Wanting to get a nMP soon. when is the 7,1 coming out?

[handsome pete]

Plug and play is for the iMac folks, performance is what the Mac Pro is all about.

Performance, stability, and reliability. Also, swapping out RAM, hard drives, and PCIe cards is a bit different than taking all of those parts (along with motherboard, PSU, CPU, fans, etc.) and cramming them into a chassis and get it up and running. And that's overlooking that most workstation purchases are rarely upgraded. Face it, we're a niche group.

How stable? Really stable. 4.5 Ghz OC on the CPU, 1500 Mhz OC on the GPU, Ram is 2400Mhz with latency reduced to 13. It hasn't crashed once and the only issues I notice is I have to press the keyboard to come out of sleep mode instead of being able to move the mouse around.

That doesn't answer the question. What are you doing with your "workstation" that tests the stability? Just telling us it hasn't crashed doesn't mean anything without qualifying it.



Again, no one is saying building is a bad option. It's just not realistic for many. And I agree with what was said above. If you're going to build a machine, then you might as well just go Windows. I prefer OSX too, but these days OS specific software is rare and when you're working in that software, the OS becomes almost invisible. And the reliability factor as well.

 

[Sharky II]

Use kb to come out of sleep mode? maybe its a design choice then.

Yes, on my MBP i have to click the trackpad, i can't just touch it to wake up the screen. On my Mac Pro, i can't just move the Kensington trackball, i have to click it or touch keyboard key to get the screen on. It does come on with the Apple trackpad, though.

 

[ToroidalZeus]

Performance, stability, and reliability. Also, swapping out RAM, hard drives, and PCIe cards is a bit different than taking all of those parts (along with motherboard, PSU, CPU, fans, etc.) and cramming them into a chassis and get it up and running. And that's overlooking that most workstation purchases are rarely upgraded. Face it, we're a niche group.

if you are going to go through the hassle of swapping ram, changing hard drives / ssds (and installing the OS), changing the graphic card... maybe even upgrading the CPU then you are 75% of the way to building a new PC from scratch.

doesn't answer the question. What are you doing with your "workstation" that tests the stability? Just telling us it hasn't crashed doesn't mean anything without qualifying it.


914], no one is saying building is a bad option. It's just not realistic for many. And I agree with what was said above. If you're going to build a machine, then you might as well just go Windows. I prefer OSX too, but these days OS specific software is rare and when you're working in that software, the OS becomes almost invisible. And the reliability factor as well.

OS X runs natively on X86_64 Intel hardware right now. Why is it so hard to believe that it'd be perfectly stable?

the issues are getting the OS to install / figuring out the right settings to boot
and
getting drivers--especially audio--working right.

stability isn't an issue tho.

Yes, on my MBP i have to click the trackpad, i can't just touch it to wake up the screen. On my Mac Pro, i can't just move the Kensington trackball, i have to click it or touch keyboard key to get the screen on. It does come on with the Apple trackpad, though.

makes sense. accidentally knocking the mouse and coming out of sleep mode seems like an issue apple would fix.

 

[reco2011]

if you are going to go through the hassle of swapping ram, changing hard drives / ssds (and installing the OS), changing the graphic card... maybe even upgrading the CPU then you are 75% of the way to building a new PC from scratch.

I'm not clear on what it is you're advocating. Are you advocating people who use their systems professionally consider a hackintosh?

 

[ToroidalZeus]

I'm not clear on what it is you're advocating. Are you advocating people who use their systems professionally consider a hackintosh?

we have gone off-topic

I'm saying 100% don't get a current mac pro because its overpriced for the performance, obsolete and won't be upgradable in the key areas of cpu and especially especially gpu so when 4k-5k is mainstream in the next few years the current system will look like a dinosaur. In short it was worth a consideration last year but things have changed now.

 

[reco2011]

we have gone off-topic

I'm saying 100% don't get a current mac pro because its overpriced for the performance, obsolete and won't be upgradable in the key areas of cpu and especially especially gpu so when 4k-5k is mainstream in the next few years the current system will look like a dinosaur.

