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phrehdd

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Oct 25, 2008
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That was a big draw for me to the Fuji X system. I love the dials and manual functions.
I also shoot film on a Fuji GX617 which is fully analogue (no meter etc) and has a lot of manual operation. It gives me a lot of satisfaction when I nail a shot using it, especially on Velvia 50 :)

There are a few of us who used Fuji roll film cameras with great delight. While I have used Blads from time to time, people were absolutely sure many of my images from the GS 645 and GW 645 were from a Blad.

I would be in awe if Fuji made something akin to a larger format rangefinder with a tack sharp lens that was akin to the x100 and had extremely well crafted lens supplements for wider and telephoto. What a killer combo that would be with lots of file data to work with.

Btw, though Fuji enlarger lenses were not known to be the "best" lenses for pro work, I found them very useful for work devoted towards portraits and some intimate work. They were not soft but as some in the dark room world know, that the lens too can add to the way prints look from both diffused and condenser enlargers.
 

fathergll

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2014
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Someone correct me if I am wrong but currently there is no mirrorless camera in the world that has all of the following attributes in one camera.

  • full frame
  • dual card slots
  • great battery life

I think that needs to be addressed for some of the more serious users. I am sure it will be at some point.
 

kenoh

macrumors 604
Jul 18, 2008
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While they are effectively driving two LCD screens, then battery life will continue to be a limitation without substantial increase in battery size.

Said increase then breaks the #1 rule of fight club...Argh I mean the mirrorless argument... Compact design... o_O
 
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MCAsan

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Jul 9, 2012
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So you can't carry 2 extra batteries the size of a box of matches in your pocket while out on a shoot? o_O
 

kenoh

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So you can't carry 2 extra batteries the size of a box of matches in your pocket while out on a shoot? o_O

I know right? Some of these arguments are just preposterous right?
[doublepost=1483990156][/doublepost]
Then change them just as the squirrel rides the eagle by standing on his back as he flies through the air! ;)

Well you know you have 300 shots per battery notice... No need to leave it to the last shot...

And I find the thing that gets me in that scenario most often is having the camera setup for brackets and long exposure, then something comes along that I want to snap like a bird or said squirrel aviator... at which point the battery is the least of my worries :(
 
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Apple fanboy

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Feb 21, 2012
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I know right? Some of these arguments are just preposterous right?
[doublepost=1483990156][/doublepost]

Well you know you have 300 shots per battery notice... No need to leave it to the last shot...

And I find the thing that gets me in that scenario most often is having the camera setup for brackets and long exposure, then something comes along that I want to snap like a bird or said squirrel aviator... at which point the battery is the least of my worries :(
Or the wrong lens on the thing! I need more patient wildlife!
 
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kenoh

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Or the wrong lens on the thing! I need more patient wildlife!

Static wildlife is more my niche...:)
[doublepost=1483991910][/doublepost]
Is this directed at me?
No.

BTW I shoot mirrorless.

But the market make a big thing about compact and battery life and evf vs ovf and big lenses vs little...

At the end of the day it is what fits each person's needs and they make the decision.
 
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fathergll

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Sep 3, 2014
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Not directly no.

BTW I shoot mirrorless.

But the market make a big thing about compact and battery life and evf vs ovf and big lenses vs little...

At the end of the day of it what fits each person's needs and they make the decision.



Right, I'm simply stating there isn't a mirrorless camera that has those three things currently and it's pretty common in the DSLR world. I didn't weigh each item in terms of importance(I certainly don't think battery life is as big of a deal as dual card slots for example) and I'm confident they will improve or be addressed within the next decade.
 

kenoh

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Right, I'm simply stating there isn't a mirrorless camera that has those three things currently and it's pretty common in the DSLR world. I didn't weigh each item in terms of importance(I certainly don't think battery life is as big of a deal as dual card slots for example) and I'm confident they will improve or be addressed within the next decade.

Dual cards would be the one for me I think. I have lost some card contents but thankfully as I shoot JPEG+raw I could recover the jpgs. I have only lost contents though when loading on my Surface Pro not the camera but even still I get real nervous.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
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Dual cards would be the one for me I think. I have lost some card contents but thankfully as I shoot JPEG+raw I could recover the jpgs. I have only lost contents though when loading on my Surface Pro not the camera but even still I get real nervous.
Shoot RAW + RAW. I'll leave the j-pegs for the snappers!
 

