MP 1,1-5,1 What machine do you expect to be using in 2025?

[TECK]

Apple is currently dropping support much faster than expected.

I'm hoping they will support an average 10K machine like 7,1 for a reasonable time. I mean, AVX forces us to drop our old 5,1 Mac Pros for new hardware, within two years. That's 14 years of use for a 2010 Mac Pro, which is incredible. I agree with your logic, I just think out loud how I would react if my 10K 7,1 will be obsolete in 2025, if I would own one.

On the other hand, Apple can use the same approach for their ARM processors, for example they can decide to stop releasing updates for M1 in 2025 also, because the exponential evolution of their chips. I think is a clever way to force users upgrade their hardware more often. Lower hardware prices, more frequent upgrades.

 

[avro707]

There will be angry users if they drop support too quickly for the 7,1. Possibly jumping to PC workstations.

My Applecare goes in mid 2025 with this 7,1.

If a PC vendor came up with a workstation as well designed internally as the MP7,1 then it would be a simple switch if you weren’t tied to MacOS for certain software.

 

[deconstruct60]

I’m using my 5,1 for 10 years, thanks to OpenCore. I believe we can achieve similar results with a 7,1.

That is possible without support. You can sit and squat on a stalled out OS/apps configurations as long as you want to, but not likely to be tracking much, if any, performance improvements after about 5=6 years.

The "cheat" with OpenCore is was picking up code for newer Intel Macs that Apple had removed from the certified configurations. At this point, there aren't going to be any new Intel Macs to plifer for new Intel/AMD drivers or updates. The only macOS stream you are likely going to be on after 2022 is the Apple directly supported macOS Intel stream. That is it. That is totally unlike the last 10 years.

There is a decent chance the 3rd party driver updates for new GPUs is dead. OpenCore isn't going to magically uncorked that part of the system performance equation. [ Some folks think Apple will do one last gasp on AMD 7000. I think that is hoping; shouldn't bet the farm on that. ] Similar with new USB controllers and etc that might have come with new Intel Macs. That will dry up also.


OpenCore is not going to put a macOS on M-series only binary on your 7,1. It can't "cheat" Apple there.

At best, If Apple drops the 7,1 in 2023 there will be a 5 year wind down for macOS on Intel versions until 2028. If it somehow cancelation slides out to 2024 then if Apple is super generous it might be 2029. Even if Apple sold an 'old as dirt' 2019 model in late 2024 - 2025 at that point it probably already on the countdown clock.

I think Apple will start the 5 year countdown clock on macOS Intel at end of 2022. ( when the iMac 27" (done with Studio) and likely last Intel Mini disappear that is it. The Mac Pro doesn't have enough volume to move macOS Intel forward by itself. )

When Apple drops macOS on Intel folks think that there are some two more years of security upgrades coming. Probably not. Security fixes backported from version n to versions n-1 and n-2 don't happen if don't do the version n in the first place.

Some folks think the trailing n-1, n-2 updates will subtract 2 from the 5. Apple will scrooge McDuck the support and just coast the last two years spending even less. I'm not so sure they can do that if going to "blow up" 3rd party GPU and kill off kernel extensions with this transitions.

"But PPC -> Intel".... was a very different era.
1. Apple had not only transition Intel for the macOS kernel but also ARM. ( iPhone didn't 'have to be Mach kernel" . There was a linux option they didn't take). So Apple has additional expenses of 3 ports. Here, they have the same two they have had for years. There is no real uptick in expenses.

2. Apple trimmed the kernel and ecosystem before the transition. APFS merged the two file systems from iOS and MacOS. Apple started kext termination before hand ( so Intel and Arm versions on the same paths. DriverKit driver work on iPad Pros now. That is actually driving down costs. )

3. Apple takes the money to upgrade macOS upfront. ( that old era was still back when buying DVD/USB media to upgrade the OS. ). That has been toast for years now.

4. The average time people keep a classic form factor PC desktop/laptop is longer these days. Even for Apple. ( At one show Apple bragged about how slow Windows PC users update on average ( it think Macs are probably past that now in the aggregate. ). These days more folks plow lots more budget into phones , watches , and etc. also.

