WARNING: Do not upgrade to Mojave if you have any non-retina screens!

[Crunch]

Well, my point is that with a NEWER OS, there shouldn't be ANY degradation in quality with something as BASIC as font smoothing or sub-pixel rendering or whatever the hell it's called.

And how basic is it to want to be able to READ TEXT equally as well as the previous OS. It's infuriating.

 

[Spectrum]

Here is the weird thing....I run high Sierra and Sierra on non retina and retina screens.
I find, surprisingly, that fonts look sharper and crisper with the 'LCD font smoothing' option turned OFF in system preferences.

So my question really, is: has Mojave actually changed anything? Or is it just a new font, because to my eyes things are actually better with it off on earlier Version of macOS.

 

[Crunch]

Here is the weird thing....I run high Sierra and Sierra on non retina and retina screens.
I find, surprisingly, that fonts look sharper and crisper with the 'LCD font smoothing' option turned OFF in system preferences.

So my question really, is: has Mojave actually changed anything? Or is it just a new font, because to my eyes things are actually better with it off on earlier Version of macOS.

Interesting. Well, I would love to finally upgrade to Mojave. I'm just going to throw it on one of my external SSDs and see what happens.

I wonder if there are any other surprises. For now, the LCD font issue is a moot point for me as I got rid of my 1440p monitor, but I just don't like Apple's continuous efforts to push us into a certain direction, and to me, it's transparently obvious what that direction is.

Side note: I would love to discuss what the aforementioned direction is, but it'll get me in trouble on here, as it has before. Funny when a thread is closed, there is NO WAY to respond to those (mods, supervisors, whatever) who shut it down, even though a place for a response is there and it is held out that a response is encouraged. What a joke. That ends my brief digression.

One more quick question: During my travels, I will once again have to use a 1080p monitor as an external monitor here and there. I just would love it if I could have the peace of mind that there WON'T BE any degradation in my ability to read text. I cannot believe I'm typing this concern. And I do prefer the font smoothing in the ON position.

Thanks.

 

[ignatius345]

Who doesn't have a retina Mac at this point? Everyone must, and if you don't really you must upgrade now. There's no excuse.

That you, Tim Cook?

 

[MadDawg2020]

Yeah I noticed it on my non-Retina, don't really care all that much to be honest.

Here's an excuse: I need a Pro laptop that's actually a Pro laptop, not some glued together POS I can't even run twin HDD's in

Funny - I have a MacBook PRO , and I edit video professionally and I constantly move terabytes of data around for clients who pay me for my Professional services, 1TB of internal storage is adequate for me needs. I capture and edit 4K RAW footage, process 150mb TIFF files and render video all day longnever once has my MacBook Pro failed me and I’ve never heard of anyone who has actually used one professionally call it a “glued together POS”, in fact I often get comments at how fast the machine can do whatever job I throw at it, and I have never never had an issue using an external drive, pretty simple actually!

 

[tromboneaholic]

Funny - I have a MacBook PRO , and I edit video professionally and I constantly move terabytes of data around for clients who pay me for my Professional services, 1TB of internal storage is adequate for me needs. I capture and edit 4K RAW footage, process 150mb TIFF files and render video all day longnever once has my MacBook Pro failed me and I’ve never heard of anyone who has actually used one professionally call it a “glued together POS”, in fact I often get comments at how fast the machine can do whatever job I throw at it, and I have never never had an issue using an external drive, pretty simple actually!

I don’t think they understand how much horsepower it takes to work with 4K video with multiple effects and not dropping frames. If they did need that kind of power, they would have upgraded their machines by now.

 

[puma1552]

Here is the weird thing....I run high Sierra and Sierra on non retina and retina screens.
I find, surprisingly, that fonts look sharper and crisper with the 'LCD font smoothing' option turned OFF in system preferences.

So my question really, is: has Mojave actually changed anything? Or is it just a new font, because to my eyes things are actually better with it off on earlier Version of macOS.

Funny, I have always had font smoothing turned on - UNTIL I got Mojave, and to me it positively looks better with it OFF now - smoother/thinner/crisper/sharper.

That said, on or off doesn't make much difference on my 1920 x 1200 Apple Cinema Display - fonts look fine in certain places, clearly degraded in others. That said, they aren't degraded to the point the display is unusable by any means.

 

[Hater]

I don’t think they understand how much horsepower it takes to work with 4K video with multiple effects and not dropping frames. If they did need that kind of power, they would have upgraded their machines by now.

Nobody edits professionally on a laptop. Think about it.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Nobody edits professionally on a laptop. Think about it.