Mark0

macrumors 6502a
Sep 11, 2014
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My X-T2 has dual card slots and the the booster grip, making 3 batteries overall. It takes very little time to swap batteries out in reality. It uses the two in the grip first then the one in the body. All of this and it's still smaller and lighter than my old 5D and grip. It's maybe not for everyone, especially being APS-C but the gap between the two sensor sizes isn't as glaringly obvious compared to what is used to be. However, obviously full frame will still technically perform better.
 

phrehdd

Contributor
Oct 25, 2008
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My X-T2 has dual card slots and the the booster grip, making 3 batteries overall. It takes very little time to swap batteries out in reality. It uses the two in the grip first then the one in the body. All of this and it's still smaller and lighter than my old 5D and grip. It's maybe not for everyone, especially being APS-C but the gap between the two sensor sizes isn't as glaringly obvious compared to what is used to be. However, obviously full frame will still technically perform better.

I was with you all the way until you said a FF will technically perform better. I have seen time after time comparison between some FF and some "crop sensor" cameras with their respective lenses in shoot outs for contrast and compare. FF doesn't always win. Some crop sensor cameras have not only better optics but under not extreme conditions, it is very hard to tell apart FF from crop when the pixel count is similar. The differences show up more in extremes of over and under exposure recovery and shooting at high "ISO" where more noise occurs. I welcome those that have contrary takes on what I put forth.
 

Apple fanboy

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Feb 21, 2012
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I was with you all the way until you said a FF will technically perform better. I have seen time after time comparison between some FF and some "crop sensor" cameras with their respective lenses in shoot outs for contrast and compare. FF doesn't always win. Some crop sensor cameras have not only better optics but under not extreme conditions, it is very hard to tell apart FF from crop when the pixel count is similar. The differences show up more in extremes of over and under exposure recovery and shooting at high "ISO" where more noise occurs. I welcome those that have contrary takes on what I put forth.
No I agree l. I own an APS-C and FF body (D7100 & D750), both of which are 24mp.
In good lighting there is less difference between them. However in low light it is much more noticeable.
I'd say the D750 has better dynamic range as well.
But then my iPhone 7+ takes good pictures in good lighting.
It's all relative.
 

phrehdd

Contributor
Oct 25, 2008
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No I agree l. I own an APS-C and FF body (D7100 & D750), both of which are 24mp.
In good lighting there is less difference between them. However in low light it is much more noticeable.
I'd say the D750 has better dynamic range as well.
But then my iPhone 7+ takes good pictures in good lighting.
It's all relative.

What I find (just my perspective alone) is that those raised on digital take for granted so many thing that us old film folks had to learn about and develop some craft and vision to over come limitations. We had to consider how far to push film and yet have usable results, when long exposure reciprocity works for you or against you and more. Today I admit I get a kick about (on camera/photo sites) people commenting on how "lousy" a particular camera performs at certain ISO that pretty much typical well trained/pro film photographer would never have had access to in real world instances. There are of course other things but this example was the most obvious. There is a certain matter of fact attitude if not cavalier by some started with digital (rather than fllm) folks in discussing features and quality (and perhaps as it should be, as it is entirely their generation).
 

Mark0

macrumors 6502a
Sep 11, 2014
516
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SW Scotland
I was with you all the way until you said a FF will technically perform better. I have seen time after time comparison between some FF and some "crop sensor" cameras with their respective lenses in shoot outs for contrast and compare. FF doesn't always win. Some crop sensor cameras have not only better optics but under not extreme conditions, it is very hard to tell apart FF from crop when the pixel count is similar. The differences show up more in extremes of over and under exposure recovery and shooting at high "ISO" where more noise occurs. I welcome those that have contrary takes on what I put forth.


I mean with regard to high ISO, such as for night sky photography. There is also the depth of field argument I guess.
I should have stated that with my original post. I agree that APS-C / FF photos printed to A3 etc and set side-by side would be difficult to tell apart :)

What I find (just my perspective alone) is that those raised on digital take for granted so many thing that us old film folks had to learn about and develop some craft and vision to over come limitations. We had to consider how far to push film and yet have usable results, when long exposure reciprocity works for you or against you and more.

Overcoming these things and the challenge of shooting unforgiving slide film is why I love my GX617. It puts my technique to the test :) This one being a great example, although I'm not 100% happy with it...

10682447_981492345211040_7686355208022240009_o.jpg
 
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kenoh

macrumors 604
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I mean with regard to high ISO, such as for night sky photography. There is also the depth of field argument I guess.
I should have stated that with my original post. I agree that APS-C / FF photos printed to A3 etc and set side-by side would be difficult to tell apart :)



Overcoming these things and the challenge of shooting unforgiving slide film is why I love my GX617. It puts my technique to the test :) This one being a great example, although I'm not 100% happy with it...