If Apple margins on Macs shrinks a lot ( or have major problems elsewhere in the company), then yeah macOS on Intel is an easy expensive to kill quickly. At current margin levels though, Apple can afford to wait to have folks migrate over. As long as there is good steady flow of folks converting from macOS Intel to macOS M-series there few good reasons to goose that artificially. They already took the upgrade money. So lack of funds is highly dubious. The expenses are declining as the funds decline. They have done away with "optional" +2 years on vintage/obsolete windows (so trimmed costs there to). So far the M-series Macs have had high year-over-year sales (gobs of incentives for software developers to get out new software for the new systems).

Their impatience on foot dragging migrators is likely going to run out on trailing edge driver developers before on macOS on intel as a whole. ( OpenCore isn't really going to help you with that either. Can't make an OS take a driver it actively doesn't want. )

 

[deconstruct60]

I'm hoping they will support an average 10K machine like 7,1 for a reasonable time.

Money paid plays ZERO factor in Apple's support policies. That 'extra' money doesn't buy some kind of 'future proof' policy at Apple.

"... Products are considered vintage when Apple stopped distributing them for sale more than 5 and less than 7 years ago. ..."

Obtaining service for your Apple product after an expired warranty - Apple Support

Learn about your options for getting service and parts for Apple devices that are past their warranty period.

support.apple.com

It is all based upon when Apple stops selling the product. There was a quirk where the more expense the product the longer Apple went between device upgrades. But even that didn't help the MacPro 2013 which went , way ,way ,way past the normal upgrade cycle. Too far past Apple's rules on macOS updates is flexible enough to just axe it. The MP 2013has no new macOS coverage (edit. Technically not on the Vintage/Obsolete yet. It is out of the norm of synching up hardware/software coverage) . Doesn't matter if paid $15K on Oct 2019 for a new one.

If Apple sold the new Mac Pro side by side with the 7,1 for a year or so it is probably not moving the window forward. The 2019 is already 'stale'. And it is on a 'dead' (no new systems) platform. Maybe an extra 'grace transition' year but something to give you 10 years? No.

Can also tell has Apple dropped the old 2009-2012 models.
The drooped 2009 .
Then dropped the 2010 ( and kept the 2012 on a quick even though same model number. largely because off on the 2013 tangent for so long).
Then dropped the 2012.

using OpenCore and firmware hacks could spoof a 2009 into a 2012 , but that isn't going to 'fly' here that the whole macOS Intel platform is going to disappear. Completely surrounding that relatively artificial extension for the 2012 was 10's of millions of other Intel Macs being sold. Once those other 10's of millions of other Intel Macs are gone the 7,1 is like Wile.E.Coyote in a Road Runner cartoon... off a cliff.

 

[TECK]

At best, If Apple drops the 7,1 in 2023 there will be a 5 year wind down for macOS on Intel versions until 2028.

This post ^^ and:

If Apple sold the new Mac Pro side by side with the 7,1 for a year or so it is probably not moving the window forward. The 2019 is already 'stale'.

This post ^^ are both educational and align with what @tsialex mentioned earlier, thank you for taking the time to explain it in detail for someone with less knowledge like myself. I now have a clear understanding what direction to take related to my next Mac Pro purchase next year.

 

[mattspace]

So, you are really expecting that Apple will still send macOS releases for Intel processors at least to 2027? I really think that you have to lower your expectations, by a lot.

People betted against me that MacPro6,1 would be fully supported up to 2025 and I always warned that didn't made any sense. I won't expect any new macOS releases for Intel processor later than 2025, five years since the last Intel Mac (2020 27" iMac) was released and I'm being optimist here. Since Apple Silicon, Apple is currently dropping support much faster than expected.

A 2019 Mac Pro bought today, will still be covered by statutory warranties here, with no Applecare, until at least 2026 (Macbook Pros have 4 year statutory warranties), and probably longer - it costs as much as a car, it is enforced to have similar length warranties.

So OS support could be an issue with regards to that.

