Wedding photography - absolute noob needs advice

[Marlat]

Man! You guys definitly rock! So much awesomeness here!
Sorry for my late answer, had some sleep to catch up

But thanks everyone! Some great ideas and many new things for me to think over.

I guess first thing next week will be a visit to the bride and groom. This will clear things up for me.

 

[SecondDealer]

The only good picture I've ever taken at a wedding is the one below.

 

[gerlan]

Hi Marlat- Things already seem to be getting out of hand- I'm sure your friends only expect some extra photos- you can relax as any pressure is on the Pro. Previous advice is all good, however at the risk of upsetting any enthusiasts i would recommend...
1) set camera to auto (yes auto!)...
2) concentrate on composition (and not missing the 'candids')..most of your photos can be improved on your computer to a very satisfactory standard as you're not expecting to produce poster size prints to Pro quality (trust your camera). The Freeware such as Picassa will produce acceptable results 90% of the time. If you remain calm and relaxed your photos will be better for it!
3)Yes, introduce yourself to the Pro- He/She won't mind when you make it clear that their work is paramount. Do allow the Pro to take some 'unique' shots ie They will probably shepherd the couple away to a quiet spot, so give them space while you then look for relaxed candids.
4) Weddings are fantastic opportunities for recording family reunions- it's amazing how many families don't have 'recent' photos- Groom/Parents, Uncle/Aunt with their children, Grandparents/Grandchildren, 3 generations, Bridesmaids etc You will be surprised at how grateful people will be!
5) keep thinking backdrop/framing/compostion ie how can i make photo more interesting- just moving someone 10 feet can make all the difference.
6) Any flash will be better than onboard flash but I suspect you will use flash a lot (social gatherings?) so invest!
7) If you like photographing people- 85mm prime lens excellent choice, faster the better?
8) It's all become too serious, relax, you're probably the only person making an issue of it?

 

[Marlat]

Hi Marlat- Things already seem to be getting out of hand- I'm sure your friends only expect some extra photos- you can relax as any pressure is on the Pro. Previous advice is all good, however at the risk of upsetting any enthusiasts i would recommend...
1) set camera to auto (yes auto!)...
2) concentrate on composition (and not missing the 'candids')..most of your photos can be improved on your computer to a very satisfactory standard as you're not expecting to produce poster size prints to Pro quality (trust your camera). The Freeware such as Picassa will produce acceptable results 90% of the time. If you remain calm and relaxed your photos will be better for it!
3)Yes, introduce yourself to the Pro- He/She won't mind when you make it clear that their work is paramount. Do allow the Pro to take some 'unique' shots ie They will probably shepherd the couple away to a quiet spot, so give them space while you then look for relaxed candids.
4) Weddings are fantastic opportunities for recording family reunions- it's amazing how many families don't have 'recent' photos- Groom/Parents, Uncle/Aunt with their children, Grandparents/Grandchildren, 3 generations, Bridesmaids etc You will be surprised at how grateful people will be!
5) keep thinking backdrop/framing/compostion ie how can i make photo more interesting- just moving someone 10 feet can make all the difference.
6) Any flash will be better than onboard flash but I suspect you will use flash a lot (social gatherings?) so invest!
7) If you like photographing people- 85mm prime lens excellent choice, faster the better?
8) It's all become too serious, relax, you're probably the only person making an issue of it?

Could you elaborate why I should set the camera to auto?

As for number 2, I got Adobe Photoshop CS4 and am quite good at retouching my pictures.

Regarding number 3: the pro photog will shoot the bride and groom alone. As I understood the groom it will be something like this: after the ceremony in the church the families and friends will walk over to the party place (guess one could call it so) while the pro shooter takes some staged photos of the bride and groom.

Number 7 is almost impossible. The Pentax 85mm F1.4 lens costs round 1400 dollar, if there is one on ebay. And thats almost never. So I have to rely on my 50mm F1.4 and the soon arriving 70-200m F2.8. Thats the fastest I can and will afford.

