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Rocksaurus

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2003
652
0
California
matticus008 said:
You're assuming that they don't mind repurchasing all their Windows software to begin with. Assuming that they will buy software to switch TO Mac but won't switch BACK to Windows isn't a sound assumption (especially because they can go back to using their Windows software and either way, upgrading every few years is going to cost money). The "compatibility effects" you're talking about are a barrier to first time switchers, and not similarly a barrier to switching back to Windows.


You can boot Windows/Virtualize it, no need to rebuy! Get used to the Mac, fall in love with it, cave and rebuy software. It won't happen every time, but if they never buy a Mac in the first place because of price, none of this would be possible in the first place.



matticus008 said:
That's not how Microsoft captured market share. It's part of how they maintain it, nothing more. So yeah, pretty much totally wrong, not that there's anything wrong with being wrong.

Oh, so businesses and personal users who needed compatibility and saw that all their partners, competitors, co-workers, friends and family etc. were using Windows, which was incompatible with Mac decided to buy Windows for... It's look and feel? I'm glad you covered your bases - there IS nothing wrong with being wrong!





matticus008 said:
As soon as quality is compromised for quantity, that's when a big chunk of customers jump ship. There's an expectation of longtime Mac users of being an elite niche group; even for those who don't care about the Apple image, the launch of low-price Macs means instant, momentous devaluing of all other Apple computers and blows the typical Mac user upgrade plan out of the water.


The boxes we're talking about are for web browsing and e-mail only. Apple will still offer the same high quality, high priced options they do now! It would be silly to leave that market! :) Not to mention, why would everyone jump ship if their computers were devalued (which they wouldn't be if they owned the high-end models)? Why would you jump ship when your resale value is low? That doesn't seem very logical. But, if you're in the market of selling low, I'll buy your Mac off of you.




matticus008 said:
How is greater market share good for users in general? Smaller share and a narrower focus is better than Apple trying to over-reach and start running into more intense QC and compatibility problems. Apple is a much smaller company than Microsoft, covering a much more diverse set of responsibilities. I'm also not sure how you're going to convince mid-level developers to switch. None of the major companies will likely budge if they're not already involved in OS X. The middle ones that have some sway over the platform don't have the resources to do things twice--not unless OS X can come close to 50% market share (it can't in any near future possible timeline). The small ones are already there and doing great work in their platform of choice.


Why do Windows users have a plethora of applications and games? Because of Windows' outstanding functionality? I argue that choice in software is a good thing, and without economic incentive (aka marketshare) where's the incentive to develop for Mac? And what's with QC and compatibility problems? I'm not asking that Apple release OS X for use on Dells, I'm asking that Apple roll out a lower end machine. Does the Mini cause QC problems? Nope, I worked at an Apple store, it was our least repaired machine, in fact. Don't believe me? I'll give you my old store's number, call up a genius there.


matticus008 said:
There is a benefit to reaching more users and there is also a positive gain in developers, but the loss of old customers means that these gains are non-sustainable and are at best a horizontal shuffling and at worst a net LOSS of customers.

So, if Apple makes a Mac for ~200 are you going to jump ship and start using a Dell? Who here would? :confused:
 

Anonymous Freak

macrumors 603
Dec 12, 2002
5,604
1,388
Cascadia
generik said:
Except the reality is Apple's computers' higher quality are perceived and not real.

So is Porsche's, so is Jaguar's, so is Ferrari's. Like Apple, you pay more for essentially the same thing, only with more ammenities, and a fancier 'name'. I can buy a souped up Ford Mustang that can compete well with any Porsche, I can buy a botique Ford GTO that competes well with a Ferrari. But it's a Ford. Just like Dell. I can buy a souped up Dell that competes well with a high-end Apple. But it's a Dell. Doesn't have the same panache as Apple; just as owning a Ford doesn't have the same panache as owning a Ferrari.
 

slooksterPSV

macrumors 68040
Apr 17, 2004
3,545
309
Nowheresville
I wish they would do that. Just have 2 USB Ports in the front, the video out in the back, power to the side, and have 1GB RAM in it initially, only one problem. Heat. Heat is the biggest issue for anything. But suggest it to a company, a CD Jewel case size PC
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
Rocksaurus said:
You can boot Windows/Virtualize it, no need to rebuy! Get used to the Mac, fall in love with it, cave and rebuy software.
If your switchers aren't using OS X, what's the point? If they choose to switch back to Windows after buying their first Mac, then there goes your OS X development and Apple transforms into just another Windows OEM.


