What Intel software will you miss after the Arm transition?

[Nugget]

Any idea on how people will virtualise Windows? Only with Windows 10 ARM version I suppose?

Yeah, Windows for ARM is the only feasible approach to virtualizing Windows. If you're not familiar with Windows for ARM, though, it's not really very useful. It's a languishing and stagnant platform that isn't seeing much love or attention from Microsoft currently. That could change, depending on Microsoft's future platform strategies, but for now it's not likely to be a satisfying or performant solution for Mac users who will continue to need Windows compatibility in a post-Intel landscape.

More broadly, I expect QEMU to provide a technically functional solution, but as with all forms of cross-architecture it's unrealistic to expect good performance. I don't think it will take too long before you can fire up an emulated x86/Windows environment via QEMU but I doubt that will ever be a solution you'd want to rely on for day-to-day tasks. Sufficient for one-off or irregular tasks though that aren't very demanding.

It's possible that Apple include some assistive functions in their custom ARM silicon to make a QEMU-style emulation more practical, but I wouldn't bet my workflow on that. Even in the best possible case scenario it's never going to achieve virtualization-level performance or reliability.

 

[Cliff3]

A lot of people are concerned about losing Intel software support on Mac after the Arm transition.

As a developer, Im curious to know what software are you afraid to lose?

VMWare Fusion with a Win10 VM. I run Ross-Tech's VCDS to diagnose issues with my VW and it is a Windows-only product. I also use Windows-only software from AiM Sports to manage an automotive datalogging device (AiM SoloDL) and their Race Studio Analysis software to analyze and interpret the data retrieved from the datalogger. If I can no longer run Windows as a VM on my Mac then I will need a machine that can run Windows. Then the question becomes, do I really still need a Mac, or is the choice of a Mac simply a preference that is overruled by my requirements?

 

[Nugget]

AiM Sports to manage an automotive datalogging device (AiM SoloDL)

I picked up a cheap Windows laptop years ago for AiM SoloDL, Race-Keeper HD, and my Durametric Diagnostic software. Cost about $500 and I don't care if it gets run over by someone's Spec Miata. It's nice having a portable I don't really care about for the paddock and around the track. Still, yeah, the lack of Windows VM capability is probably going to be fatal to me and my customer relationship with Apple.

 

[Shivetya]

probably the other half of my Steam library that Catalina did not kill

 

[maflynn]

As a developer, Im curious to know what software are you afraid to lose?

None, in not leaving the x86 platform

 

[Cliff3]

I picked up a cheap Windows laptop years ago for AiM SoloDL, Race-Keeper HD, and my Durametric Diagnostic software. Cost about $500 and I don't care if it gets run over by someone's Spec Miata. It's nice having a portable I don't really care about for the paddock and around the track. Still, yeah, the lack of Windows VM capability is probably going to be fatal to me and my customer relationship with Apple.

I'd be more inclined to buy an Intel based MBP and hold onto it for a few years until the situation sorts itself out. I'm careful with my laptop so I am not worried about it getting run over or otherwise destroyed. The 2020 MBP13 changes appeal to me since I can buy a 13" machine with a 2TB SSD and an un-screwed up (or at least less screwed up) keyboard for the same price that I paid for my 2018 MBP13 with a 500GB SSD.

 

[BootLoxes]

I really cant think of any software that I will miss. I mostly use the apple programs which according to the keynote are already running on ARM. All that was left was the affinity suite which already have an iPAD version so I would expect a native arm version to follow soon for the mac.

I could say zbrush but I am sure they will also port their software over. If not then I will just run it on my desktop so no real loss

 

[MrGunnyPT]

For those worried about loosing Windows support, there is still another shoe to drop. Microsoft has developed an Arm version of Windows 10. It's not completely done yet but the roadmap to completion is not that long. Let's see what they do. In the meantime, It looks like Parallels is working with Apple. Let's see what that brings. VM Ware is not a stupid company, they might have something up their sleeve yet to come.

Yeah, Windows for ARM is the only feasible approach to virtualizing Windows. If you're not familiar with Windows for ARM, though, it's not really very useful. It's a languishing and stagnant platform that isn't seeing much love or attention from Microsoft currently. That could change, depending on Microsoft's future platform strategies, but for now it's not likely to be a satisfying or performant solution for Mac users who will continue to need Windows compatibility in a post-Intel landscape.

