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Your opinion is entirely valid. But change is already happening. As I mentioned previously, when cable TV hit, people probably said the same thing about having to pay for what is already free. We are moving ever closer to the same kind of tipping point for music.

No, when Cable TV first hit it was terrific because it was a breakthrough:

Crystal clear reception instead of fuzz.
100 channels instead of 9.
Movies in your home instead of in a theater.
Every local sporting event in your home instead of sporadic.

Cable TV in 1980 felt like the launch of the iPhone in 2006. Mind-blowing. Apple Music is not a breakthrough. It's a re-purposing of what is already served at a lower cost and in a less cumbersome manner. And I would care less about it, frankly, if it were any company other than Apple offering it. There are plenty of startups trying to fleece the public, I don't care. But it's Apple. A company I greatly admire. They shouldn't put their name on this. It's a money-grab by a company that heretofore has avoided such low-life moves.

BJ
 
In 30 years someone is going to say this exact same thing about music streaming.

No, when Cable TV first hit it was terrific because it was a breakthrough:

Crystal clear reception instead of fuzz.
100 channels instead of 9.
Movies in your home instead of in a theater.
Every local sporting event in your home instead of sporadic.

Cable TV in 1980 felt like the launch of the iPhone in 2006. Mind-blowing. Apple Music is not a breakthrough. It's a re-purposing of what is already served at a lower cost and in a less cumbersome manner. And I would care less about it, frankly, if it were any company other than Apple offering it. There are plenty of startups trying to fleece the public, I don't care. But it's Apple. A company I greatly admire. They shouldn't put their name on this. It's a money-grab by a company that heretofore has avoided such low-life moves.

BJ
 
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Using bold text doesn't change the fact that we have very different opinions of what the future looks like. We will have to agree to disagree that Music streaming subscriptions will be the norm in the not too distant future.

Paco, you are again incorrectly comparing things that are not that similar
 
Using bold text doesn't change the fact that we have very different opinions of what the future looks like. We will have to agree to disagree that Music streaming subscriptions will be the norm in the not too distant future.

It had nothing to do with the future, it has to do with you continually comparing products and services that are in no way similar in their consumption and ownership habits.

You seem to just not get it on a lot of these comparisons you keep trying to make.
 
That is entirely your opinion based on how you view music. Since I view it differently, so is my opinion different from yours.

It had nothing to do with the future, it has to do with you continually comparing products and services that are in no way similar in their consumption and ownership habits.

You seem to just not get it on a lot of these comparisons you keep trying to make.
 
Well the original poster has a 20k song library. If he paid for it all that is over $20,000. At $10 a month it would take close to 200 years to spend the same amount on apple music. Plus you get 29,980,000 more songs.

So yeah if you think getting way more content for way less money is a rip off money grab...

First off, stop with the "30 million songs" logic. McDonald's makes 30 million burgers a day. It doesn't matter because you can only eat 1. If you think of today's Hot 100 on Billboard, there are probably only 10 songs you want to hear and only 1 you'd want to own and replay in the future. And since key artists and key albums aren't available, it's not a complete library. It's bogus. It's a giant count of songs that no one cares about. It's like paying for a fabulous vacation in Pittsburgh.

Next, stop with the math logic of how many songs I own vs. what they cost. Half my songs I got from friends, didn't cost me anything. A half of what's left I ripped from CD's. The rest I bought off of iTunes. And of those 20,000 songs there are only 1,000 that I listen to in a typical year, and they're on playlists that I've curated to my personal needs.

The flaw in Apple Music, besides the cost and the data overages and the missing key artists and the threat of an artist pulling out and the threat of a new LP launching exclusively on a competing service is that there simply isn't enough good new music to justify $120 a year for the rest of your life. The day I discovered Oasis in 1997 I must have spent $300 buying their entire catalog, import versions, no less. But I've gone entire years without buying any songs on iTunes, the absolute dearth of good new music is staggering in genres like Rock and Alternative and anything other than Teen Girl Dance Pop which is driving 90% of the revenues today.

The number of titles doesn't matter. What matters are the number of good titles net of what you already own or already decided you didn't like. It's a very small number.

BJ
 
That is entirely your opinion based on how you view music. Since I view it differently, so is my opinion different from yours.

There's no way to "view it differently" Paco -

You are simply incorrectly trying to compare things that have different facts about how they are consumed and purchased.

