What if the Apple Silicon Transition merges the MacBook Air with the 13" MacBook Pro?

[dmccloud]

The Dell in the office next door lets me replace the Wi-Fi, RAM, SSD, battery, …, and it's not even "high-end".



Yes, modular GPUs in laptops are rare.



Apple doesn't have to go to that extreme.



First of all, looking at how the market is has never been and shouldn't be the way Apple functions. That kind of attitude would never have shipped the iPhone.

"Ask yourself why every smartphone has a physical keyboard?"

"Ask yourself why almost no computer has a GUI?"

(Because existing hardware is mediocre is why.)



And you have a bad experience, because cellular networking on a Mac is so rare that Apple doesn't even provide an API for apps to know that they should save on data, and because you have to constantly re-connect.

I know how tethering works. It's OK. It's not great. The Mac directly connecting to cellular would be better.

Plus, by your logic, an iPad shouldn't have cellular either.

How many laptops in the consumer market let you swap batteries? If you walk into a Best Buy, the answer is none. Business laptops fall into a different category, so equating that Dell in your office to the Dell Johnny's mom bought him for school is a false analogy.

Apple has been looking at the markets since Jobs came back to the company. They weren't first to the MP3 player market, but they looked at the market and developed a better device in the iPod. They looked at the (then fledgling) smartphone market and built a better smartphone. The same goes for the iPad. In all of those cases, there was significant enough demand present in the market already for Apple to pursue development of those devices, but the goal was to create devices that were superior to the rest of the competitors in that market. In an era of ubiquitous WiFi and relatively generous mobile hotspot allowances, there just isn't a significant demand for cellular capabilities in laptops. The Dell XPS 15 circa 2010 had the option to add a SIM card for cellular devices, but Dell found that less than 10% of customers opted for the version that had the SIM card slot, and most of that small subgroup never added one anyways.

As far as the WiFi experience goes using a hotspot, you couldn't be more wrong. All I have to do is turn on my MBA, select my iPhone from the WiFi menu, connect. It really doesn't get any easier than that for ANY other device or operating system. Furthermore, there are no performance hits from connecting via that method, and I don't drop connection either. I connect, and I have a solid, reliable and fast connection until I shut down the laptop. I would also point out that your attempt to equate my argument to not including cellular capabilities on iPads is a false equivocation, since the iPad is a completely different use case from a MacBook.

 

[chucker23n1]

How many laptops in the consumer market let you swap batteries?

The MBP is a consumer laptop now?

If so, when will Apple make a pro one again?

If you walk into a Best Buy, the answer is none. Business laptops fall into a different category, so equating that Dell in your office to the Dell Johnny's mom bought him for school is a false analogy.

So… why are you making it?

As far as the WiFi experience goes using a hotspot, you couldn't be more wrong. All I have to do is turn on my MBA, select my iPhone from the WiFi menu, connect.

Yes, thank you for explaining the menu bar to me. I’ve only been using Macs since 1992 so I’m kind of a novice.

It’s nowhere near as reliable as a direct connection would be. Have you actually tried using it for, like, ten minutes uninterrupted?

It really doesn't get any easier than that for ANY other device or operating system. Furthermore, there are no performance hits from connecting via that method, and I don't drop connection either. I connect, and I have a solid, reliable and fast connection until I shut down the laptop.

I’m happy your experience is great.

I would also point out that your attempt to equate my argument to not including cellular capabilities on iPads is a false equivocation, since the iPad is a completely different use case from a MacBook.

Um. Because? Are you saying an iPad Pro isn’t a computer? Apple would like to have a word with you.

 

[MisterMe]

Nobody needs it, but you can argue that for the iPad, and even for the Watch.



Uhhhhh. That seems like quite a stretch. The original iPhone shipped with 2G, sure, but that was mainly because they hadn't prioritized it. 3G was already ready at the time, and came to the iPhone one year later.

....

Who shipped a laptop with a 3G cellular modem in 2007?

 

[Kostask]

Dell, in the Lattitude line. Maybe others.

