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0388631

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Sep 10, 2009
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I have read quite a few biographies on David Lloyd George.

Actually, he was a very divisive character, inspiring love, devotion and loathing in almost equal measure.

An excellent look at the Liberal Government (basically British constitutional history 1906-1914) is George Dangerfield's superb book "The Strange Death of Liberal England".

The book was published in the mid 1930s, and the latter chapters (especially the one on the suffragettes) do show its age (essentially, he supported the suffragettes, but thought it rather unladylike to hurl rocks through windows, though his sketching of working class grievances is less judgmental) do show the book's age.

But the first chapter - almost a hundred pages long - is simply superb, and beautifully written, too. In essence, it argues - quite brilliantly - that the Liberals sawed off the branch that they were sitting on.

And the pen portrait sketched of DLG is wonderful - you see him at his irreverent, radical, savagely witty, brave and brilliant best, in this book.

The Labour politician Roy Hattersley has written a balanced, (but fairly biting) recent biography of Lloyd George; to my mind, it is the best of the recent works, and it has the further advantage that it is a single volume - and very readable - biography.

Moreover, it also has the advantage of being able to discuss openly what can best be described as Lloyd George's rather "complicated" private life, (earlier works were very coy on the subject, and there was something both brilliant and sleazy about DLG) and has been able to take advantage of recent scholarship, as well.

However, it is clear, reading it - and Hattersley does allude to this - that he had started his research for the work as an admirer of DLG, but came to dislike the man. Intensely.

Actually, I must admit that I am rather partial to well written biographies by politicians - the sort of bright politicians who were equally at home in academia and in public office.

Apart from Roy Hattersley, another, cut from a similar cloth, who was an equally fine historian was Roy Jenkins (his biography of Winston Churchill is excellent).

These individuals, precisely because they had held high office themselves, also knew - and - this is key - also understood - how Government actually worked (as opposed to how it is supposed to work, or should work in an ideal world, which are very different criteria). This makes their insights all the more interesting.

For those seeking even greater depth, John Grigg wrote an outstanding biography of DLG, but it comes in four volumes.

Possibly the most scathing account of all comes from David Lloyd George's own son, his eldest son, Richard Lloyd George. I remember how stunned I was when I read it - and this is not a recent publication, either.


Thank you very much, Sceptical. I'd forgotten to check up on this thread until yesterday. I've gone ahead and placed an order for "The Strange Death of Liberal England" in paperback form. I'll be ordering the other ones in either paperback or hardback (preferably the latter) binding soon. I've always preferred having non-fiction in physical form, preferably a hardback. I have Jenkins' biography on Churchill, which I believe I picked up after reading glowing posts you made on it earlier this year. It used to be easy to walk into a nice independent bookshop and purchase a hardback book on a historic figure. These days, those stores hardly exist and they get by by selling biographies on modern celebrities and other personalities such as sport stars, and of course, the self help books that can go to the moon and back.

Again, thank you!
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
Thank you very much, Sceptical. I'd forgotten to check up on this thread until yesterday. I've gone ahead and placed an order for "The Strange Death of Liberal England" in paperback form. I'll be ordering the other ones in either paperback or hardback (preferably the latter) binding soon. I've always preferred having non-fiction in physical form, preferably a hardback. I have Jenkins' biography on Churchill, which I believe I picked up after reading glowing posts you made on it earlier this year. It used to be easy to walk into a nice independent bookshop and purchase a hardback book on a historic figure. These days, those stores hardly exist and they get by by selling biographies on modern celebrities and other personalities such as sport stars, and of course, the self help books that can go to the moon and back.

Again, thank you!

My pleasure.

I hope you enjoy it: The first chapter is outstanding - I remember a professor of mine enthusing passionately about it when I was an undergrad, - which sent me scurrying to Charing Cross Road in London to buy it (it was out of print at the time - I found it in the legendary Foyle's bookshop) and Eric Hobsbawm (a revered & massively respected historian himself who wrote some wonderful stuff) thought it an superb example of historical - and political - analysis - and engaging writing.

Yes, it has dated a bit, but the first chapter is as good as anything I have read.

I hope you enjoyed Roy Jenkins's book on W. S. Churchill - I thought it first class.

And, as I mentioned earlier, Roy Hattersley's biography of David Lloyd George is excellent.
 
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yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,439
34,276
Texas
My public library decided to be a bit too efficient, so I got the following ordered and delivered from out-of-state libraries. Now I have to read all of them before Christmas...

0819154539.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg



9780818400476-us.jpg


51Gz%2BDcIr9L._SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_.jpg
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
My public library decided to be a bit too efficient, so I got the following ordered and delivered from out-of-state libraries. Now I have to read all of them before Christmas...

0819154539.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg



9780818400476-us.jpg


51Gz%2BDcIr9L._SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_.jpg

Enjoy them.