And finally: I'm making an issue out of it, because the bride and groom asked me personally that I take nice pictures for them. That puts alot of pressure on me - you are right, there will be many more who'll take pictures. But none of them were asked directly to deliver some high quality pics. And I'm qouting the groom here.

But oh well, maybe I should relax a bit

 

[anubis]

Hmm... a bit of a bizarre request from the B&G if you ask me... one of two things is going on here.. either there's a miscommunication and they don't actually want you to be the "second shooter" and just want to make sure they have people other than the pro taking pictures from a guest's point of view, OR they don't have any confidence that the pro will be able to capture the pictures they want.

The first scenario makes more sense, and may have used the term "second shooter" in a less literal sense, whereas you're interpreting their request very literally as "be the second pro photographer".

I guess the second scenario could happen, in which case we're left wondering why exactly they're paying a pro photographer to take pictures they think they won't even like.

Either way, as many others have already expressed, the pro photographer will not allow you to take pictures of scenes that he or she has arranged, and will be very annoyed if you try to shadow him or her all day and will probably ask you to leave.

Many, if not most, professional photographers require B&Gs to sign a contract that explicitly prohibits having a "second shooter". Additionally, contracts often contain clauses that prohibit allowing guests to use their cameras during the formal shots, etc. I certainly require my clients to sign such a contract. Of course, on the other hand, guests are certainly expected to take pictures of the ceremony while they are seated, and of the reception while they are mingling with the other guests. That's what I suggest you do. You will be able to take lots of great pictures in this capacity. But taking time with the B&G to do your own portraits with them will be seen by the pro as "stealing" his or her time with them. It would also be very bad for you to be walking around during the ceremony. The pro should be the only one out of their seat.

Hope this helps! You should talk with the B&G to very clearly articulate your expectations and let them know that while you will do your best to take photos, you won't have the same level of access as the pro and therefore they should not expect professional-level pictures.

 

[MacNoobie]

After shooting weddings assisting a pro in the business the B&G are getting into a remarkable grey area. The pro's I've worked with all want the guests to f*** off literally during formals. I've seen friends and families countless times whip out their P&S before and after a pro's setup a line up of people for formals and its pissed a pro off since he's getting his shots and being distracted by the brides sisters friend yelling at her for a shot for her camera now. Being a second shooter or trying to shadow the pro's shots is almost always going to piss the pro off even if they say otherwise because people have a problem with ok I see two people with fancy cameras so who do I look at.

My advice is to observe, just simply observe and have your camera at all times around your neck because you might get a shot that the pro wouldn't otherwise get. I also wouldn't stand behind the pro with your camera during formals lets say waiting till he's shot to get yours in because this will undoubtedly piss the pro off.

Lens wise a good wide angle is always good a moderate normal lens ~24-70+ range and a good telephoto like a 70-200ish would also help.

 

[Marlat]

Hmm... a bit of a bizarre request from the B&G if you ask me... one of two things is going on here.. either there's a miscommunication and they don't actually want you to be the "second shooter" and just want to make sure they have people other than the pro taking pictures from a guest's point of view, OR they don't have any confidence that the pro will be able to capture the pictures they want.

The first scenario makes more sense, and may have used the term "second shooter" in a less literal sense, whereas you're interpreting their request very literally as "be the second pro photographer".

I guess the second scenario could happen, in which case we're left wondering why exactly they're paying a pro photographer to take pictures they think they won't even like.

Either way, as many others have already expressed, the pro photographer will not allow you to take pictures of scenes that he or she has arranged, and will be very annoyed if you try to shadow him or her all day and will probably ask you to leave.

Many, if not most, professional photographers require B&Gs to sign a contract that explicitly prohibits having a "second shooter". Additionally, contracts often contain clauses that prohibit allowing guests to use their cameras during the formal shots, etc. I certainly require my clients to sign such a contract. Of course, on the other hand, guests are certainly expected to take pictures of the ceremony while they are seated, and of the reception while they are mingling with the other guests. That's what I suggest you do. You will be able to take lots of great pictures in this capacity. But taking time with the B&G to do your own portraits with them will be seen by the pro as "stealing" his or her time with them. It would also be very bad for you to be walking around during the ceremony. The pro should be the only one out of their seat.