More broadly, I expect QEMU to provide a technically functional solution, but as with all forms of cross-architecture it's unrealistic to expect good performance. I don't think it will take too long before you can fire up an emulated x86/Windows environment via QEMU but I doubt that will ever be a solution you'd want to rely on for day-to-day tasks. Sufficient for one-off or irregular tasks though that aren't very demanding.

It's possible that Apple include some assistive functions in their custom ARM silicon to make a QEMU-style emulation more practical, but I wouldn't bet my workflow on that. Even in the best possible case scenario it's never going to achieve virtualization-level performance or reliability.

Anything outside of ARM could be a pipe dream really. Better wait and see

 

[Thilus]

There are only a few games I play. But some blizzard games are among them.
I think Hearthstone should be easy, since there is an iOS version but I am concerned about WoW.

 

[ondert]

Well.. I use some of the engineering apps on macOS and some on Windows through bootcamp and I also screen record my gameplays on macOS, edit and export them to upload to YouTube. This arm transition put me in a worrisome position. I already started to think building a nice looking mini itx PC, it might be even a ryzentosh because I have a 2019 iMac 5k and still don’t believe AS Mac will fullfil my needs after the transition completed.

 

[johngwheeler]

Can anyone work out the logic here?

Apple used to use Motorola to make proprietary chips, then to Intel and now back to another proprietary chip, this time with Arm?

Apple are not buying chips from ARM. ARM doesn't make chips - they provide design blueprints and microcode licences. Apple use these to design their own ARM-architecture chips, manufactured by TSMC in Taiwan.

So these will very much be "Apple Silicon", just using some elements of a standardised CPU architecture.

 

[Stephen.R]

Apple are not buying chips from ARM. ARM doesn't make chips - they provide design blueprints and microcode licences. Apple use these to design their own ARM-architecture chips, manufactured by TSMC in Taiwan.

So these will very much be "Apple Silicon", just using some elements of a standardised CPU architecture.

I still find it hilarious that multiple people have made the claim "going (back) to a proprietary CPU" - as if somehow modern recent x86 designs are open and freely implementable by anyone. If you want a 586, sure, x86 is patent-free.

 

[tdar]

Anything outside of ARM could be a pipe dream really. Better wait and see

Every day I come up with another way to get windows apps (and windows itself) “running “ on Apple Silicon Macs.
Today’s is this: Microsoft has a Mac version of Remote Desktop Client. I am sure that they will port it. I expect that they’re going to port all of their Mac software.
So one gets a low cost windows computer
( we bought my girlfriends grandson a Acer laptop for Christmas for $129 ) and set it up connected to the network and now with RDC you can run windows and any windows program on your new Mac.
There are going to be lots of answers to the windows issue. That’s just not going to be a problem.

 

[maflynn]

I still find it hilarious that multiple people have made the claim "going (back) to a proprietary CPU" - as if somehow modern recent x86 designs are open and freely implementable by anyone. If you want a 586, sure, x86 is patent-free.

You're missing the point. Instead of using industry standard components, apple is using proprietary. It has nothing to do with intel being patent free or not

 

[Stephen.R]

You're missing the point. Instead of using industry standard components, apple is using proprietary. It has nothing to do with intel being patent free or not

You’re missing my point.

x86 is as proprietary, if not more, than ppc or arm.

 

[maflynn]

You’re missing my point.

x86 is as proprietary, if not more, than ppc or arm.

No I'm not, I get your point but in people's conversations, dialogs and reviews, people are using proprietary in a manner that Apple is moving away from industry-standard parts. You were making fun of people for doing just that, but what they said made sense.

 

[Stephen.R]

No I'm not, I get your point but in people's conversations, dialogs and reviews, people are using proprietary in a manner that Apple is moving away from industry-standard parts. You were making fun of people for doing just that, but what they said made sense.

What they said makes sense if you ignore the meaning of the words they use.

Gotcha.

 

[Mac Heretic]

Original Microsoft Solitaire games and Minesweeper for Windows XP, run through virtualization.
[automerge]1593117394[/automerge]

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Guys, words can have multiple definitions.

Some people use certain words in a layperson's terms while others use words as more technical nomenclature.

Tired old example: a tomato is a vegetable not a fruit.

Try to remember that this site attracts people of various language skills (including different native languages) and different levels of technical expertise and interest.