View attachment 682805

That is a nice photo. Panoramic camera (scratches chin not knowing they existed but is now intrigued)... sounds interesting...

The image is a nice picture but there is something about the tone of the water and the lighter rocks along the immediate shore lines that (unfairly to you) make the water look like it has been photoshopped a little. Which is a shame as we know it hasnt been.
 

Mark0

macrumors 6502a
Sep 11, 2014
516
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SW Scotland
That is a nice photo. Panoramic camera (scratches chin not knowing they existed but is now intrigued)... sounds interesting...

The image is a nice picture but there is something about the tone of the water and the lighter rocks along the immediate shore lines that (unfairly to you) make the water look like it has been photoshopped a little. Which is a shame as we know it hasnt been.


I know what you mean. It looks much better on print as you'd expect :) As for PP, all I did was lift foreground shadows, dodge and burn a wee bit, adjust contrast and colour correct the magenta colour cast that Velvia 50 can take on. You should see the actual 6cm by 17cm slide, the yellow sunlight is that vivid. It came out of nowhere.
 
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fathergll

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Sep 3, 2014
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I agree with Apple fanboy. It mostly comes down to technical advantages when sufficient light is not available. The difference between an iPhone and a medium format Phase One isn't big if you take the photo in bright sun and you don't view it big. Really it's just a matter of using tech to your advantages. The Revenant was able to use natural light because it was shot with cutting edge digital camera(6.5K Alexa). That wouldn't have worked with 35mm film. If the tools are there then you should use them.
 
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ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
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Okay, I'll bite. I like the Fuji X line up but I never make a point to knock mirror system cameras nor advance the notion that EVF (not EFV) is superior. In reality both range finder (direct optical) and then SLR are both superior to EVF in at least 2 of 3 known areas of optical testing. However, EVF are catching up and with some work may offer even more than what our own eyes can detect (such as "night" view for very dim light).
EVF can do things that optical cannot - WYSIWYG evaluation of exposure, for example. Magnification for manual focus peaking, image playback for evaluation... Yes, it's true that optical is superior in certain tests - it's optics vs. electronics, after all. Lag of some sort will always exist (though it may become imperceptible); the resolution of the EVF is not likely to match that of the imaging sensor. The question is whether certain measures of optical superiority outweigh the functional benefits delivered by an electronic display.

Somehow "new photographers" may find themselves at a real disadvantage over us folks that have had film camera experience, all manual lens experience and yeah, actually had to think about what we were doing. My like for much of the Fuji X line is because it offers me a more natural experience akin to past days gone by with its dial options as opposed to just buttons and "in menu" options. In fact, the real success of the Fuji X line came from a rangefinder style camera with a fixed lens and its still in demand (Fuji X 100 series and its later incarnations).

I don't think "new photographers" are at a disadvantage. They may lack our sheer years of shooting experience - experience that certainly counts for something - but a lot of what I learned in the days of film is functionally useless today. I can't take my knowledge of darkroom chemistry and apply it to Photoshop. Our creative goals may not change, but the tools have radically changed. And new tools bring new creative possibilities.

Does the need to think change? No. One needs to be mindful to compose. If one pre-visualizes a result that's not being delivered by auto-focus or auto-exposure, one needs to go manual (and know how). Film experience may be beneficial when going manual, but auto-exposure and auto-focus pre-date digital by decades; plenty of film photographers did not start with (or use) fully-manual or semi-automatic cameras.

And unlike those of us who had to adapt our knowledge to a new technology, a newcomer simply has to immerse him/herself as passionately to this technology as we did when we were new to film. Those who made the transition from analog to digital media had a greater challenge than those who either spent their entire career in analog, or started with digital.

For me, a key takeaway of electronic is that still and motion can be delivered by a single tool. I often forget that. I hold a camera that has a stills form factor and I tend to think almost entirely in terms of shooting stills. There are times that my subject matter would be better conveyed by video (or a combination of stills and video), yet I persist in shooting stills. With today's tools, the decision to shoot video or still should come as fluidly as the choice of depth of focus or shutter speed.

As to the success of the Fuji X line? It has a control interface and configuration that appeals to photographers of a certain age or inclination. Scratch that surface, and they're very much through-the-lens digitals. They don't have a key shortcoming of true rangefinders, where the mechanics of providing framing and parallax compensation for zooms or interchangeable lenses came at a substantial cost and complexity. The models that have fixed lenses have the same size, weight, and cost advantage of any fixed lens camera, since they don't need an interchangeable lens mount - to a large degree, they're yesterday's point-and-shoots with larger sensors and better lenses.
 
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