Hope this helps! You should talk with the B&G to very clearly articulate your expectations and let them know that while you will do your best to take photos, you won't have the same level of access as the pro and therefore they should not expect professional-level pictures.

I guess it would help, if I told you that they are a bit cheap. They do not have a big budget - and I guess they will try to save as much money on the pro shooter. Sorry, that I missed that crucial information

 

[wheelhot]

Kay...time to bring down the intensity level a lil bit
Here is an idea, you walk directly opposite from the pro shooter and in fact dont even point your camera at the direction he/she pointing at if you are using flash.

But yea, do confirm with the B&G if they are treating you as a second official pro photographer or just asking you to take photos just cause your own a dSLR

The reason why I ask you to so that if the main photographer like ask you, "what are you doing?" and such, at least you can say that "Oh, the B&G asked me to become their 2nd main photographer" or something, better then "erm, the B&G asked me to take some photos for them".

 

[Marlat]

Kay...time to bring down the intensity level a lil bit
Here is an idea, you walk directly opposite from the pro shooter and in fact dont even point your camera at the direction he/she pointing at if you are using flash.

But yea, do confirm with the B&G if they are treating you as a second official pro photographer or just asking you to take photos just cause your own a dSLR

The reason why I ask you to so that if the main photographer like ask you, "what are you doing?" and such, at least you can say that "Oh, the B&G asked me to become their 2nd main photographer" or something, better then "erm, the B&G asked me to take some photos for them".

Just to clear things up a bit, I talked to the groom on the phone today, and he said, that I shouldn't care for the pro shooter (or as he told me: "f*** him") - well that's the spirit a pro wants to work under.

I'm currently in the position to be the guy with a good camera that takes some candids. Not more, not less. I'm cool and relaxed now.

 

[sejanus]

Just to clear things up a bit, I talked to the groom on the phone today, and he said, that I shouldn't care for the pro shooter (or as he told me: "f*** him") - well that's the spirit a pro wants to work under.

holy hell! I'm a full time wedding photog and if I heard any of my clients say that I'd give them a refund of their deposit and tell them good luck with their day.

I'm guessing the pro they have is a fairly cheap one - the more you charge people the more they seem to appreciate the effort needed in photography - I'm guessing your friend is at the opposite end to that

 

[Marlat]

holy hell! I'm a full time wedding photog and if I heard any of my clients say that I'd give them a refund of their deposit and tell them good luck with their day.

I'm guessing the pro they have is a fairly cheap one - the more you charge people the more they seem to appreciate the effort needed in photography - I'm guessing your friend is at the opposite end to that

Yea, I wouldn't want to hear something like that as that from a paying customer as well. I hope it's the stress, that brought him to so drastic words.

I wouldn't be surprised if he cancels the pro shooter and just has his friends (like me) do the photos.

 

[wheelhot]

Hmm, okay not to make anyone angry or something, but seriously, how do you classify "pro" I seriously think that word got no meaning right now cause I've seen many people work and they by no means consider themselves pro but the standard they give you, just make you say out loud "pro" whereas there is another crowd where they are labelled as "pro" while in truth their work is just okay and not THAT special, I guess they are just called "pro" cause of the fancy equipments they have .

So seriously, how do you classify pro? Some people in this post mentioned that a "pro" photographer says that he/she should have followed the advice of another people, so would that still means he/she a pro? or he/she is called a pro only cause he/she got lucky and end up getting paid for his/her interest and owning fancy equipment?

I am saying this cause I get a bit shocked when I hear photographers acting angry and all over the job they are getting paid for anyway and a few miss shots wont ruin their collection of work, heck even the bride and groom wont realize he/she missed a few moment, we are humans anyway and humans make mistake regardless of how perfect we try to become.