 

[tsialex]

A 2019 Mac Pro bought today, will still be covered by statutory warranties here, with no Applecare, until at least 2026 (Macbook Pros have 4 year statutory warranties), and probably longer - it costs as much as a car, it is enforced to have similar length warranties.

So OS support could be an issue with regards to that.

That's for warranty, specifically parts and technical assistance, not for software support (as in future new releases).

Let me be crystal clear here, since Lion release, Apple support schedule for macOS is the release year plus maintenance/security updates for the next two years. For example, even if Apple will drop 2019 Mac Pro from macOS 14 in September/October 2023, macOS 13 will continue to be supported with maintenance and security updates until September/October 2025.

It's not a rule, but it's common for a Mac to still have 3 years of support for new macOS releases support plus the two years of maintenance after sales are stopped, following the 5 years of parts availability and technical support, but there are cases where Apple dropped the support of new macOS releases earlier.

 

[Kimmo]

If you're a dog who doesn't like the taste of the limited support / planned obsolescence MacOS dog food, it might be worth 45 seconds of your time to drop Mr.Cook a note at his public email at tcook@apple.com.

Seriously, if enough customers express their concern they will take note.

If we all just shrug and eat the dog food, well ...

 

[Boil]

Mac Pro in 2025, 3nm M3-based SoCs with hardware ray tracing...

 

[Boil]

Imagine, if you will...

ASi Mac Pro, but it's a MPX blade in a chassis with six PCIe slots (insert your favorite gen/spec/whatever)...

Maybe more, maybe less on the PCIe slots, who knows...? Maybe Small (3 slots), Medium (5 slots), and Large (8 slots) chassis variants...?

Apple allows OWC to sell SSD modules so the end user can save on the Apple Tax...

Apple sells a PCIe card that takes up to eight of the Apple (or OWC) SSD modules for a RAID...

Apple sells PCIe GPGPU cards for add-in rendering horsepower...

Apple sells a rackmount chassis that takes MPX ASi blades for assorted render/server duties...

So as you upgrade an ASi Mac Pro with a new blade, you put the old blade into the rackmount chassis and grow your render/server farm...!

Not 100% modular (CPU/display GPU & RAM bound to the blade), but SSDs, GPGPUs, & third-party A/V I/O etc. add-in cards gives a good bit of flexibility...?

Unfortunately, one must still pay the Apple Tax for RAM... /sadface

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Mac Pro as we know was always financed by the volume of workstations and servers sold by Intel, Apple always iterated and tweaked on the reference designs provided and already payed for by Intel selling tens of millions of server CPUs. Now Apple have to finance (as in ROI) everything itself.

Apple investment with Apple Silicon to this day is completely focused on that Apple can sell high volume, as in millions of units - like iOS devices, MacBook Airs, MacBook Pros and some devices that have less volume but are really needed to make a complete line of products and not to difficult to implement with the current chip designs, like the 24" iMac, Mac mini (exactly the same M1 CPU of Air/13" MBP) and Mac Studio (same or doubling the M1 Max CPU design of 14" and 16" MBPs). Apple don't even have a 27" iMac substitute to this day, almost two years down the road of Apple Silicon.

If you are taking clues from the current silicon designs and how Apple is implementing the support software, you can easily see for yourself that RAM and CPU upgrades are not even possible with the M1 and M2 architecture, unless is something along the lines of a much slower level 2 RAM buffer or or a full CPU on a card/module that is removable, that you will have replace the full card/module when upgrading - something that I really don't think that Apple will do, but it's possible.

Apple will have to change radically the M2 design to reimplement the 2019 Mac Pro with Apple Silicon, which I really doubt it since even if you account the number of Mac Pro ever sold to this day wouldn't have a return of investment necessary. The most probable is that we will get something like a doubled Mac Studio Ultra on steroids, with new I/O and slots for additional network/audio/storage cards but not upgradeable RAM or CPU.

If there is no upgradeable gpu they shouldn’t bother. Waste of time for pros who will turn to windows/Linux.

I would think that the other reason apple might give us slots that matter (ie ones that allow gpu upgrades) is “eating their own dog food”. There are enough pro users within apple that like the 2019 machine and want to continue using apple hardware.