I'm not sure what this means? Is it your recommendation they shouldn't get one? Or is it your recommendation they don't understand the current Mac Pro (as in they don't "get it")?

 

[handsome pete]

if you are going to go through the hassle of swapping ram, changing hard drives / ssds (and installing the OS), changing the graphic card... maybe even upgrading the CPU then you are 75% of the way to building a new PC from scratch.

********. I can swap out ram, a hard drive, and toss in a new GPU in under 10 minutes. You conveniently added the CPU to the mix, but as I already stated most workstation users don't upgrade to begin with let alone venture into a trickier upgrade like the CPU.

OS X runs natively on X86_64 Intel hardware right now. Why is it so hard to believe that it'd be perfectly stable?

the issues are getting the OS to install / figuring out the right settings to boot
and
getting drivers--especially audio--working right.

stability isn't an issue tho.

We're not talking about just the OS. You're talking about desktop CPUS, overclocking, etc. Of course there's better value if we're strictly talking dollars, but that's not usually the primary concern for the users buying workstations. Again, what are you using your machine for?

 

[Korican100]

After reading my thread which has ultimately become a hackintosh vs Mac debate, I have a question.

So the GPU's of the nMP can't be upgraded? This maybe a dealbreaker for me. Exactly how relevant will these gpu's be in 3-4 years?

 

[reco2011]

After reading my thread which has ultimately become a hackintosh vs Mac debate, I have a question.

So the GPU's of the nMP can't be upgraded? This maybe a dealbreaker for me. Exactly how relevant will these gpu's be in 3-4 years?

Technically there's nothing preventing you from upgrading them as long as someone makes a replacement card. However they're not upgradable in the traditional sense.

 

[goMac]

After reading my thread which has ultimately become a hackintosh vs Mac debate, I have a question.

So the GPU's of the nMP can't be upgraded? This maybe a dealbreaker for me. Exactly how relevant will these gpu's be in 3-4 years?

I don't think we'll know until the next one is announced if they can be upgraded.

If Apple doesn't announce an upgrade program, that'll be one strike. If the GPUs aren't compatible parts if you want to do the swap yourself, that'll be another.

According to Apple, the 5770 and the 5870 can't be used in a 2006-2008 Mac Pro, so we'll see how that settles out.

 

[Gav Mack]

After reading my thread which has ultimately become a hackintosh vs Mac debate, I have a question.

So the GPU's of the nMP can't be upgraded? This maybe a dealbreaker for me. Exactly how relevant will these gpu's be in 3-4 years?

Has it? I am aiming for a 12 core 3.46 5,1 with hopefully a single GTX980 flashed or perhaps a pair of AMD cards down-clocked. 96Gb max RAM and a PCIe Apple SSD too eventually.

I am more than happy enough for the loss of single core performance for having the upgrade path to use faster and faster GPU in a genuine Macintosh. When the 5,1 is EOL then perhaps I will pose that question to myself again but not now. Hopefully by then some bright sparks will design a Xeon open firmware board with a riser processor card system to fit a certain chassis and I will buy one on kickstarter.

 

[Derpage]

After reading my thread which has ultimately become a hackintosh vs Mac debate, I have a question.

So the GPU's of the nMP can't be upgraded? This maybe a dealbreaker for me. Exactly how relevant will these gpu's be in 3-4 years?

They had one foot in the grave before the machine was even released.

 

[reco2011]

Has it? I am aiming for a 12 core 3.46 5,1 with hopefully a single GTX980 flashed or perhaps a pair of AMD cards down-clocked. 96Gb max RAM and a PCIe Apple SSD too eventually.

I am more than happy enough for the loss of single core performance for having the upgrade path to use faster and faster GPU in a genuine Macintosh. When the 5,1 is EOL then perhaps I will pose that question to myself again but not now. Hopefully by then some bright sparks will design a Xeon open firmware board with a riser processor card system to fit a certain chassis and I will buy one on kickstarter.