Sorry if I offend anyone

I totally respect those pros who say, "I am still learning and by no means a pro" or something like that. That show how humble those photographer is.

 

[ftaok]

Hmm, okay not to make anyone angry or something, but seriously, how do you classify "pro" I seriously think that word got no meaning right now cause I've seen many people work and they by no means consider themselves pro but the standard they give you, just make you say out loud "pro" whereas there is another crowd where they are labelled as "pro" while in truth their work is just okay and not THAT special, I guess they are just called "pro" cause of the fancy equipments they have . snip

I guess in the true sense of the word, a pro is anyone who gets paid for their work.

Whether or not they are any good is an entirely different matter. That's why there is such a wide disparity of prices for a wedding photographer. The good/great pros charge accordingly for their services. Inexperienced pros probably charge less.

Anyways, here's a less serious take on the matter from Ken Rockwell.

 

[Marlat]

Hmm, okay not to make anyone angry or something, but seriously, how do you classify "pro" I seriously think that word got no meaning right now cause I've seen many people work and they by no means consider themselves pro but the standard they give you, just make you say out loud "pro" whereas there is another crowd where they are labelled as "pro" while in truth their work is just okay and not THAT special, I guess they are just called "pro" cause of the fancy equipments they have .

So seriously, how do you classify pro? Some people in this post mentioned that a "pro" photographer says that he/she should have followed the advice of another people, so would that still means he/she a pro? or he/she is called a pro only cause he/she got lucky and end up getting paid for his/her interest and owning fancy equipment?

I am saying this cause I get a bit shocked when I hear photographers acting angry and all over the job they are getting paid for anyway and a few miss shots wont ruin their collection of work, heck even the bride and groom wont realize he/she missed a few moment, we are humans anyway and humans make mistake regardless of how perfect we try to become.

Sorry if I offend anyone

I totally respect those pros who say, "I am still learning and by no means a pro" or something like that. That show how humble those photographer is.

I guess they can be annoyed because they are paid for unforgetable moments captured in nice photos. And I don't know how much post-processing they are willing to do, but getting the flash of a flash-gun out of a photo is nearly impossible. If I were paid it would get on my nerve. Ok, mom and pop want nice photos too, but they have to understand that there is someone who was paid for that.

I won't be in the way of the paid shooter (let's call him this, and not pro, ok?) I will be getting more opportunities to take nice photos myself. So I don't mind, if I lose one photo. Besides: I'm there to enjoy myself

 

[snberk103]

I guess the groom doesn't even know what kind of pro photog he wants (or will be hiring). It's a bit of a mess at the moment - the only thing that's definite is the date of the wedding.

I'm a pro, but I don't do weddings... if you screw up you don't get a 2nd chance. I don't need that kind of stress. You don't need that kind of stress.

When I'm asked about wedding photographers, I tell the couple that they should be prepared to spend to big bucks on the wedding photos. You can sometimes get a pro shooter for less than pro shooter price, but you can't count on it.

In 10 or 20 years they won't be sitting front of the fire, leafing through the reception menu or the DJ play-lists..... they will be going through their photo albums. They need to make sure they have the photographs in the first place.

 

[snberk103]

My second comment, is that your friend probably asked you to shoot the wedding based on what he saw of your existing work, and your "look". Don't go and change what you shoot because all of a sudden you are shooting the wedding. You said you did party stuff, etc.... then shoot this wedding just like your other work. Its what your friend likes.

Based on your friend's comment about not worrying about getting in the way of their photographer... a really nice wedding present would be to hire the another photographer for them (maybe get a few people to kick in some of the cost). They obviously don't respect the one they have. Go and look at a dozen or so photographers portfolios. On this short notice you may have problems finding one that is good, but you never know.... perhaps there is a cancellation.

If you arranged the photographer, you could make it clear up front what you would like to do, and arrange to step on each other's toes.