Just because 2 things are a form of media, does not in any way mean you can draw conclusions about one from the other. It doesn't work that way.

You can have opinions - But you don't get to create your own facts, sorry.
 
First off, stop with the "30 million songs" logic. McDonald's makes 30 million burgers a day. It doesn't matter because you can only eat 1. If you think of today's Hot 100 on Billboard, there are probably only 10 songs you want to hear and only 1 you'd want to own and replay in the future. And since key artists and key albums aren't available, it's not a complete library. It's bogus. It's a giant count of songs that no one cares about. It's like paying for a fabulous vacation in Pittsburgh.

Next, stop with the math logic of how many songs I own vs. what they cost. Half my songs I got from friends, didn't cost me anything. A half of what's left I ripped from CD's. The rest I bought off of iTunes. And of those 20,000 songs there are only 1,000 that I listen to in a typical year, and they're on playlists that I've curated to my personal needs.

The flaw in Apple Music, besides the cost and the data overages and the missing key artists and the threat of an artist pulling out and the threat of a new LP launching exclusively on a competing service is that there simply isn't enough good new music to justify $120 a year for the rest of your life. The day I discovered Oasis in 1997 I must have spent $300 buying their entire catalog, import versions, no less. But I've gone entire years without buying any songs on iTunes, the absolute dearth of good new music is staggering in genres like Rock and Alternative and anything other than Teen Girl Dance Pop which is driving 90% of the revenues today.

The number of titles doesn't matter. What matters are the number of good titles net of what you already own or already decided you didn't like. It's a very small number.

BJ

Awesome post BJ
 
Ok, this subtopic of this thread has clearly run its course. Let's regroup in 10 years and see how things went

No. But in about 30 seconds you're going to understand why what you said is so ridiculous.

BJ
 
Ok, this subtopic of this thread has clearly run its course. Let's regroup in 10 years and see how things went

Don't run away. There is so much we can teach you.

Day 1 of Cable TV was a jaw dropping experience. It looked like your dad got a new TV, the picture was so clear. You went from 9 channels to 100. You could watch the new Star Wars without interruption a year after its release instead of waiting a decade and suffering through edits and commercials. There was a music video station. There was a sports station. You didn't know what do with yourself. You wanted to sit there and watch it all day and all night. And, by the way, this was before the VCR was in mass production. It was a huge deal. Earth-shattering.

Apple Music is nice in some ways, it's not even close to a huge deal. Cable TV was like the iPhone in it's day. One of those 'oh my God' moments.

BJ
 
We all know that a typical album has 12 songs and 9 of them suck. It was bad enough in the 80s when you had to spend $15 to get just those 3 good ones. iTunes made it better when you could just spend $3 to get those good songs and forget the rest.

The issue is that once my kids are on Apple Music and start building their own Libraries of pay-to-rent music, we/they will be stuck with that model in perpetuity.

There isn't enough benefit (New Music) to offset the detriment (Expense) for the long-haul considering my personal Library already has 25,000+ songs with the very best of artists/albums/songs from 1955 to 2015. I know my kids, they're not going to be buying an average of 12 albums a year to make this endeavor worthwhile.

Nice try by Apple to turn into Comcast though. I give them that.

BJ

I see the problem here: You don't like a lot of music. That's fine, but a lot of people like entire albums, not just three songs off of an album. Maybe you need to listen to higher quality artists?

You're free to not like Apple Music, or more than 20,000 songs in your lifetime, but don't assume that the value of the AM library is as low to others as it is to you.

You only want 30 new songs per year? Then AM/Spotify/Tidal/Google Play etc. is not for you. No harm, no foul. But it's not highway robbery to everyone.
 
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I see the problem here: You don't like a lot of music. That's fine, but a lot of people like entire albums, not just three songs off of an album. Maybe you need to listen to higher quality artists?

You're free to not like Apple Music, or more than 20,000 songs in your lifetime, but don't assume that the value of the AM library is as low to others as it is to you.

You only want 30 new songs per year? Then AM/Spotify/Tidal/Google Play etc. is not for you. No harm, no foul. But it's not highway robbery to everyone.

If you were going to spend $120 a year on iTunes downloads for the entirety of your life it's well worth it.