Actually there are times in the field I’ve had no choice. Baby Driver was edited on a MacBook Pro on location to make sure the scenes matched up to the music. Granted they were just rough cuts.

But in general I agree a laptop is the right tool for the job.

 

[Hater]

Actually there are times in the field I’ve had no choice. Baby Driver was edited on a MacBook Pro on location to make sure the scenes matched up to the music. Granted they were just rough cuts.

But in general I agree a laptop is the right tool for the job.

Hence two pre-2013 MBP's stuffed with 5TB HDD's. That's more about keeping memory cards empty though. (Err this is personal stuff, works all HP Z640's/840's)

and that was an Early 2015 MBP for a full length feature film... pretty sure a humble quad i7 late 2012 is good enough for any of the crap I pull together, heh.

 

[strawbale]

Fonts no problem on my new 24" QHD - very crisp! #294

 

[Spectrum]

Funny, I have always had font smoothing turned on - UNTIL I got Mojave, and to me it positively looks better with it OFF now - smoother/thinner/crisper/sharper.

That said, on or off doesn't make much difference on my 1920 x 1200 Apple Cinema Display - fonts look fine in certain places, clearly degraded in others. That said, they aren't degraded to the point the display is unusable by any means.

Yes. Me too. But all this talk about the fonts in Mojave got me looking into it, and I now think the fonts look thinner, sharper and crisper (on S and HS) with LCD (subpixel) font smoothing off. And that is true of both retina and non retina.

Things may have changed...I was on Snow Leopard for years..and back then there were multiple smoothing options available not just on or off. So maybe that is what has changed.

Anyway, I reported a while ago that an LG retina screen looked like junk (non scaled resolution) in an Apple store. But now I wonder if it was purely because font smoothing was ON.

My colleague's 2017 MBPro (Sierra) also looks worse (to me) with font smoothing on.

 

[aZZaneko]

I still haven't had a problem with the fonts after upgrading from HS to Mojave a while ago. If I had the time and money I would consider taking violin lessons for the people who are still unhappy about the supposed Mojave font issue but I don't have the time or the money for it.

I'm glad to hear this update went well for you personally. Have you considered a possibility that depending on the hardware & software people use, their experience may actually be different?

I could live with the way the interface looked personally, most of web browsing also worked fine. The VSCode and Telegram – 2 applications I use for many hours every day – looked bloody awful though. It was not a matter of taste, the text in the main content areas appeared borderline unreadable.

defaults write -g CGFontRenderingFontSmoothingDisabled -bool FALSE
defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain AppleFontSmoothing -int 2

Running these commands in the terminal has made the text readable again, unfortunately I'm now experiencing a 'black text with white shadow' issue from time to time. The examples below are from a mounted dwg and the sidebar of an application but similar thing happened with few small red labels on youtube. Happened on 2 different non-retina external monitors so far.

 

[Panthera Tigris Altaica]

The subpixel font rendering engine that used to produce beautiful fonts on macOS is gone! There are a few "fixes" floating around here, they don't bring the old engine back and the results are not acceptable in my opinion. Let me save you the 2 day restore process I am in the middle of downgrading to High Sierra.

I am currently viewing this site on a standard 1920x1080 LG 24" display attached to a 2012 Mac mini which runs Mohave. Next to it is my Asus laptop running Win10. Next to that is another 24" LG display attached to a 2012 Mac mini running High Sierra. Yes, there is a difference between the displays on the two Macs, but I have to look very closely to see it. They both trounce the Asus. Mojave didn't make enough of a difference, at least under my setup, for me to notice under normal use. The phrase 'making a mountain out of a molehill' comes forcibly to mind.
[doublepost=1543931076][/doublepost]

People who use the Air and external monitors. Airs are sold currently. No reason to alienate them and external monitor users.

I use external monitors almost exclusively, as most Macs around here are Mac minis. I hadn't noticed the 'problem' until I saw this thread.
[doublepost=1543931415][/doublepost]

Irrational scaremongering.

Your headline almost induces fight-or-flight response in people, while in fact the issue is mildly concerning.

So far as I can see it does not even rise to the level of mild concern. I can see differences if I look for them, but I have to _look_ for them. As far as I am concerned this is a non-issue.
[doublepost=1543931565][/doublepost]

It can be incredibly jarring. Personally I think it is a big deal.

I didn't even notice it existed until I saw this thread.