 

[Phrasikleia]

I am saying this cause I get a bit shocked when I hear photographers acting angry and all over the job they are getting paid for anyway and a few miss shots wont ruin their collection of work, heck even the bride and groom wont realize he/she missed a few moment, we are humans anyway and humans make mistake regardless of how perfect we try to become.

In some countries wedding photography is taken less seriously. In the United States, however, it's a huge deal. The best photographers show up with a team of assistants who might get secondary angles, hold reflectors, herd the crowd, etc. The shots then go through a substantial polishing phase in PP and are usually presented in elaborate albums. The best of them get paid many thousands of dollars for their services. This has been going on for decades, and expectations in the US are very high because of it. There are a number of standard shots that most American clients expect, and if any of those are missing, the photographer could be in big trouble (remember that the United States is an exceedingly litigious country). Wedding photographers are therefore under a lot of pressure in the US, hence all the stress and fretting you hear. They're not just worried about getting great shots for their portfolio; they're worried about getting sued or about angry clients trying to blackball them in a community.

In other countries, it's a much more lackadaisical affair. Expectations are not as high, and photographers can afford to miss some shots--no big deal, so long as they come through with some good ones. Perhaps you're more used to that kind of an environment?

 

[Marlat]

My second comment, is that your friend probably asked you to shoot the wedding based on what he saw of your existing work, and your "look". Don't go and change what you shoot because all of a sudden you are shooting the wedding. You said you did party stuff, etc.... then shoot this wedding just like your other work. Its what your friend likes.

Based on your friend's comment about not worrying about getting in the way of their photographer... a really nice wedding present would be to hire the another photographer for them (maybe get a few people to kick in some of the cost). They obviously don't respect the one they have. Go and look at a dozen or so photographers portfolios. On this short notice you may have problems finding one that is good, but you never know.... perhaps there is a cancellation.

If you arranged the photographer, you could make it clear up front what you would like to do, and arrange to step on each other's toes.

I doubt that they have a paid shooter in the first place. Like I said: they are a bit on a limited budget. But I don't want to speak bad about my friend - besides it's an honor for me, that he asked me in the first place.

 

[gerlan]

Sorry Marlat, but i am having technical prob with my computer- failed twice to enter message- will re send tomorrow- Trust me I've been where you'r going, so hope advice will suit.

 

[Marlat]

Sorry Marlat, but i am having technical prob with my computer- failed twice to enter message- will re send tomorrow- Trust me I've been where you'r going, so hope advice will suit.

Awesome, I'm looking forward to it.

 

[gerlan]

1)Why auto?- its important to you and the Groom. If you are comfortable with manual settings Great- if unsure why risk missing shot or making mistakes- I took a new Nikon out of box to my niece's wedding last year, autofocus is good so i caught every shot i wanted, good quality, no mishaps Couple were delighted. I am convinced that on that occasion my shots were better because i was totally relaxed!
2) CS4- now you're 'showing off;' Excellent
7) i was thinking NIKON (85mm f1.8 is one third price of f1.4- anything similar for you?) Even 105mm excellent for portraiture- i prefer prime lenses which is where i believe most of your budget should be spent (on lens that is, whichever lens you choose)
Re Pro will get back to you before anymore tech probs through me out)

 

[snberk103]

I doubt that they have a paid shooter in the first place. Like I said: they are a bit on a limited budget. But I don't want to speak bad about my friend - besides it's an honor for me, that he asked me in the first place.

That is an even better reason to hire them a wedding photographer. As I said earlier, in 20 years its nice to have some wedding photos. And, regardless of your skill as a photographer, you already have a job... as a friend you are there to eat their food, get a little tipsy on champagne, tell slightly embarrassing stories about the groom (never the bride unless you are a parent or maid of honour), and dance. Let a pro capture the formal shots, and you can have some fun with your particular way of shooting.

 

[gerlan]

And yet more!

