if I will buy it without AX wireless card with the minimum result on the level like in Lenovo X1 Xtreme Gen 2 or MSI. If Apple will not be leading in terms of hardware again I say "adieu". And I hope that finally change milling angle because unibody edges are still too sharp.

 

[koyoot]

Has it been confirmed that VanGogh is a semi-custom APU and not a standard (but yet to be released) Ryzen 3 + Navi APU?

Where is it?

We have been laid whole AMD product roadmap, for 2020. Van Gogh is Zen 2 based APU that does not appear on any official product roadmap. It IS Semi-Custom product.

Want to know what confirms it even more?

Renoir and Dali APUs are Zen 2 based design: Renoir is 8C/16T design, and Dali is 4C/8T design. Both are Vega(GFX9) based as for iGPU.

Van Gogh is Zen 2 + Navi(GFX10). And whats more - it is based on RDNA2(!) architecture with GFX1032 architecture, which indicates that it indeed is RDNA2.

So now you have Zen 2 APU, that does not appear on any roadmap from AMD, packed with RDNA2 iGPU, where even desktop dGPUs are based on first iteration of RDNA.

And no. 2021 APUs are going to not be based on Zen 2. They will be based on Zen 3, with potentially RDNA. Van Gogh is Semi-Custom product, guys .

Microsoft also use a custom AMD chip but for a typical non gamer customer is much worse than Intel Ice Lake G7. Making it custom does not change that this is a low-end solution (and price of AMD version is much much lower than enterprise Intel Ice Lake version of Surface 3 laptop). So if Apple is going to use it I expect a significant price cutting versus current Intel Iris version and even that I am not sure if I will buy it without AX wireless card with the minimum result on the level like in Lenovo X1 Xtreme Gen 2 or MSI. If Apple will not be leading in terms of hardware again I say "adieu". And I hope that finally change milling angle because unibody edges are still too sharp.

You have clearly no idea what you are talking about. I suggest educating yourself on the matters of AMD products, why they are currently the best CPU company we have, and what Semi-Custom business actually is.

 

[littlepud]

Sounds like it might be a chip that would fit a next-generation 14" MBP.

 

[koyoot]

Sounds like it might be a chip that would fit a next-generation 14" MBP.

Why Van Gogh, being bigger than Renoir, which is 45W design, with 8 cores/16 threads, would be for 13/14 inch MBP?

Van Gogh is BIGGER than Renoir. And Renoir has 8C/16T and most likely - 15 Vega CU's. You know what this means?

Its not for 13/14 inch?

The closest thing, that will be for MBP 13/14 is Dali, or Semi-Custom product that is based on Dali design(4C/8T).

 

[awesomedeluxe]

In the context of AMD in Apple computers:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1205224101972979723

Van Gogh which appeared in Catalina Beta kexts is based on Zen 2 CPU cores and Navi/RDNA(FGX10) architecture.

None of official Zen 2 based APUs are getting RDNA iGPU. Renoir and Dali are both: Vega(GFX9).

Enjoy. It pretty much confirms that Van Gogh is Semi-Custom APU, ordered by Apple, and designed by AMD for Apple, only.

I... I want to believe.

So much.

I've been rooting for Apple to make this move so hard... Intel is just so stagnant in the 45W space and AMD is eager and willing to work with partners on custom designs. Knowing that AMD GPUs are a given for the foreseeable future why not also start using their (now superior) CPUs? Not to mention AMD would be happy to comply if Apple wanted to do something crazy like shove a stack of HBM 2 on there.

AMD's power management for mobile parts isn't great, but MS thinks it's worth the time and effort to just go in there and write the power management software themselves. What's stopping Apple? They have loads of software engineers who are clearly talented at doing this kind of work.

Enjoy. It pretty much confirms that Van Gogh is Semi-Custom APU, ordered by Apple, and designed by AMD for Apple, only.

But I am not so sure about this. It may be semi-semi-custom and being used by a few customers... I mean the grab from radeon software is a dll. And there is at least one other obvious customer named Microsoft who literally requested a Zen 2 + Navi APU years ago (Oberon iirc) and has a semi-custom AMD APU in a laptop right now.

Knowing a bit about how AMD works... I feel like what happened here is they are developing a "custom" part for Apple/MS that will then get announced as a new product available to other vendors around the same time a MBP 15 or Surface that already uses it is announced

 

[Falhófnir]

Sounds like it might be a chip that would fit a next-generation 14" MBP.

Hmm, while everyone (including myself) is navel gazing about a 14" Pro brought up to the same standard as the 16", so far the only concrete rumours we have say it's not going to happen:

While Kuo isn't infallible, he's the most reliable source we've got to go by, and the above is what he's saying for 2020. I don't want to add too much speculation back into a post grounding expectations, but based on this it looks to me like going forward the lineup will be:

16" - high end and most powerful model with dedicated graphics, H series CPUs
13 and 15" - mid tier with broadest appeal, U series and Iris graphics (?)
Air - most power efficient and portable and cheapest machine.

Apple Expected to Adopt Keyboard With Scissor Mechanism for Upcoming 16-inch MacBook Pro

Apple is planning to use a scissor mechanism rather than a butterfly mechanism for its upcoming 16-inch MacBook Pro, Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo said...

www.macrumors.com

 

[thimplicity]

I do not believe in the 13” story yet, but there are multiple foods reasons for it and Kuo is already wrong about the 15” in 2020. I don’t think they bring it back.