Clearly, this is the topic you have immersed yourself in, for now.

Sometimes, I do the same thing; indeed, when I was an academic, I used to do it very frequently: On particular topic, I would often read three or four texts - or books - simultaneously, which - taken together - would give you a fairly decent initial overview of a given subject.
 
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yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,439
34,276
Texas
Enjoy them.

Clearly, this is the topic you have immersed yourself in, for now.

Sometimes, I do the same thing; indeed, when I was an academic, I used to do it very frequently: On particular topic, I would often read three or four texts - or books - simultaneously, which - taken together - would give you a fairly decent initial overview of a given subject.

Yep, I am looking for some stuff that I think is applicable in a ... different field. Too early to tell.
Did/do you write books?
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
Yep, I am looking for some stuff that I think is applicable in a ... different field. Too early to tell.
Did/do you write books?

Re Dr Kissinger, I confess that I would be curious to hear his take on what has just happened (and why).

I didn't always agree with him, but he was an exceptionally able and gifted individual, who gave great service to the US, and he is always interesting and well worth listening to.

Yes, to your second sentence.
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,439
34,276
Texas
Re Dr Kissinger, I confess that I would be curious to hear his take on what has just happened (and why).

I didn't always agree with him, but he was an exceptionally able and gifted individual, who gave great service to the US, and he is always interesting and well worth listening to.

Then you should definitely read "World Order", his latest book. It explain many many things, starting from the legacy of Westphalia. His chapter on the internet and social media (I believe the last chapter in the book) should be mandatory reading. Looking at the elections and what is happening I think that he nailed it as he describe with utmost perfection the problem of policy/politics driven by feelings and images. As he puts it:
"
“For all the great and indispensable achievements the Internet has brought to our era, its emphasis is on the actual more than the contingent, on the factual rather than the conceptual, on values shaped by consensus rather than by introspection. Knowledge of history and geography is not essential for those who can evoke their data with the touch of a button. The mindset for walking lonely political paths may not be self-evident to those who seek confirmation by hundreds, sometimes thousands of friends on Facebook.”
[...]
"
“Facts are rarely self-explanatory; their significance, analysis, and interpretation—at least in the foreign policy world—depend on context and relevance. As ever more issues are treated as if of a factual nature, the premise becomes established that for every question there must be a researchable answer, that problems and solutions are not so much to be thought through as to be “looked up."
[...]
"
“The acquisition of knowledge from books provides an experience different from the Internet. Reading is relatively time-consuming; to ease the process, style is important. Because it is not possible to read all books on a given subject, much less the totality of all books, or to organize easily everything one has read, learning from books places a premium on conceptual thinking—the ability to recognize comparable data and events and project patterns into the future. And style propels the reader into a relationship with the author, or with the subject matter, by fusing substance and aesthetics.”
[...]
“Presidential campaigns are on the verge of turning into media contests between master operators of the Internet. What once had been substantive debates about the content of governance will reduce candidates to being spokesmen for a marketing effort pursued by methods whose intrusiveness would have been considered only a generation ago the stuff of science fiction. The candidates’ main role may become fund-raising rather than the elaboration of issues. Is the marketing effort designed to convey the candidate’s convictions, or are the convictions expressed by the candidate the reflections of a “big data” research effort into individuals’ likely preferences and prejudices? Can democracy avoid an evolution toward a demagogic outcome based on emotional mass appeal rather than the reasoned process the Founding Fathers imagined?”
[...]
"
“The advent of Internet news and commentary and data-driven election strategies has not noticeably softened the partisan aspect of American politics; if anything, it has provided a larger audience to the extremes”
[...]

“In such an environment, the participants in the public debate risk being driven less by reasoned arguments than by what catches the mood of the moment. The immediate focus is pounded daily into the public consciousness by advocates whose status is generated by the ability to dramatize. Participants at public demonstrations are rarely assembled around a specific program.”
[...]
"
“What will be the attitudes of those who aspire to be great statesmen in the Internet age? A combination of chronic insecurity and insistent self-assertion threatens both leaders and the public in the Internet age."

I apologize for the length, but the above should give you an idea.
The book was written in 2013, well before the presidential elections.


Yes, to your second sentence.