Of course your conjecture is a good one. Time will tell.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

There is large mythos around paying more for a Mac Pro gets you longer software upgrades because of the hardware. That is largely not true.

said to a forum where a huge contingent of users are on 2009/2010 camp macs, still capable of running the current OS (via open core), and by using slots, out performing the latest Mac studio machine (wrt to most graphics performance) with an and a 6800xt….

 

[MisterAndrew]

It is odd how the option for 7,1 is only "used." Just list it as "Mac Pro 7,1." It doesn't matter if it's used or not. Of course the minute you turn on the new Mac it is used. So they are all used.

 

[tsialex]

said to a forum where a huge contingent of users are on 2009/2010 camp macs, still capable of running the current OS (via open core), and by using slots, out performing the latest Mac studio machine with an and a 6800xt….

Your argument is becoming tiresome, it's not the slot that makes a Mac to support 3rd party GPUs, but drivers. There are no drivers for 3rd party GPUs with macOS when running on AppleSilicon. Apple can release a 10-slot MacPro8,1 and without 3rd party GPU drivers, GPUs won't gonna work.

Btw, I'm still in love with my MacPro5,1, but saying that a MacPro5,1 + 6800XT is faster than a Mac Studio only proves that this configuration can run some specifics benchmarks faster. Benchmarks don't make me work faster or pay my bills and the design limitations of MacPro5,1 are starting to cause issues with my workflow, even with all hardware and software workarounds.

Lot's of people were forced to migrate to newer Macs in the last two or three years since apps started to require AVX/AVX2 and the new IvyBridge/Haswell instructions. Ventura is the end of MacPro5,1 running current macOS releases as we know it and to keep a MacPro5,1 running it will be a patchwork that most MacPro owners won't want to address. Also, since AVX2 is required by macOS now, lot's of apps are gonna require it too, that will force a lot of holdouts to migrate in 2023 already, loving MacPro5,1 or not.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Your argument is becoming tiresome, it's not the slot that makes a Mac to support 3rd party GPUs, but drivers. There are no drivers for 3rd party GPUs with macOS when running on AppleSilicon. Apple can release a 10-slot MacPro8,1 and without 3rd party GPU drivers, GPUs won't gonna work.

Btw, I'm still in love with my MacPro5,1, but saying that a MacPro5,1 + 6800XT is faster than a Mac Studio only proves that this configuration can run some specifics benchmarks faster. Benchmarks don't make me work faster or pay my bills and the design limitations of MacPro5,1 are starting to cause issues with my workflow, even with all hardware and software workarounds.

Lot's of people were forced to migrate to newer Macs in the last two or three years since apps started to require AVX/AVX2 and the new IvyBridge/Haswell instructions. Ventura is the end of MacPro5,1 running current macOS releases as we know it and to keep a MacPro5,1 running it will be a patchwork that most MacPro owners won't want to address. Also, since AVX2 is required by macOS now, lot's of apps are gonna require it too, that will force a lot of holdouts to migrate in 2023 already, loving MacPro5,1 or not.

You can be as tired as you want. Considering just how responsible you are for adding longevity to these machines yourself, it seems reasonable.

Of course drivers are required, and the pre requisite for the drivers is the slot and the will to support it. Also a pre requisite is that we maintain a correct nitrogen/oxygen blend of atmosphere on earth to maintain human life but I’m not going to bother to mention every other set of requirements.

It’s not just some benchmarks. The 5,1 with a 6800 runs video games at faster framerates. It also runs some high end pro 3D apps faster. Real apps that people may enjoy. For others, it may not help at all. It depends on people’s workflow. Imo if anyone is guilty of the misrepresentative benchmarks it’s apple cherry picking graphic benchmarks for the studio instead of more holistic ones (like metal scores). So we agree that can be an issue, but differ on where the fake benchmark game falls.