 

[thenewperson]

The MBP is a consumer laptop now?

When was it not?

In any case, it’s really hard to see mobile connectivity come to their laptops considering their previous issues with Qualcomm’s pricing terms. If they ever do, it’ll likely be when the Intel modem business they just bought gets brought up to speed.

 

[chucker23n1]

Who shipped a laptop with a 3G cellular modem in 2007?

Multiple vendors. Certainly Fujitsu; probably also Dell and HP.

 

[Kostask]

....and Panasonic for their Toughbook line.

 

[chucker23n1]

When was it not?

Uhhhhh originally?

The MacBook Pro is clearly the PowerBook's successor, and that was explicitly called not a consumer laptop, so…

 

[thenewperson]

Uhhhhh originally?

View attachment 949574

The MacBook Pro is clearly the PowerBook's successor, and that was explicitly called not a consumer laptop, so…

Ah yeah, I forgot that 4-quadrant thing.

 

[Boil]

Ah yeah, I forgot that 4-quadrant thing.

That was when Steve Jobs came back to Apple & turned thing s around for the better...!

The product line-up was referred to as the 2x2 matrix...

 

[vigilant]

Here's something I've been thinking about ever since the Intel to Apple Silicon transition was formally announced:

Intel has varying CPUs at varying form factor/power consumption/performance tiers (Y-series for the 12" MacBooks and Retina MacBook Airs; U-series for the 13" MacBook Pro; H-series for the 15"/16" MacBook Pros; etc.). I guess it remains to be seen how Apple differentiates its processors across the various Mac lines.

But, it's seeming like Apple is not going to have to have to have such a disparity between, say, the processor it would put in an Apple Silicon replacement to the retina MacBook Air and the processor it would put in an Apple Silicon replacement to the current 13" MacBook Pros because, for Apple Silicon (ARM), Apple has much greater flexibility when it comes to thermal limitations.

So, let's say Apple puts in an SoC into the first Apple Silicon MacBook Air that blows the current Intel 13" 4-port MacBook Pro with its 10th Generation Quad-Core chips out of the water. If Apple tacks on two more USB-C connectors, and adds a TouchBar and adds whatever other remaining features are on the 13" Pro but not the Air, what is the need for a 13" MacBook Pro at that point? Aside from those two ports and maybe the name "Pro", what need is there for two 13" Mac notebooks when an Apple Silicon Air can run rings around an Intel 13" Pro?

I've posed this before in various threads and the best answer for a "why not?" response had to do with marketing. The only case I can see for that is that the word "Pro" sells more than the word "Air". Otherwise, it seems highly redundant to have two 13" Mac notebooks when the supposed "lower end" is able to do everything that its previous "higher end" equivalent could've otherwise done.

As far as Apple's notebooks are concerned, we have a rumored Apple Silicon 13" MacBook Pro in the works. We also have a Apple Silicon MacBook Air that is also in the works. The battery of the latter just passed certification. Are we not sure that the machine rumored to be that first Apple Silicon 13" MacBook Pro isn't INSTEAD an Apple Silicon MacBook Air with Apple either (a) saving the ACTUAL first Apple Silicon replacement to the 13" MacBook Pros for the rumored 14" MacBook Pro launch slated for next year (so that Apple could launch both sizes of Apple Silicon MacBook Pro in unison) or (b) just not having a 13" MacBook Pro in the lineup (because those functions are now adequately served by the MacBook Air finally)?

(I've heard chatter about a 12" MacBook revival, but mostly that's from people that are speaking out of wishful thinking (wanting to see that machine revived for themselves rather than based on facts or anything actually speculative). Certainly, I could picture a 12" and 14" MacBook Air pair or even a scenario where a 12" notebook is either MacBook or MacBook Pro, with the 14" notebook being whichever one the 12" notebook wasn't, and the 16" notebook remaining "MacBook Pro". I could also picture two sizes of MacBook Air. But unless Apple adds something high-end that the Apple Silicon 16" MacBook Pro would also get, it seems silly to keep a lower-end 13" MacBook Pro around. Then again, changing the name of the original 13" MacBook to the 13" MacBook Pro always seemed more like something that was rooted in marketing more than it was about keeping any kind of parity between the 13" and 15"/16"/17" Macs.)