Oh, so businesses and personal users who needed compatibility and saw that all their partners, competitors, co-workers, friends and family etc. were using Windows, which was incompatible with Mac decided to buy Windows for... It's look and feel? I'm glad you covered your bases - there IS nothing wrong with being wrong!
You're using the most lopsided arguments in the world! You said that OS X would gain market share the same way Windows did--and here you're saying that that method is that people will need OS X because everyone else will be running it? That's not how OS X is going to increase its market share. Furthermore, Windows market share only grew in the method you described once it had PASSED the 50% mark, which OS X is nowhere near. Believe it or not, people did CHOOSE Windows over MacOS when they bought their first computers (and had no compatibility worries as first-time buyers).


The boxes we're talking about are for web browsing and e-mail only. Apple will still offer the same high quality, high priced options they do now! It would be silly to leave that market! :) Not to mention, why would everyone jump ship if their computers were devalued (which they wouldn't be if they owned the high-end models)?
Wow. The low-priced boxes would have the same specs and performance as year-old Macs. No one's "high priced option" would be worth anything a year out, because a NEW "low end" box with similar specs would be available for $300, making their $1200 computer worthless and their $2000 computer worth at best a few hundred bucks. Apples would come to have the same value as other PCs a year out.

Why would you jump ship when your resale value is low? That doesn't seem very logical.
Because lots of people only stick with higher-priced Mac hardware because they know they can sell their older Macs to reduce the financial impact of buying a new Mac. If they can't do that, they might as well (and will) just buy PCs.

Why do Windows users have a plethora of applications and games? Because of Windows' outstanding functionality? I argue that choice in software is a good thing, and without economic incentive (aka marketshare) where's the incentive to develop for Mac?
Believe it or not, yes, people develop for Windows because of its practicality (there is a lot of documentation, lots of prepared API libraries, lots of flexibility in design standards) and because it's what they themselves use (think of how much more free software is available for Windows--they're not doing it for the money, they're doing it for other reasons. Market share is NOT economic incentive at small levels. Even if Apple triples its market share in the next five years, it won't be providing the necessary incentives and cost recovery paths for middle-size software firms. These companies can't afford to do things twice unless the market share is relatively close to 50/50. 80/20 isn't going to do it--and that's far, far, far off for Apple.

And what's with QC and compatibility problems?
The more hardware they have to support and develop for, the greater the workload on their programmers. Part of the reason that Apple only makes a few systems is because they can focus on software support for that narrow range. Obviously, increasing the number of hardware systems makes for greater complexity and stretches Apple more thinly (over-reaching...).

Plenty of people here would jump ship. The ones who need high resale values to continue their upgrade plans would likely go, the ones who were upset about Apple's catering to the low end would go, and if Apple doubled the number of $300 Mac switchers (because of the aesthetic look of the machine), Apple would find that many, if not most, of them were buying the low-end Macs to run Windows, which does absolutely nothing for OS X market share.

The loss of part of the OS X upper market and the growth in the Windows-using low-end Mac market wouldn't produce a hugely beneficial net effect for Apple--in fact, it would force them to choose between catering to the larger low-end customer base or sticking to its guns and preferring their high end core customers. If it alienates the cheap customers, that sales increase is just temporary and Apple eventually settles right back where it is now, and if it alienates the high end, that's a slippery slope to Apple becoming a miniature version of Dell and ruining its image.
 

balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,365
979
New England
slooksterPSV said:
But suggest it to a company, a CD Jewel case size PC
You have seen the Mac mini, right? ;)

Okay so it's about 5 jewel cases, but that's the point. Unless they eliminate the optical drive and the HDD there really isn't any way to reduce the height of such a box. Without the drives, what good would it be?

B
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
May 7, 2004
15,678
5,511
Sod off
Is it just me or do we have one of these Apple v.s. Dell cheap computer discussions at least once a week? :rolleyes:

Apple knows they can't compete with Dell at the low-end, they'd lose badly. Dell will always be the king of extremely cheap OEM PCs. If Apple sold a $300 Mac with monitor it would be crap just like the Dell. Probably better looking though.