Do you mean EOL wrt OS X?

 

[Gav Mack]

Do you mean EOL wrt OS X?

Yep - when official OS X support for upgrades ends for the 5,1 but there is usually another 4-5 years after that. Though as you can clearly see there are many 1,1 and 2,1 's here running 10.10 with minor mods.

Plenty of time and life in the old cheese graters yet.

 

[nox-uk]

After reading my thread which has ultimately become a hackintosh vs Mac debate, I have a question.

So the GPU's of the nMP can't be upgraded? This maybe a dealbreaker for me. Exactly how relevant will these gpu's be in 3-4 years?

Depends what you consider viable. Around four years ago Nvidia released their 500 series. I bought a 570 GTX shortly after release. I'm still using it in our gaming PC, driving two monitors and two games simultaneously. I have no intention of upgrading it. I had a 680 but the games I played were running at the same speed so it got sold. Benchmarks will show the gpus are way faster, and the score will 'prove' it. But in real use? I don't know. If you game then 3-4 years is a long time for gpu, but they are probably still usable. If you don't they will certainly drive your pro unless a breakthrough happens and we all have 40k resolution monitors!

There is also the possibility thunderbolt egpus will become better supported - and those are 80-90% of the performance of an internally mounted currently.

Nox

 

[Gav Mack]

Depends what you consider viable. Around four years ago Nvidia released their 500 series. I bought a 570 GTX shortly after release. I'm still using it in our gaming PC, driving two monitors and two games simultaneously. I have no intention of upgrading it. I had a 680 but the games I played were running at the same speed so it got sold. Benchmarks will show the gpus are way faster, and the score will 'prove' it. But in real use? I don't know. If you game then 3-4 years is a long time for gpu, but they are probably still usable. If you don't they will certainly drive your pro.

There is also the possibility thunderbolt egpus will become better supported - and those are 80-90% of the performance of an internally mounted currently.

Nox

TB3 and port aggregation bonding the channels will bring forth the onset of the external GPU box hooked up to the nMP scenario, the 8,1 onwards at an educated guess.

 

[AidenShaw]

TB3 and port aggregation bonding the channels will bring forth the onset of the external GPU box hooked up to the nMP scenario, the 8,1 onwards at an educated guess.

But by then, expect that PCIe 4.0 will be the standard, and T-Bolt 3 will still be woefully slower than internal expansion.

 

[ToroidalZeus]

After reading my thread which has ultimately become a hackintosh vs Mac debate, I have a question.

So the GPU's of the nMP can't be upgraded? This maybe a dealbreaker for me. Exactly how relevant will these gpu's be in 3-4 years?

Important.

The issue comes down to this:

4K = 4x 1080p
5k = 4x 1440p

So making the jump from 1080p/1440p to 4k/5k--with the same/comparable performance--requires a 4 times more graphical hp.

Industry has been stable at 1080p for the last decade and 1440p for the last few years; so people were not as disadvantaged having old graphic card in the last years. But with Apple releasing the 5K iMac the resolution wars have began. In 3 years just about everyone looking for a PC in the Mac Pro price bracket will be running 4k or greater monitors.

Mac Pro is underpowered for 4k and will never run 5k.

 

[VirtualRain]

Mac Pro is underpowered for 4k and will never run 5k.

Underpowered for 4K? Nonsense.

And the nMP could very well drive the upcoming Dell 5K display with a pair of DP outputs. Never say Never.

It's clear you love Hacks but your rhetoric is getting a bit silly.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

But by then, expect that PCIe 4.0 will be the standard, and T-Bolt 3 will still be woefully slower than internal expansion.