I don’t think Apple will do it. I do think Apple should expand the MacBook Air line to have a 15 “ model, but the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro shouldn’t be merged.

For me it all comes down to expectations and thermal constraints. I am willing to pay more to get more performance. If Apple has a fan in it? Fine whatever, I want the best performance I can get, and if that means a fan to have more CPU and GPU, and higher overall sustained clock speeds, let me give you a check.

Apple, I fully expect, will draw the line between Consumer and Pro models.

They have all of the IP. The needs of a normal consumer or student, isn’t the same as a Pro. Would I love to get everything done on something the size of a 15” or 16” MacBook Air? Of course, but I’m willing to sacrifice to know that when I’m working on things that needs to get out that is high resource needs fast that I’m not held back.

Sure, I’m sure I’m going to hear how I’m wrong. I’d rather Apple move the MacBook Air line of products to Apple Silicon first if they don’t have something that can do what the MacBook Pro does today a year later. Seriously. The Pro apps, I assume, will probably take longer unless Apple surprises us.

Maybe I’ll see something that surprises me, but I’m sticking to that.

 

[Kostask]

The small MacBook Pro isn't going anywhere.It has repeatedly been touted by all the reputable leakers (Mig Chi Kuo. Reme Ritchie, others) as the first AS Mac to be released. A lot has been written here about the "merging" of the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro, and some of the logic has been put forth as to why it will happen. I just don't buy it, and I don't think that Apple will do it. The MacBook Air will be the 13", go everywhere, lightweight, passively cooled machine for people literally on the go (students, etc) or who don't want to spend anything less than the minimum for a MacBook (most consumers), who need something with an attached keyboard and trackpad that runs MacOS. This will replace both the MacBook, current MacBook Air, and the two port MacBook Pro. All that being said, the new MacBook Air will outrun the current MacBook Pro by a considerable margin amd come in at $799-899 base price.

The small MacBook Pro will be the traditional laptop, but will have a 14", better quality, screen, and active cooling. Battery life will improve somewhat, but will NOT match the MacBook Air. It will be faster than the current MacBook Pro 16" in everything except possibly graphics, and be significantly faster than the AS MacBook Air. This will be a $999-$1099 machine base price

 

[Jorbanead]

But the one thing conspicuously absent from this thread is talk of the kinds of use cases that one even has for a 13" MacBook Pro today (other than it being a baseline portable performance given the Air's recent shift to Y-series processors [which honestly, shouldn't have ever been in any Mac.

The MBA 13” comes with: 1.2GHz quad-core Intel Core i7, Turbo up to 3.8GHz, with 8MB L3 cache. Up to 16gb RAM. 2TB Storage. Display: 400nits brightness and sRGB color. 2 TB ports.

The MBP 13” comes with: 2.3GHz quad‑core 10th‑gen i7, Turbo up to 4.1GHz, with 8MB L3 cache. Up to 32gb RAM. 4TB Storage. Display: 500 bits brightness and P3 color. Up to 4 TB ports.

There are certainly differences between the two and reasons to get the MBP over the MBA. However, I don’t think Apple actually wants these laptops to overlap as much as they currently do. I think they were obviously restricted by intels thermals, and I assume the air lineup will go fan-less while the pro lines will still have active cooling.

I think we should look at the iPads and iPhones for inspiration here. What if both the new 14” and 16” MacBook pros use the same processors. What if the main difference between the 14” and 16” MacBook Pros are just size and battery life. Just how the flagship iPhone Pro and iPad Pro models have two sizes but use the same processors - I feel the MBP lineup could do the same thing.

That would widen the gap so to speak from the low-end MBP and the MBA. As all pro models will have the same processors. They could even split it up how the rumored iPhone 12 is split.