However, I do agree with you that getting things done with a 5,1 is getting more and more difficult. Part of that is with apple not supporting a platform that CLEARLY has no problems running the current OS as long as you have a modern graphics card and Wi-Fi adapter. It’s a case where it’s tough to see it as anything other than early forced obsolescence. That said, I think spirit of your point stands. The 5,1 is now so much of a chore to maintain with the next OS, and the 5,1’s components are so long in the tooth, it’s a game of diminishing returns in that it’s starting to get to the point where for many, it’s not worth the bother.

All the above, while may be true, is absolutely irrelevant, tired though you may be, to the point that the slot architecture (yes along with drivers and the will to support it) has meant amazing longevity for the 5,1, which was the original point, and tirelessly undeniable.

 

[Stex]

You can be as tired as you want. Considering just how responsible you are for adding longevity to these machines yourself, it seems reasonable.

seems reasonable you say? indeed, almost all cMP owners around here own the longevity of their machines to Mr. @tsialex. so yes indeed, on this (and only this) you are correct @ZombiePhysicist.

but I’m not going to bother to mention every other set of requirements.

Very convenient omissions, I would say.

It’s not just some benchmarks. The 5,1 with a 6800 runs video games at faster framerates. It also runs some high end pro 3D apps faster. Real apps that people may enjoy. For others, it may not help at all. It depends on people’s workflow. Imo if anyone is guilty of the misrepresentative benchmarks it’s apple cherry picking graphic benchmarks for the studio instead of more holistic ones (like metal scores). So we agree that can be an issue, but differ on where the fake benchmark game falls.

Look, you say faster framerates... not sure, faster than what??? So generic your comment. Yes indeed, it's amazing we can use our 10+ years cMPs with latest gen AMD GPUs thanks to the great work of very smart people who are active in these forums. But there's no denying that it's not optimal for gaming or CG/game design workflows and having a current system with latest gen hardware is just better period. cMPs performs fine for gaming on Win 10/11 and so does the 7,1 -- but please don't equal either one those to PCs with the latest gen hardware ok? For the record, I have gamed on my cMP running Win 11 and also own a PC with latest gen hardware, so I have a bit of perspective on running AAA games on both systems as well as Blender, Unreal Engine and more. Not sure what you are trying to get to here with your comments, all I can say is --- sure, it is just amazing to get such an old system (cMPs) to run recent software, latest macOS and Win, AND latest gen GPUs. But let's not make it more than what it is -- a hack afterall with very little life left. No, not at all, I am not happy writing this, as I LOVE my cMP --- but it has been very clear to me for quite some time that the end is near. Still, my cMP is my daily driver, blame it on nostalgia or LOVE or both.

All the above, while may be true, is absolutely irrelevant, tired though you may be, to the point that the slot architecture (yes along with drivers and the will to support it) has meant amazing longevity for the 5,1, which was the original point, and tirelessly undeniable.

Irrelevant? Really? Not sure why you can't see or simply accept what's been going on for far too long now --- the fact that Apple does not care about Pro users. Period. End of story. Pros are an afterthought for Apple. There's no real money in it for them, even if they charge us big $$$ for the hardware whenever they decide or feel to release it. What Alex mentions about drivers is crucial, actually essential -- how can you NOT agree that having regularly updated GPU drivers is the top of our priorities? Have you forgotten this thread about how 7,1 PRO users were complaining for many MONTHS about a slowdown of their GPU performance due to a macOS update? What a coincidence that the slowdown happended right at the time of the Mac Studio release -- all 7,1s were slowed down apparently... very strange. It's all there in the thread. And I don't own a 7,1 -- but I participated in the thread and encouraged every 7,1 owner there to call (and call and call again) Apple Support and make a big deal out of the issue -- a very terrible issue! How is it possible that customers who pay big money for hardware (and depend on it to make money themselves) can't get optimal performance because of... who knows what was the rationale and/or intention at Apple HQ?

This is the every day reality for PRO Apple users -- ZERO sense of what Apple does for you or wants to do for you and hopes for you in the future. Period. No wonder why there are so many threads here guessing what's coming for Apple Pro users and such. It's nonsense! Please! How can you still trust Apple? This is just unacceptable, period. I lost hope on Apple caring about Pro users a long ago! That's why I never bought a 6,1 nor a 7,1 and now actually own a PC workstation! Oh FYI -- I have been using Apple hardware since the 1990s! But I gave up on them on the Pro side.