Except if you never pull down more than 120 songs a year. Except if 5 of your favorite bands drop out of the streaming business. Except if 5 must-have LP's each year are released a month earlier on a competing streaming service. Except if the record companies get together and force Apple Music to drop offline-listening. Except if the record companies get together and decide that they aren't supporting the streaming model at all anymore and are going back to good ol' downloading.

In those cases, you'd be screwed. Imagine it's 2025 and you've built a nice collection of offline music and playlists and Apple Music goes POOF. You're out $1,200 and every song you loved is deleted from your computer. What a nice day that will be. "Oh, but you got 10 years of listening enjoyment!" they'll say. And then you'll whip out your credit card and pay another $3,000 to download them just to get your songs and your playlists and your playcounts back.

Physically owning the media is the only way to ensure you're not gamed by the system. This reminds me of NFL owners and their PSL's, a way to fleece fans every 30 years for 'licenses' and ensure that their offspring get the big payday and the new stadium.

BJ
 
I'm not sure why you've determined that offline downloading is the only use for Apple Music. I've never offline downloaded anything from any streaming service, and yet I've used them all plenty.
 
I'm not sure why you've determined that offline downloading is the only use for Apple Music. I've never offline downloaded anything from any streaming service, and yet I've used them all plenty.

No, not at all, it's not the only use for Apple Music.

My contention is simple: If you pay $120 a year to Apple, you should be able to download and keep the songs. If not 500, okay, 100. They shouldn't be removed from your drive if you cease the service or if a record company pulls the title. They shouldn't hook you for 10 years and leave you with nothing but empty playlists when you depart. Otherwise, you're essentially paying $120 for streaming radio which is free.

BJ
 
Please find me a free streaming radio service that allows me to play whatever songs I like on demand, as opposed to playing songs at random. The most you can tell a service like Pandora or iTunes Radio is to play songs from an artist and similar artists. I can't go to those services and have it play the exact song I want when I want.
 
If you were going to spend $120 a year on iTunes downloads for the entirety of your life it's well worth it.

Except if you never pull down more than 120 songs a year. Except if 5 of your favorite bands drop out of the streaming business. Except if 5 must-have LP's each year are released a month earlier on a competing streaming service. Except if the record companies get together and force Apple Music to drop offline-listening. Except if the record companies get together and decide that they aren't supporting the streaming model at all anymore and are going back to good ol' downloading.

In those cases, you'd be screwed. Imagine it's 2025 and you've built a nice collection of offline music and playlists and Apple Music goes POOF. You're out $1,200 and every song you loved is deleted from your computer. What a nice day that will be. "Oh, but you got 10 years of listening enjoyment!" they'll say. And then you'll whip out your credit card and pay another $3,000 to download them just to get your songs and your playlists and your playcounts back.

Physically owning the media is the only way to ensure you're not gamed by the system. This reminds me of NFL owners and their PSL's, a way to fleece fans every 30 years for 'licenses' and ensure that their offspring get the big payday and the new stadium.

BJ

What if your house was flooded or burnt down, you've lost that entire physical collection. See, there's outlandish doomsday scenarios for everything....
 
Don't run away. There is so much we can teach you.

Day 1 of Cable TV was a jaw dropping experience. It looked like your dad got a new TV, the picture was so clear. You went from 9 channels to 100. You could watch the new Star Wars without interruption a year after its release instead of waiting a decade and suffering through edits and commercials. There was a music video station. There was a sports station. You didn't know what do with yourself. You wanted to sit there and watch it all day and all night. And, by the way, this was before the VCR was in mass production. It was a huge deal. Earth-shattering.

Apple Music is nice in some ways, it's not even close to a huge deal. Cable TV was like the iPhone in it's day. One of those 'oh my God' moments.

BJ

For music enthusiasts, day 1 of services like Spotify was exactly the same thing. That I could listen to a substantial portion of the world's music library suddenly for free or for a nominal monthly fee was just a game changer. What you describe about cable TV
You didn't know what do with yourself. You wanted to sit there and watch it all day and all night... It was a huge deal. Earth-shattering.
is exactly how I felt about early music streaming (and Napster for that matter).


It's clear you don't care that much about music discovery. Many of us do. And for us, $120/year is peanuts for what services like this afford us.

If you were going to spend $120 a year on iTunes downloads for the entirety of your life it's well worth it.