Have two sizes for the cheaper options, and two sizes for the pro options. So something like this:

MacBook Air 12” and 14” LED, 2 ports

MacBook Pro 14” and 16” mini LED, 4 ports

Then Apple only needs to design and manufacture two lineups of processors, but they get 4 products out of the deal which would help with chip R&D costs too. I don’t think this will happen until 2021 though as the first MBP is going to be 13”.

 

[thenewperson]

"MBA replacing 13-inch MBP" is basically the MBA subsuming the 2-port MBP and the 4-port model becomes the 14". So the MBA remains as the only 13" computer they have. Also there's an expectation that whatever goes into the MBA will beat all that's in the MBPs right now.

Also a 13/15 Air line would be so good. Always hoped they'd kill the 2-port MBP and just use those 15W chips in a 15" Air instead.

 

[dmccloud]

It’s nowhere near as reliable as a direct connection would be. Have you actually tried using it for, like, ten minutes uninterrupted?

Right now I'm at 1 hour, 53 minutes and counting without even a hiccup in connectivity, let alone the connection dropping entirely.

 

[Yebubbleman]

I don’t think Apple will do it. I do think Apple should expand the MacBook Air line to have a 15 “ model, but the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro shouldn’t be merged.

For me it all comes down to expectations and thermal constraints. I am willing to pay more to get more performance. If Apple has a fan in it? Fine whatever, I want the best performance I can get, and if that means a fan to have more CPU and GPU, and higher overall sustained clock speeds, let me give you a check.

Apple, I fully expect, will draw the line between Consumer and Pro models.

They have all of the IP. The needs of a normal consumer or student, isn’t the same as a Pro. Would I love to get everything done on something the size of a 15” or 16” MacBook Air? Of course, but I’m willing to sacrifice to know that when I’m working on things that needs to get out that is high resource needs fast that I’m not held back.

Sure, I’m sure I’m going to hear how I’m wrong. I’d rather Apple move the MacBook Air line of products to Apple Silicon first if they don’t have something that can do what the MacBook Pro does today a year later. Seriously. The Pro apps, I assume, will probably take longer unless Apple surprises us.

Maybe I’ll see something that surprises me, but I’m sticking to that.

I'd love a 15" MacBook Air. Have wanted one since 2010. Definitely never happening though; Apple assumes that if you want the biggest screen, you also want the best performance that it's willing to cram into it (case in point: iPhone Xs/11Pro Max, 12.9" iPad Pro, 16" MacBook Pro, etc.)

My point isn't that there won't be a 14" MacBook Pro or even an Apple Silicon model of 13" MacBook Pro. My point is that the reasons for there being three different kinds of 13" Mac notebook ENTIRELY had to do with the thermal limitations of the Intel CPUs going into those three notebooks. Apple will not have those restrictions in place when they make the move to Apple Silicon. That will not be a concern. Period. So, whatever Apple replaces the Intel 13" MacBook Pros (both of them) with will need to justify its existence by being markedly more powerful than what a potential Apple Silicon MacBook Air could do. And seeing as thermal limitations aren't going to be an inhibiting factor (as Apple will be able to get way better performance without hitting the thermal limits of the chasses), that means that they're really going to really push the 13"/14" MacBook Pro into the 16" MacBook Pro's territory and not the joke of a Pro-in-name-only caliber of performance it is today with Intel inside.

The small MacBook Pro isn't going anywhere.It has repeatedly been touted by all the reputable leakers (Mig Chi Kuo. Reme Ritchie, others) as the first AS Mac to be released. A lot has been written here about the "merging" of the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro, and some of the logic has been put forth as to why it will happen. I just don't buy it, and I don't think that Apple will do it. The MacBook Air will be the 13", go everywhere, lightweight, passively cooled machine for people literally on the go (students, etc) or who don't want to spend anything less than the minimum for a MacBook (most consumers), who need something with an attached keyboard and trackpad that runs MacOS. This will replace both the MacBook, current MacBook Air, and the two port MacBook Pro. All that being said, the new MacBook Air will outrun the current MacBook Pro by a considerable margin amd come in at $799-899 base price.