 

[Falhófnir]

I do not believe in the 13” story yet, but there are multiple foods reasons for it and Kuo is already wrong about the 15” in 2020. I don’t think they bring it back.

That's some impressive 2020 vision 😝

 

[thimplicity]

If they follow the iPad size logic on Kuos Chart, it would hint at 14“ for the MBP. One small consumer size and two larger pro sizes. Would make the portfolio more consistent. Same is true for the phones, although the sizing does not work out there.

 

[Howard2k]

I do not believe in the 13” story yet, but there are multiple foods reasons for it and Kuo is already wrong about the 15” in 2020. I don’t think they bring it back.

how can he already be wrong about what is speculated to happen next year?
And let’s say that we have a time machine and went forwards in time to confirm that he is wrong about the 15” in 2020, that doesn’t mean he’s wrong about the 13”.

 

[Falhófnir]

If they follow the iPad size logic on Kuos Chart, it would hint at 14“ for the MBP. One small consumer size and two larger pro sizes. Would make the portfolio more consistent. Same is true for the phones, although the sizing does not work out there.

If they do, but that's my point - that's nothing but speculation. The chart is Ming Chi Kuo's prediction for 2020 MacBook releases, and as yet it's the only thing we have to go on that is more than just speculation. Until more evidence comes to light, or Kuo releases a new note correcting himself, this is what we have to expect to be released over the next 12 months. Perhaps Kuo is wrong here, perhaps he was right at the time of release but Apple change their plans, perhaps his next note will reference a 14", but until then it's pure speculation.

To pick up on your point about having size options only at one price tier, in the case of the MacBooks, I actually think it would make sense for the size option to be in the middle, and this also fits with Kuo's prediction:

16" Pro - biggest, most powerful, most expensive. There's little room for a complimenting 14" here as they had trouble with even the 15" size with this class of machine and had to make it bigger.

13 and 15 inch Pros - would cover the broadest base of customers. Pretty powerful but not as break the bank expensive as the 16". As the most flexible machines it makes sense to have the size option here. At present there are two near identical 13" models, yet one is considerably more expensive. They could dump the more expensive 13" and put the 15" back in at its price point with roughly equivalent specs.

13" Air - small and focused on portability, battery life and is the cheapest/ entry level model.

 

[danwells]

I'd be less surprised to see a 15" Air (who knows how they'll badge it), but really thin and light - there are 15" Windows machines under 3 lbs - not especially powerful. It would be good enough for Mail, Safari, standard office work, but a real pain to edit photos and video on. Your basic 15W processor.

 

[limo79]

You have clearly no idea what you are talking about. I suggest educating yourself on the matters of AMD products, why they are currently the best CPU company we have, and what Semi-Custom business actually is.

I am using AMD products from first K7 based on DEC Alpha CPU but I am not CPU/GPU fanboy. They never were best CPU company in the world but just best price to performance ratio CPU company. Some products were great some terrible. In case of mobile platform they still behind Intel even they can integrate multiple cores and quite good integrated GPU. They are not business oriented (except server solutions like Epyc that are really good). So as long as AMD do not improve energy management, office performance, engineering calculations or wireless integration I do not care about colorful roadmaps and what they promise. Like in the same way I do not believe that Intel will release roadmap on time.

 

[Falhófnir]

I'd be less surprised to see a 15" Air (who knows how they'll badge it), but really thin and light - there are 15" Windows machines under 3 lbs - not especially powerful. It would be good enough for Mail, Safari, standard office work, but a real pain to edit photos and video on. Your basic 15W processor.

With a 15" Air they'd have to hit Air pricing (low $1,000s) but if they keep it a MBP they can charge MBP pricing for it (mid-high $1,000s). A way of tempting people to part with just a bit more money which seems to be the name of the game. I don't see a 15/28W iGPU 15" competing with the 45W dGPU 16" so if it cannibalises it will mostly be the cheaper 13" Pro and Air = win for Apple.

16" Pro - $2,399 (512GB)
15" Pro - $1,799 (256GB)
13" Pro - $1,499 (256GB)
13" Air - $1,099 (128GB)

 

[pneves1975]

With a 15" Air they'd have to hit Air pricing (low $1,000s) but if they keep it a MBP they can charge MBP pricing for it (mid-high $1,000s). A way of tempting people to part with just a bit more money which seems to be the name of the game. I don't see a 15/28W iGPU 15" competing with the 45W dGPU 16" so if it cannibalises it will mostly be the cheaper 13" Pro and Air = win for Apple.

16" Pro - $2,399 (512GB)
15" Pro - $1,799 (256GB)
13" Pro - $1,499 (256GB)
13" Air - $1,099 (128GB)

Now that would be something! I like the 15" screen, but hate the heat from dedicated graphics. Such a machine would be awesome for my needs. Apple at one time did a 15" with integrated graphics, a core2duo 2.53GHz if I recall, and it was ok for office and light work, even some image processing. Call it non PRO or whatever, that would be a dream machine for me. 13" is just too small.

Will they ever do it again???