Except if you never pull down more than 120 songs a year. Except if 5 of your favorite bands drop out of the streaming business. Except if 5 must-have LP's each year are released a month earlier on a competing streaming service. Except if the record companies get together and force Apple Music to drop offline-listening. Except if the record companies get together and decide that they aren't supporting the streaming model at all anymore and are going back to good ol' downloading.

In those cases, you'd be screwed. Imagine it's 2025 and you've built a nice collection of offline music and playlists and Apple Music goes POOF. You're out $1,200 and every song you loved is deleted from your computer. What a nice day that will be. "Oh, but you got 10 years of listening enjoyment!" they'll say. And then you'll whip out your credit card and pay another $3,000 to download them just to get your songs and your playlists and your playcounts back.

Physically owning the media is the only way to ensure you're not gamed by the system. This reminds me of NFL owners and their PSL's, a way to fleece fans every 30 years for 'licenses' and ensure that their offspring get the big payday and the new stadium.

BJ

This is where you are missing the point. I don't care about getting the equivalent of $120/year in downloads out of a service like Apple Music. That's not why I subscribe. I subscribe not as a complete replacement for owning physical media or digital downloads, but as a supplement to it because it affords me the opportunity to discover music that I would never find otherwise. I can pull up something I hear in a film, read about in a magazine or online, something recommended to me by a friend, or share an entire playlist with them that they can then listen to immediately.

It's 2025 and Apple Music goes poof? I'm not out ANYTHING, because I spent 10 years getting to listen to and discover as much music as my heart desires for a pittance. You see no value in that. I see huge value in it. And your point is completely diminished because the physical media you place so much value in has never provided the permanence you see. For most people, the last 40 years have seen them buying many of the same albums repeatedly - from LP's, which damaged easily and were often replaced due to damage or wear, to 8-track, to cassette tapes (which again, wore out) to CD, to digital downloads and high-res. Streaming actually has the potential to upend that never-ending replacement treadmill that the music industry had people roped into.

Further, I wouldn't even need to shell out to buy that music as you claim. Just as you admitted in your own collection, MOST of what we buy we don't end up listening to that much. How much have you spent on music purchases vs. the portion you actually listen to? When you think of it in that light, purchasing music is a terrible value. On the other hand, with a streaming service, who cares if it goes under? What portion of the music I've downloaded or added to a playlist that I actually care about could be purchased for a tiny portion of what it would cost me to have purchased all that music outright, only to decide that I didn't actually like it enough to have paid for it. In that respect, a streaming subscription is a fantastic value as it's a hedge against buying music I don't like.

The reality is that Apple didn't build Apple Music because it was wholly unique. Obviously it isn't. They built Apple Music because they want to remain relevant in the music business, and in just a few years, let alone a decade from now, streaming will be the predominant method of consuming music by orders of magnitude, and Apple couldn't afford to be left out.
 
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It's 2025 and Apple Music goes poof? I'm not out ANYTHING, because I spent 10 years getting to listen to and discover as much music as my heart desires for a pittance.

Unlikely to go poof. More likely subscription costs will creep up as users become locked into the system.

Streaming actually has the potential to upend that never-ending replacement treadmill that the music industry had people roped into.
It's really just trading one treadmill for another isn't it?

Although I must say that the very first CD I bought in the early 80's still sounds great today. 30 years on and I've not had to replace one CD. Some old cassettes and vinyl, yes.

The music industry must regret releasing their content on CDs: Far too durable. Streaming, OTOH, has a lifetime of 1 month
 
First off, stop with the "30 million songs" logic. McDonald's makes 30 million burgers a day. It doesn't matter because you can only eat 1. If you think of today's Hot 100 on Billboard, there are probably only 10 songs you want to hear and only 1 you'd want to own and replay in the future. And since key artists and key albums aren't available, it's not a complete library. It's bogus. It's a giant count of songs that no one cares about. It's like paying for a fabulous vacation in Pittsburgh.

Next, stop with the math logic of how many songs I own vs. what they cost. Half my songs I got from friends, didn't cost me anything. A half of what's left I ripped from CD's. The rest I bought off of iTunes. And of those 20,000 songs there are only 1,000 that I listen to in a typical year, and they're on playlists that I've curated to my personal needs.

The flaw in Apple Music, besides the cost and the data overages and the missing key artists and the threat of an artist pulling out and the threat of a new LP launching exclusively on a competing service is that there simply isn't enough good new music to justify $120 a year for the rest of your life. The day I discovered Oasis in 1997 I must have spent $300 buying their entire catalog, import versions, no less. But I've gone entire years without buying any songs on iTunes, the absolute dearth of good new music is staggering in genres like Rock and Alternative and anything other than Teen Girl Dance Pop which is driving 90% of the revenues today.