The small MacBook Pro will be the traditional laptop, but will have a 14", better quality, screen, and active cooling. Battery life will improve somewhat, but will NOT match the MacBook Air. It will be faster than the current MacBook Pro 16" in everything except possibly graphics, and be significantly faster than the AS MacBook Air. This will be a $999-$1099 machine base price

Kuo notes that the 13" MacBook Pro is going first based on supply chain rumors. The supply chain could easily be giving signs that a MacBook Air is coming that could replace at least one of the two 13" MacBook Pro models. Furthermore, if, for instance, Kuo noted Apple buying up more touchbar supplies (that would, today, be more likely to go into a 13" MacBook Pro), but the Air is instead slated to receive the TouchBar, it could lead people to misinterpret that as a 13" MacBook Pro refresh (which would explain why, despite the 13" MacBook Pro supposedly going first, we saw a new MacBook Air battery leak first).

I'm not saying we won't see an Apple Silicon 13" MacBook Pro or even an Apple Silicon 14" MacBook Pro. I think, SOME kind of Apple Silicon Mac geared to the current customers of either model of Intel 13" MacBook Pro is forthcoming and will be first. I think that, given, both Kuo's predictions and that MacBook Air battery, that's all we can really say for sure right now.

What I AM saying is that Intel performance and thermal limits were the only thing that mandated so many 13" computers. Also, that there are only so many use cases that are not served sufficiently by either a MacBook Air or a 16" MacBook Pro, especially when the former isn't hamstrung by weak Intel Y-series processors that Apple shouldn't have ever adopted to begin with.

The MBA 13” comes with: 1.2GHz quad-core Intel Core i7, Turbo up to 3.8GHz, with 8MB L3 cache. Up to 16gb RAM. 2TB Storage. Display: 400nits brightness and sRGB color. 2 TB ports.

The MBP 13” comes with: 2.3GHz quad‑core 10th‑gen i7, Turbo up to 4.1GHz, with 8MB L3 cache. Up to 32gb RAM. 4TB Storage. Display: 500 bits brightness and P3 color. Up to 4 TB ports.

There are certainly differences between the two and reasons to get the MBP over the MBA. However, I don’t think Apple actually wants these laptops to overlap as much as they currently do. I think they were obviously restricted by intels thermals, and I assume the air lineup will go fan-less while the pro lines will still have active cooling.

I think we should look at the iPads and iPhones for inspiration here. What if both the new 14” and 16” MacBook pros use the same processors. What if the main difference between the 14” and 16” MacBook Pros are just size and battery life. Just how the flagship iPhone Pro and iPad Pro models have two sizes but use the same processors - I feel the MBP lineup could do the same thing.

That would widen the gap so to speak from the low-end MBP and the MBA. As all pro models will have the same processors. They could even split it up how the rumored iPhone 12 is split.

Have two sizes for the cheaper options, and two sizes for the pro options. So something like this:

MacBook Air 12” and 14” LED, 2 ports

MacBook Pro 14” and 16” mini LED, 4 ports

Then Apple only needs to design and manufacture two lineups of processors, but they get 4 products out of the deal which would help with chip R&D costs too. I don’t think this will happen until 2021 though as the first MBP is going to be 13”.

Apple doesn't need two of any size of laptop. Unless they used one class of CPUs for the Air line and another for the Pro line (like what they currently do with the iPad Air and iPad Pro right now), I don't see them doing it. They may do that. But they won't be doing it out of necessity. Again, I don't know that you're going to have Pro customers wanting a 14" Mac notebook, but having to have the power of the 16" MacBook Pro and not just wanting to go up a size, especially when Apple Silicon will narrow the performance gaps considerably.

"MBA replacing 13-inch MBP" is basically the MBA subsuming the 2-port MBP and the 4-port model becomes the 14". So the MBA remains as the only 13" computer they have. Also there's an expectation that whatever goes into the MBA will beat all that's in the MBPs right now.