A technologist's idea of a word might be different than what Joe Consumer thinks it means. Try to accept others outside your technologist bubble world.

As for the usage of proprietary, it can have multiple meanings.

I can't go out and buy an A12X SoC and plug it into the compatible motherboard. However, I can buy an Intel CPU and plug it into the appropriate Asus/whoever motherboard.

Using the word "proprietary" to describe Apple Silicon is perfectly appropriate in this conversation.

 

[Stephen.R]

Guys, words can have multiple definitions.

Ok, show me the definition - informal if you must - that somehow ppc and arm cpus meet but intel cpus don’t.

Using the word "proprietary" to describe Apple Silicon is perfectly appropriate in this conversation.

I never said their cpus aren’t proprietary. I said the tone that suggests theirs are while intels aren’t is ridiculous.

do you even know the definition of proprietary? It just means it’s sold under a registered trade name.

if you can find me a no-name x86 cpu I’ll retract my statement and eat my ****ing hat.

 

[limo79]

The truth is that Mac were and are good ONLY in some areas - very very specialized areas using ONLY specific (optimized) tools like audio/photo/video editing. But since Apple left prosumers alone and push more interesting in young consumers requirements are different now web browsing, light photo/video/audio editing etc. So there is no to worry about some specific but non-popular engineering tools because honestly Macs were NEVER good to run professional engineering tools in electronics, physics, calculations, fluid, dynamics, mechanical engineering etc. Also software life on Macs was extremely short due to Mac OS(X) changes and requirements generating cost for prosumers more that in case of Windows machines (especially Windows XP/7) where we had decades of compatibility. There is no reason to cry after BootCamp since I always hated to had one leg in Mac OS(X) and one leg on Windows. Psychologically switching between multipe OS to get things done was and is unomfortable. Also BootCamp drivers were always a limited compared to Mac OS(X) drivers eg. gestures or temperature problems because from some reason GPU cannot be switched between internal and discreet graphics. Regarding virtualization (VMware, Parallels etc) this solution on Mac was also poor in my opinion (I run all my VMs but on Windows workstation which is a perfect work environment for every engineer and currently there is no better solution taking in fact software availablity, performance, CPU/GPU hardware feature utilization etc.).

Nowadays Mac is most of the time a web browsing machine so migrating to ARM is a good idea assuming one thing - if Apple wants to realase some kick ass products soon with excellent battery life and low temperatures (eg passive cooling) without such issues like multipage thread about external monitor fan noise and other hardware issues. However if coming Macbooks (especially Macbook Pro) will disappoint regarding performance and energy consumption this may be a fatal move for Apple and there is a high risk that Apple computers will be again good tools but fo extremely limited group of users. The decision to use an Intel definitely helped Apple to be more popular during last years. What is more funny Apple decide to leave Intel at the moment when Intel created really promising products like Tiger Lake with far better internal GPU results but we need to remember Apple has a better view inside of Intel performance and roadmap.

To conclude I wish Apple team success and based on iPad Pro performance we can be sure that ARM team inside Apple is possibly the best engineering team in Cupertino campus. The only thing that concerns me is migration time (2 years) and again using Rosetta which means that Mac OS is again like construction site so there will be some mess and reduced performance (even if Apple claim that everything is superb). After some time again we will get a several years of waiting since Rosetta 2 will be finally removed. For everyone who likes a clean Mac OS environment (to get rid of uncessesary old code) this might be annoying based on old Mac OS experience. Another story is also a hardware - after presenting ARM plans there is no sense to invest in Mac on Intel. In my opinion Apple should to move to ARM more rapidly (during max 12 months) especially taking in fact that most of mentioned specialized software used on Mac like Final Cut X is made by Apple. So from marketing point of view ARM migration announcement was a miss without presenting new MacBooks on ARM. If Skylake CPU family was one of the reason to finally make such drastic decision there was a time to prepare a new hardware.

 

[Nate Lupo]

I’m hoping Microsoft can work out the office 365 bundle to work on Arm based macs.

 

[limo79]

Who cares about MS Office while Office will be available only in cloud sooner or later. There will be no sense to install it and run on specific architecture.

 

[Jyby]

Science Rules!

 

[KPOM]

I’m hoping Microsoft can work out the office 365 bundle to work on Arm based macs.

It’s already running on Apple Silicon. Apple ran demos on Monday.