The number of titles doesn't matter. What matters are the number of good titles net of what you already own or already decided you didn't like. It's a very small number.

BJ

That's not a flaw in Apple Music.

That's just Apple Music not being for you.

For others, who do still like to hear new music, it seems pretty great.

And yes, I know its not the first streaming services, but all streaming services working on that principal are pretty great.

I have been going through my library and filling in loads of blanks, and adding a load of recent albums that I hadn't bought, and love the way they seamlessly sit in with my existing library.

When I was a teenager I had a walkman, and could maybe take 10 tapes with me when I went on a journey. If I just went out I would probably just choose a couple.

Here we are in 2015 and we can have a device smaller than a walkman and can listen to pretty much anything at will.

We can add stuff to our library for easy access.

If we like a song, we can tap a button and it will play other similar stuff, that we might not have heard before and might like.

We can create infinite playlists and mix up that music any which way.

And still some people aren't happy.

Which is fine - it just means you don't see yourself wanting to listen to a dozen new albums a year.

It just doesn't mean Apple Music is flawed.
 
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For music enthusiasts, day 1 of services like Spotify was exactly the same thing. That I could listen to a substantial portion of the world's music library suddenly for free or for a nominal monthly fee was just a game changer. What you describe about cable TV is exactly how I felt about early music streaming (and Napster for that matter).


It's clear you don't care that much about music discovery. Many of us do. And for us, $120/year is peanuts for what services like this afford us.

This is where you are missing the point. I don't care about getting the equivalent of $120/year in downloads out of a service like Apple Music. That's not why I subscribe. I subscribe not as a complete replacement for owning physical media or digital downloads, but as a supplement to it because it affords me the opportunity to discover music that I would never find otherwise. I can pull up something I hear in a film, read about in a magazine or online, something recommended to me by a friend, or share an entire playlist with them that they can then listen to immediately.

It's 2025 and Apple Music goes poof? I'm not out ANYTHING, because I spent 10 years getting to listen to and discover as much music as my heart desires for a pittance. You see no value in that. I see huge value in it. And your point is completely diminished because the physical media you place so much value in has never provided the permanence you see. For most people, the last 40 years have seen them buying many of the same albums repeatedly - from LP's, which damaged easily and were often replaced due to damage or wear, to 8-track, to cassette tapes (which again, wore out) to CD, to digital downloads and high-res. Streaming actually has the potential to upend that never-ending replacement treadmill that the music industry had people roped into.

Further, I wouldn't even need to shell out to buy that music as you claim. Just as you admitted in your own collection, MOST of what we buy we don't end up listening to that much. How much have you spent on music purchases vs. the portion you actually listen to? When you think of it in that light, purchasing music is a terrible value. On the other hand, with a streaming service, who cares if it goes under? What portion of the music I've downloaded or added to a playlist that I actually care about could be purchased for a tiny portion of what it would cost me to have purchased all that music outright, only to decide that I didn't actually like it enough to have paid for it. In that respect, a streaming subscription is a fantastic value as it's a hedge against buying music I don't like.

The reality is that Apple didn't build Apple Music because it was wholly unique. Obviously it isn't. They built Apple Music because they want to remain relevant in the music business, and in just a few years, let alone a decade from now, streaming will be the predominant method of consuming music by orders of magnitude, and Apple couldn't afford to be left out.

These are basically my exact thoughts.

Its like when you go and see a movie. After you leave the theatre, you're not down $20 because you don't own the movie. For your $20 you got to see, and hopefully enjoy, the movie.

And with this, it doesn't really matter if in 10 years I don't own every album I had ever listened to in the last 10 years. Most I would likely never have bought anyway, but will have had 10 years of hearing a load of new stuff - far more than I would have if I was limited to music I would have bought.

I'm probably lucky, in that Apple Music is something of a perfect storm for me. I loved Zane's show in the UK, but was an irregular listener. When he left the BBC it was definitely a case of 'you don't miss something til its gone'. So have been listening fairly regularly to Annie Mac's show, and have been very much liking Beats 1 since it started, and generally more enthusiastic for new music as I have been in a long time.
 
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