The latest PCIe Scaling on a GTX 980 shows that even PCIe 1 can still give decent performance. Thunderbolt 3 won't have much of an issue, but won't ever give 100% performance and there's latency.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GTX_980_PCI-Express_Scaling/1.html

For the majority of games, there is no significant performance difference between x16 3.0 and x8 3.0 (and x16 2.0, which offers the same bandwidth). The average difference is only 1%, which you'd never notice. Even such bandwidth-restricted scenario as x16 1.1 or x8 2.0, offered by seriously old motherboards, only saw a small difference of around 5%. The same goes for x4 3.0, which is the bandwidth offered by the x4 slots on some recent motherboards. It's worth noting here that not all x4 slots are wired to the CPU. Some of the cheaper motherboards have their PCIe x16 (electrical x4) slots wired to the chipset instead of the CPU, which could severely clog the chipset bus (the connection between the CPU and the chipset, limited to a mere 2 GB/s on the Intel platform). Refer to the block-diagram in your motherboard's manual.

Real performance losses only become apparent in x8 1.1 and x4 2.0, where the performance drop becomes noticeable with around 15%. We also tested x4 1.1, though of more academic interest, and saw performance drop by up to 25%, an indicator that PCIe bandwidth can't be constrained indefinitely without a serious loss in performance.

Some of the benchmarks

http://tpucdn.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GTX_980_PCI-Express_Scaling/images/alienisolation_3840_2160.gif


It can vary significantly based on use and games though, as noted that with CryEngine based games PCIe v1 can lose a 1/3 performance compared to the newer slots. Which is significant to say the least.

External GPU's are getting better, but they need a lot of work to ever get close to internal expansion. Something that'll most likely never happen unless there's a breakthrough most likely.

 

[calaverasgrande]

Mac Pro is underpowered for 4k and will never run 5k.

care to explain that?
I was under the impression it could run multiple 4k displays.

As has been shown in multiple threads, the problem the 2013 Mac Pro has with 4k isn't ability to drive 4k displays, it's that Apple has only validated a handful of 4k displays. The rest (mostly the more affordable ones) may only run 30hz on OS X. But are just dandy at 60hz when booted into windows form the same Mac Pro.
It's a driver issue, not a hardware issue.

Quite a lot of folks are sitting on their hands waiting for Apple to either release a new TBD which utilizes TB2 and has more useful ports on the back (USB 3 for one!). A lot of us are also hoping they work with folks at Asus, LG and yes even Samsung to iron out these SST/MST and 30hz/60hz issues. Or in the case of LG make the wider aspect ratio monitors work!

 

[nox-uk]

No clue about 5k on the nMP, but it can push three 4k displays...

Nox

 

[ToroidalZeus]

care to explain that?
I was under the impression it could run multiple 4k displays.

As has been shown in multiple threads, the problem the 2013 Mac Pro has with 4k isn't ability to drive 4k displays, it's that Apple has only validated a handful of 4k displays. The rest (mostly the more affordable ones) may only run 30hz on OS X. But are just dandy at 60hz when booted into windows form the same Mac Pro.
It's a driver issue, not a hardware issue.

Quite a lot of folks are sitting on their hands waiting for Apple to either release a new TBD which utilizes TB2 and has more useful ports on the back (USB 3 for one!). A lot of us are also hoping they work with folks at Asus, LG and yes even Samsung to iron out these SST/MST and 30hz/60hz issues. Or in the case of LG make the wider aspect ratio monitors work!

It can run 4K displays no problem but doing work is another issue. The 2GB and 3GB D500s are painfully limited; the D700 is in a better shape with 6GB of VRAM but that's going to be nothing compared to the graphic cards in 2 or 3 years.

The CPU, unless you go with the 8 core, isn't that strong either.

Basically the current Mac Pro is going to be one of the fastest Mac Pros to become obsolete, somewhere just a little better then the G5s.

 

[VirtualRain]

It can run 4K displays no problem but doing work is another issue. The 2GB and 3GB D500s are painfully limited;

Wrong.

----------

The CPU, unless you go with the 8 core, isn't that strong either.

Wrong.

 

[riggles]

Technically there's nothing preventing you from upgrading them as long as someone makes a replacement card. However they're not upgradable in the traditional sense.

Unless someone does make a replacement card, there is something technically preventing people from upgrading.