Don't get me wrong @ZombiePhysicist --- I love your ethos and efforts to get an 8k TV going with your 7,1 even if Apple did not make it easy for you (haha! I really loved that thread honestly!) But really, you gotta face the reality of what's happening, Apple is just a different kind of Apple -- a "genetically altered" Apple if you will, maybe tasty for some, yes, but very very different than the "natural" Apple it used to be back then, when it all started and such. Time to let go.

 

[Macsonic]

Will continue using my 5,1 classic Mac Pro and plan on saving up for the 7,1 2019 Mac Pro, even though Apple may no longer support the 2019 Mac Pro in the near future. I also have my own M1 iMac which I use alternatively and onsite, using a client's Mac Studio whenever he has a project assignment I need to work on.

Monitoring the global economic climate and possible recessions in the midst of the conflict in Europe and Asia, I’m focusing more on sharpening my skillsets and software skills. Generally, the companies I’ve worked with put more weight on the pro skillset than the type of computer hardware one uses. For clarity, not making a general conclusion that the route to go is to go for unsupported Macs and focus on improving one’s professional skills. Everyone’s needs, preferred work setup and situation varies.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

seems reasonable you say? indeed, almost all cMP owners around here own the longevity of their machines to Mr. @tsialex. so yes indeed, on this (and only this) you are correct @ZombiePhysicist.




Very convenient omissions, I would say.




Look, you say faster framerates... not sure, faster than what??? So generic your comment. Yes indeed, it's amazing we can use our 10+ years cMPs with latest gen AMD GPUs thanks to the great work of very smart people who are active in these forums. But there's no denying that it's not optimal for gaming or CG/game design workflows and having a current system with latest gen hardware is just better period. cMPs performs fine for gaming on Win 10/11 and so does the 7,1 -- but please don't equal either one those to PCs with the latest gen hardware ok? For the record, I have gamed on my cMP running Win 11 and also own a PC with latest gen hardware, so I have a bit of perspective on running AAA games on both systems as well as Blender, Unreal Engine and more. Not sure what you are trying to get to here with your comments, all I can say is --- sure, it is just amazing to get such an old system (cMPs) to run recent software, latest macOS and Win, AND latest gen GPUs. But let's not make it more than what it is -- a hack afterall with very little life left. No, not at all, I am not happy writing this, as I LOVE my cMP --- but it has been very clear to me for quite some time that the end is near. Still, my cMP is my daily driver, blame it on nostalgia or LOVE or both.



Irrelevant? Really? Not sure why you can't see or simply accept what's been going on for far too long now --- the fact that Apple does not care about Pro users. Period. End of story. Pros are an afterthought for Apple. There's no real money in it for them, even if they charge us big $$$ for the hardware whenever they decide or feel to release it. What Alex mentions about drivers is crucial, actually essential -- how can you NOT agree that having regularly updated GPU drivers is the top of our priorities? Have you forgotten this thread about how 7,1 PRO users were complaining for many MONTHS about a slowdown of their GPU performance due to a macOS update? What a coincidence that the slowdown happended right at the time of the Mac Studio release -- all 7,1s were slowed down apparently... very strange. It's all there in the thread. And I don't own a 7,1 -- but I participated in the thread and encouraged every 7,1 owner there to call (and call and call again) Apple Support and make a big deal out of the issue -- a very terrible issue! How is it possible that customers who pay big money for hardware (and depend on it to make money themselves) can't get optimal performance because of... who knows what was the rationale and/or intention at Apple HQ?

This is the every day reality for PRO Apple users -- ZERO sense of what Apple does for you or wants to do for you and hopes for you in the future. Period. No wonder why there are so many threads here guessing what's coming for Apple Pro users and such. It's nonsense! Please! How can you still trust Apple? This is just unacceptable, period. I lost hope on Apple caring about Pro users a long ago! That's why I never bought a 6,1 nor a 7,1 and now actually own a PC workstation! Oh FYI -- I have been using Apple hardware since the 1990s! But I gave up on them on the Pro side.