Also a 13/15 Air line would be so good. Always hoped they'd kill the 2-port MBP and just use those 15W chips in a 15" Air instead.

I do certainly suspect that the MBA will subsume the 2-port 13" MacBook Pro, at the very least. It would certainly be fitting considering the 2-port 13" MacBook Pro is essentially the continuation of the 2010-2017 13" MacBook Air (just like the 2018-2020 Air is the continuation of the 12" Retina MacBook) and it would restore the MacBook Air product line to respectable levels of performance (unlike the current Y-series Intel based trash).

Again, the only reason for this thread is that, there are minimal use cases that couldn't be served by a competent Air or a 16" Pro instead. In the Intel era, the 13" Pro is basically an over-glorified polycarbonate MacBook and is the continuation of that product line from a technical standpoint. If you have an Air that can assume that responsibility, what need does one have for yet another machine of that size category?

 

[thenewperson]

Again, I don't know that you're going to have Pro customers wanting a 14" Mac notebook, but having to have the power of the 16" MacBook Pro and not just wanting to go up a size, especially when Apple Silicon will narrow the performance gaps considerably.

If not for the current pandemic keeping a lot of people home, I really wouldn't be surprised quite a few would want this. Some people don't like the size of the 16" and would gladly take a 14" with performance on par (or very close to it).

 

[chucker23n1]

If not for the current pandemic keeping a lot of people home, I really wouldn't be surprised quite a few would want this. Some people don't like the size of the 16" and would gladly take a 14" with performance on par (or very close to it).

Yup. I do think there's a market for a return of the 12-inch PowerBook (I guess Apple thinks the market isn't that big?). It would have to be fatter than the current 13-inch MacBook Pro if you want similar performance.

 

[Yebubbleman]

If not for the current pandemic keeping a lot of people home, I really wouldn't be surprised quite a few would want this. Some people don't like the size of the 16" and would gladly take a 14" with performance on par (or very close to it).

I would think with people not leaving home, that there's even less need for a smaller high-performance notebook. The use cases that Apple likes to tote for users of a 12"/13"/14" "Pro" machine are photographers, but, from a technological standpoint, performance level of 2018-2020 MacBook Airs aside, I have no idea what it is about that function that necessitates performance that is on the 13" Pro, isn't on the Air, and isn't necessary from the 15"/16" Pro. The 13" Pro and 2010-17 Air/Two-port 13" Pro have never been SO different from each other in terms of performance such that the former offers THAT MUCH more performance without the need to scale up to 15"/16" territory.

Again, not saying that Apple can't or won't make a performant 13"/14" MacBook Pro with Apple Silicon, but this machine needs to justify its existence more than just "people want different sizes". Apple already has two size options; it doesn't need FOUR computers between them.

 

[dmccloud]

I would think with people not leaving home, that there's even less need for a smaller high-performance notebook. The use cases that Apple likes to tote for users of a 12"/13"/14" "Pro" machine are photographers, but, from a technological standpoint, performance level of 2018-2020 MacBook Airs aside, I have no idea what it is about that function that necessitates performance that is on the 13" Pro, isn't on the Air, and isn't necessary from the 15"/16" Pro. The 13" Pro and 2010-17 Air/Two-port 13" Pro have never been SO different from each other in terms of performance such that the former offers THAT MUCH more performance without the need to scale up to 15"/16" territory.

Again, not saying that Apple can't or won't make a performant 13"/14" MacBook Pro with Apple Silicon, but this machine needs to justify its existence more than just "people want different sizes". Apple already has two size options; it doesn't need FOUR computers between them.

Technically Apple already has four series of laptops: MBA, 13" MBP (2 port), 13" MBP (4 port, faster CPU and upgraded iGPU), 16" MBP. Whatever Apple decides to do with the MacBook product lines going forward, I have a suspicion that they will keep a similar structure, although the specific details of each line could change significantly with the switch to Apple Silicon.