 

[StellarVixen]

I am currently viewing this site on a standard 1920x1080 LG 24" display attached to a 2012 Mac mini which runs Mohave. Next to it is my Asus laptop running Win10. Next to that is another 24" LG display attached to a 2012 Mac mini running High Sierra. Yes, there is a difference between the displays on the two Macs, but I have to look very closely to see it. They both trounce the Asus. Mojave didn't make enough of a difference, at least under my setup, for me to notice under normal use. The phrase 'making a mountain out of a molehill' comes forcibly to mind.
[doublepost=1543931076][/doublepost]
I use external monitors almost exclusively, as most Macs around here are Mac minis. I hadn't noticed the 'problem' until I saw this thread.
[doublepost=1543931415][/doublepost]
So far as I can see it does not even rise to the level of mild concern. I can see differences if I look for them, but I have to _look_ for them. As far as I am concerned this is a non-issue.
[doublepost=1543931565][/doublepost]
I didn't even notice it existed until I saw this thread.

To me, the difference is obvious, especially with the Dark Mode turned on.

But the old subpixel antialiasing engine is still there, just need to be enabled again, so there is no reason for panic as this thread calls for.

 

[Panthera Tigris Altaica]

To me, the difference is obvious, especially with the Dark Mode turned on.

But the old subpixel antialiasing engine is still there, just need to be enabled again, so there is no reason for panic as this thread calls for.

I just applied that command line 'fix'. Still can't see a significant difference either way. People are taking this seriously enough to not upgrade? Really?

Takes all kinds, I suppose.

 

[Rocko99991]

I just applied that command line 'fix'. Still can't see a significant difference either way. People are taking this seriously enough to not upgrade? Really?

Takes all kinds, I suppose.

Oh, because you don't 'see' it or are having the problem, everyone else that does is invalidated. Yeah, all kinds...

 

[Panthera Tigris Altaica]

Oh, because you don't 'see' it or are having the problem, everyone else that does is invalidated. Yeah, all kinds...

I see a difference. It's not a significant problem.

 

[Rocko99991]

I see a difference. It's not a significant problem.

For you. You being the key word.

 

[csiking]

I'm using 10.14.1 on my Late 2013 iMac non-retina. Why did Apple remove subpixel anti-aliasing? Why didn't they just leave it alone and include it as an option for those with non-retina screens. Makes no sense at all.

Because Apple has had it's head up it's arse for years when it comes to making the OS functional...seems they hired a bunch of Windows people so they can make is 'simple' Maybe some day they'll refocus on their core products instead of their stupid phones.

 

[EugW]

Because Apple has had it's head up it's arse for years when it comes to making the OS functional...seems they hired a bunch of Windows people so they can make is 'simple' Maybe some day they'll refocus on their core products instead of their stupid phones.

Windows has sub-pixel anti-aliasing.

So, why did Mac OS X remove it? I'm no expert, but I've been reading some comments out there from developers, and they say from a purely design point of view, in the world of Retina screens it makes logical sense not to use it. Sub-pixel anti-aliasing offers no real advantage for Retina screens. For non-Retina screens, it's a big advantage, but it's also a real PITA to implement, and such implementations can cause many problems if not done completely correctly. So from an OS design perspective where the future is all Retina, it makes sense not to have sub-pixel anti-aliasing at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17477526

But of course, Apple STILL sells non-Retina Macs, and people buy non-Retina screen to use with their Macs too.

Maybe once 10.15 comes out I'll invest in an external 5K, screen. I have a 2010 iMac 27" I'm using as an external monitor for my 2017 Retina iMac 27". The 2010 2.5K screen looked bad enough already, but without sub-pixel anti-aliasing, it looks even worse, esp. sitting next to that Retina iMac 2017. I've turned sub-pixel anti-aliasing back on, but even then, the difference in text quality is huge. Plus, with a 2.5K screen, I can't use non-native screen resolutions. If I got a external 5K screen, I would be able to change the screen resolution on both screens at will. I also suspect a later iteration of macOS (10.15 or 10.16?) will no longer support turning on sub-pixel anti-aliasing.

 

[MarkC426]

As I don’t have a touch screen mac, I have no need for a retina display, I prefer native rez.
I can’t zoom in/out like on my ipad, so all is good for me......
OS ui and apps look the same with HS and Mojave to me, but i’m not specifically looking at every font for a problem.

 

[Panthera Tigris Altaica]

For you. You being the key word.

Not just for me. The vast majority don't care.

 

[StellarVixen]

One more thing, the choice of typography is important factors how legible text will be, and, in my opinion, San Francisco is one of the worst fonts for desktop OS.

Take for example Lucida Grande, very nice with font smoothing both ON and OFF:

 

[YaBe]

Be happy that in Mac OS world you can still "downgrade" to previews version, it will come the day they won't let you downgrade once you upgraded, like in iOS world.

Yes they will tell you it is for your "safety" and for your "privacy", it will come.