Should I dare you asking for some titles? (I know it would give away your anonymity, so if you refuse I understand)
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
Then you should definitely read "World Order", his latest book. It explain many many things, starting from the legacy of Westphalia. His chapter on the internet and social media (I believe the last chapter in the book) should be mandatory reading. Looking at the elections and what is happening I think that he nailed it as he describe with utmost perfection the problem of policy/politics driven by feelings and images. As he puts it:
"
“For all the great and indispensable achievements the Internet has brought to our era, its emphasis is on the actual more than the contingent, on the factual rather than the conceptual, on values shaped by consensus rather than by introspection. Knowledge of history and geography is not essential for those who can evoke their data with the touch of a button. The mindset for walking lonely political paths may not be self-evident to those who seek confirmation by hundreds, sometimes thousands of friends on Facebook.”
[...]
"
“Facts are rarely self-explanatory; their significance, analysis, and interpretation—at least in the foreign policy world—depend on context and relevance. As ever more issues are treated as if of a factual nature, the premise becomes established that for every question there must be a researchable answer, that problems and solutions are not so much to be thought through as to be “looked up."
[...]
"
“The acquisition of knowledge from books provides an experience different from the Internet. Reading is relatively time-consuming; to ease the process, style is important. Because it is not possible to read all books on a given subject, much less the totality of all books, or to organize easily everything one has read, learning from books places a premium on conceptual thinking—the ability to recognize comparable data and events and project patterns into the future. And style propels the reader into a relationship with the author, or with the subject matter, by fusing substance and aesthetics.”
[...]
“Presidential campaigns are on the verge of turning into media contests between master operators of the Internet. What once had been substantive debates about the content of governance will reduce candidates to being spokesmen for a marketing effort pursued by methods whose intrusiveness would have been considered only a generation ago the stuff of science fiction. The candidates’ main role may become fund-raising rather than the elaboration of issues. Is the marketing effort designed to convey the candidate’s convictions, or are the convictions expressed by the candidate the reflections of a “big data” research effort into individuals’ likely preferences and prejudices? Can democracy avoid an evolution toward a demagogic outcome based on emotional mass appeal rather than the reasoned process the Founding Fathers imagined?”
[...]
"
“The advent of Internet news and commentary and data-driven election strategies has not noticeably softened the partisan aspect of American politics; if anything, it has provided a larger audience to the extremes”
[...]

“In such an environment, the participants in the public debate risk being driven less by reasoned arguments than by what catches the mood of the moment. The immediate focus is pounded daily into the public consciousness by advocates whose status is generated by the ability to dramatiook ze. Participants at public demonstrations are rarely assembled around a specific program.”
[...]
"
“What will be the attitudes of those who aspire to be great statesmen in the Internet age? A combination of chronic insecurity and insistent self-assertion threatens both leaders and the public in the Internet age."

I apologize for the length, but the above should give you an idea.
The book was written in 2013, well before the presidential elections.




Should I dare you asking for some titles? (I know it would give away your anonymity, so if you refuse I understand)

Interesting quotes from Dr Kissinger, and thanks for posting them; for that matter, "World Order" is probably a book that I would find of considerable interest; must add it to my reading list.

Re your second sentence, no, not for now, and for precisely the reason you mention.
 
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yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,439
34,276
Texas
Just finished "Kissinger: portrait of a mind," good book albeit dated. It's a nice overview of Kissinger's views on the world since childhood without going into too many biographical details. I wrote many notes from it on my commonplace book.

I will start "Bureaucracy and Statesmanship: Henry Kissinger" tonight. I don't want to read it now to be honest; I had something else in mind, but since I will have to return the books to the Library, which will in turn return them to an out of state library, I need to finish them ASAP.
Sometimes efficiency can bite you!
 
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kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,103
8,658
Any place but here or there....
I need something light so Devin Grayson's Doctor Strange prose novel The Fate of Dreams is fitting that bill. So far she is writing the character I remember (not the current bad xerox in the comics). I've kind of let a buddy's novel slide, I like the characters but something is not clicking for me.
 

pachyderm

macrumors G4
Jan 12, 2008
10,784
5,449
Smyrna, TN
...



Should I dare you asking for some titles? (I know it would give away your anonymity, so if you refuse I understand)


I've narrowed it down a bit though:

He's not Tolkien.
He's not Churchill.
He's not Shirer.
He's not Ambrose.
He's not Pratchett.
He's not Lovecraft.
He's not Rowling(thank God!!)
He's not Addams.


I'm holding out hope that he is Neil Gaiman.

The downside being that my current favorite author would know that I'm an idiot.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
I've narrowed it down a bit though:

He's not Tolkien.
He's not Churchill.
He's not Shirer.
He's not Ambrose.
He's not Pratchett.
He's not Lovecraft.
He's not Rowling(thank God!!)
He's not Addams.


I'm holding out hope that he is Neil Gaiman.

The downside being that my current favorite author would know that I'm an idiot.

Well, you do know, that in a faraway corner of my mind, I am - ever so vaguely - contemplating (giving even serious thought to) an alternative existence as an author seeking refuge from politics in the welcoming and less dystopian world of high and low fantasy......
 
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yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,439
34,276
Texas
Just finished the Bureaucracy and Statesmanship book on Kissinger. Short (100p), technical, but a pleasant read.
I decided to take a break from Kissingerian reads as my Italian accent is slowly mutating into a German accent.
I found this today, so this will be my next read:

5F1G7th.jpg
 
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