If you want a $300 OSX machine just for websurfing/word processing get one of the faster G3 iMacs or one of the B&W towers, or even one of the Yikes! or Sawtooth G4s. Other than that you'll have to go Dell.
 

balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,365
979
New England
Lord Blackadder said:
Dell will always be the king of extremely cheap OEM PCs.
Such sweeping generalizations are always dangerous.

Gateway once held Dell's position in the world as the largest provider of cheap OEM boxes, and others Packard Bell, eMachines, etc... have done pretty well in serving the low end of the market. What makes Dell so special that they can't screw it up?

It would be like saying that Apple will never enter the consumer electronics market, 'cause they can't compete. Oh, wait is that an iPod. ;)

B
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
May 7, 2004
15,678
5,511
Sod off
balamw said:
Such sweeping generalizations are always dangerous.

Very true - but let us not get overly pedantic here... I should have said that

Dell and other OEMs with a similar business model will always be the king of extremely cheap OEM PCs.

Dell, Gateway, Acer, eMachines, HP (and now Alienware at the low end :eek: )...same ultra-cheap PC, different name. Apple has never attempted to compete in that market.
 

balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,365
979
New England
Lord Blackadder said:
Apple has never attempted to compete in that market.
I'm really not trying to be pedantic.

I do really believe that the "PC" industry is ripe for a real paradigm shift, and we may not easily recognize what comes out the other end until it is here. The growth in the market for general purpose computers is slowing down, a fact which will affect those selling to the low end more than others.

Today's PCs have so much horse-power and are underutilized for the "standard" uses that people put them to. Word processing, simple spreadsheets, MP3s & photos, web surfing... And many of the "non-computer" devices that are in our life have more processing power (at least for specific tasks) than our PCs did only a few years ago.

A day may come where your primary "computing" device might be something more akin to an iPod/iPhone/iPDA than an iMac, and I think Apple has a good shot of competing in that market even on cost as they have done with the iPod.

Sure there will always be a market for general purpose PCs that ressemble today's OS X/Windows boxes, but will this continue to be the largest market for consumer computing devices for ever? Probably not.

B
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
May 7, 2004
15,678
5,511
Sod off
Well, at the moment the technology for a truly mobile do-everything device is not ripe; and I might argue that it may never be.

For one thing there are some ergonomic concerns that PDA-sized devices cannot answer. For instance, I prefer typing on a full-size keyboard and viewing things on a big flat panel. Laptops are OK, but a bit of a compromise. PDAs are too small. They'll never be able to make a 24" widescreen fit in your pocket, even if they probably will be able to make a 3" screen with 1920x1200 res (who cares? nobody's eyes are that good).

I do agree with you that if the public shifts away from the standard desktop PC in droves, Apple will be well placed to beat everyone else to market and come up with a superior product at the same time.

But I think that Apple's success for the next few years will be determined by how many Macs they can push out the door, not a big shift in computer form factor. The iPod bubble WILL burst at some point and if Apple expands its computer business enough it won't really matter. Some day the iPod will have 2% marketshare just like the Mac did until recently, but unlike the iPod the Mac (and OS X) is critical to Apple's long-term survival and its growth is more important.
 

balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,365
979
New England
Lord Blackadder said:
But I think that Apple's success for the next few years will be determined by how many Macs they can push out the door, not a big shift in computer form factor.
Agreed 100%, it's > 3 years out that I start to wonder.

Note that I also share many of your ergonomic concerns with mobiles, but think they can be overcome with appropriate "glue" hardware.

Imagine if you will an iPod sized device which can be docked with a mid-sized screen for a Tablet, add a keyboard for a laptop, and dock it to a larger screen & keyboard at home.

B
 

slooksterPSV

macrumors 68040
Apr 17, 2004
3,545
309
Nowheresville
balamw said:
You have seen the Mac mini, right? ;)

Okay so it's about 5 jewel cases, but that's the point. Unless they eliminate the optical drive and the HDD there really isn't any way to reduce the height of such a box. Without the drives, what good would it be?

B
Use flash drives, but those are too small, use the drives in the iPods or iPod Nan... wait iPod, Shuffle, Nano, and... mini's are gone, that's right, so yeah use the iPod HDD structure, throw some ports on it call it a computer. Heat, although, is the # issue here, no matter what.
 
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