Re Pro- maybe it does vary from area to area (or country)- I have never had problem when introducing myself to Pro, made it clear that they should not be shy in telling me if i get in their way! (if they did mind they missed their chance to say!). On every occasion of this nature The Pro has controlled their GIG- They have asked the crowd who wants to take photos, explained that after every set up the guest would get their chance to take a snap and duly turned to the guests and invited them to take their shots as and when it was apropriate- I am not aware that guests ever spoiled this common arrangement.- guests don't want to spoil the Big Day either! Its gonna hapen, its silly for a Pro not to deal with it to their advantage- USA aside IT SEEMS TO WORK??

Its not a competition- Pro has arsenal of Full Frame Body/tripod/light metre/lighting and Oh yes a bag full of lenses, the cheapest of which will buy every piece of equipment amongst the congregation, twice over!! Invest in the best lenses you can afford, everything else can either follow or be upgraded later.Oh and forgot to mention Pro SKILL IN ARSENAL!
have missed anything? Trust me- you will produce great shots if you concentrate on making the picture, and you can enjoy the day also ??!!

 

[sejanus]

Hmm, okay not to make anyone angry or something, but seriously, how do you classify "pro" I seriously think that word got no meaning right now cause I've seen many people work and they by no means consider themselves pro but the standard they give you, just make you say out loud "pro" whereas there is another crowd where they are labelled as "pro" while in truth their work is just okay and not THAT special, I guess they are just called "pro" cause of the fancy equipments they have .

So seriously, how do you classify pro? Some people in this post mentioned that a "pro" photographer says that he/she should have followed the advice of another people, so would that still means he/she a pro? or he/she is called a pro only cause he/she got lucky and end up getting paid for his/her interest and owning fancy equipment?

I am saying this cause I get a bit shocked when I hear photographers acting angry and all over the job they are getting paid for anyway and a few miss shots wont ruin their collection of work, heck even the bride and groom wont realize he/she missed a few moment, we are humans anyway and humans make mistake regardless of how perfect we try to become.

Sorry if I offend anyone

I totally respect those pros who say, "I am still learning and by no means a pro" or something like that. That show how humble those photographer is.

I agree there is a lot of people out there passing themselves off as pros who aren't very high standard. Actually at the moment I'm trying to help a couple out who got ripped off by a photographic company who came to their wedding and shot garbage all day long.

This is why I got into wedding photography, because there was so much rubbish out there. I'm lucky enough to have turned it into a full time job and be fairly well sought after.

In general I don't mind other guests taking photos because it will show the couple how much better mine are As long as the guests don't get in my way, they can shoot as much as they like. Very rarely do I get guests who get in my way though, it's only happened 3-4 times in 300 odd weddings.

I'm in Australia - my wedding website is http://www.catoandpade.com.au

 

[wheelhot]

In some countries wedding photography is taken less seriously. In the United States, however, it's a huge deal. The best photographers show up with a team of assistants who might get secondary angles, hold reflectors, herd the crowd, etc. The shots then go through a substantial polishing phase in PP and are usually presented in elaborate albums. The best of them get paid many thousands of dollars for their services. This has been going on for decades, and expectations in the US are very high because of it. There are a number of standard shots that most American clients expect, and if any of those are missing, the photographer could be in big trouble (remember that the United States is an exceedingly litigious country). Wedding photographers are therefore under a lot of pressure in the US, hence all the stress and fretting you hear. They're not just worried about getting great shots for their portfolio; they're worried about getting sued or about angry clients trying to blackball them in a community.

In other countries, it's a much more lackadaisical affair. Expectations are not as high, and photographers can afford to miss some shots--no big deal, so long as they come through with some good ones. Perhaps you're more used to that kind of an environment?

Thanks for spending your time writing this, really enlightening. And yea, guess its very competitive there but still, to me doesn't justify the right getting pissed off cause they will have more then 1 shot of a single place and that let say they didn't have a great shot there, there are still many other great shots taken from that day that will compensate this problem. Of course he could also be polite and request to the guest to let him do his work first and later let the guest take photos.

Well I heard that some weddings, there are 2 photogs, 1 is for official and the other as candid. Anyone did/seen this before?