Don't get me wrong @ZombiePhysicist --- I love your ethos and efforts to get an 8k TV going with your 7,1 even if Apple did not make it easy for you (haha! I really loved that thread honestly!) But really, you gotta face the reality of what's happening, Apple is just a different kind of Apple -- a "genetically altered" Apple if you will, maybe tasty for some, yes, but very very different than the "natural" Apple it used to be back then, when it all started and such. Time to let go.

I gave one example, correct nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere. Balls in your court. Conveniently.

Faster than the maxed out Mac Studio at most graphics tasks (important ones like Metal performance too). Someone in the forum posted their video of the 5,1 upgraded with the 6800, lots of interesting benchmarks. There are several such threads you can search for, but here are a couple of references:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/success-rx-6800xt-in-cmp-4-1-5-1.2344094/post-31081448

Yes, it's irrelevant to the topic/argument I was furthering. I'm not sure what topic you've moved on to, I'm defending the point that slots have given great longevity to Macs, and the 4,1 and 5,1 Macs are prime evidence, contrary to the assertions of those in this thread, namely this one:

deconstruct60 said: "There is large mythos around paying more for a Mac Pro gets you longer software upgrades because of the hardware. That is largely not true."

That is clearly wrong (and in fact the "largely" is a hint to knowing so from the get go) as Apple itself kept the 5,1 going for a very long time with support, and it has been furthered by the efforts of others here to, to an almost ridiculous extent. That it may have gone "on for far too long now" is in fact an admission of that very assertion that was being denied. Rest of your arguments are rirrelevant to that issue.

The other issues you and others bring up (eg apple not caring about pros) are also interesting and worth discussing, and I'm happy to get into that if that's what you'd like (and frankly I probably agree with most of them). We can debate if apple doesn't make it easy because it ignores the platform for huge stretches of time, and if it's worth the effort, and many other things.

However, IMO, everyone has begrudgingly conceded the point I was arguing. Slots (even despite apple largely not caring about pros) increase the longevity of a machine/platform, both by direct support from apple, and by efforts of those in these very forums.

These very forums are largely a living testament to that reality.

 

[tsialex]

Slots (even despite apple largely not caring about them) increase the longevity of a machine/platform, both by direct support from apple, and by efforts of those in these very forums.

These very forums are largely a living testament to that reality.

This ship started sailing around 2017 and iMac Pro with the first T2 Security processor or better yet the day Apple removed Firmware Programming Mode around 2011 and blocked any write access to the EFI and execution of unsigned code post-ThunderStrike around 2014ish. You can't even modify MacPro6,1 BootROM like it was easily possible with the previous generation.

The romantic idea of slots and community bringing improvements finally shipwrecked the day Apple moved from Intel. Trying to apply what was possible to do with older Macs pre-T2 to a completely new ISA that actively validates and blocks any modifications whatsoever is not doable. Btw, it's not just Apple that is doing this, Windows is doing practically the same with some notable differences of implementation and Microsoft started to do this some years earlier than Apple. Even to run Linux on AppleSilicon, you still need to boot/load the signed Apple firmware and prepare the house to the guest, before starting the Linux kernel.

To run 3rd party GPUs on Apple Silicon Apple have to create drivers and the infrastructure for it that currently doesn't exist with macOS for AppleSilicon. If Apple wanted 3rd party GPUs with Apple Silicon Macs, eGPUs worked from day one since, for all effects, Thunderbolt is just another variant of a PCIe connection/slot. It's clearly now that Apple have other ideas.

I bet that Apple will release a Mac Pro with slots, but for audio, networking and storage. No 3rd party GPUs.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

This ship of yours started sailing around 2017 and iMac Pro with the first T2 Security processor.

Your romantic idea of slots and community bringing improvements shipwrecked the day Apple moved from Intel. You are trying to apply what was possible with older Macs pre-T2 to a completely new ISA that actively validates and blocks any modifications whatsoever. Btw, it's not just Apple that is doing this, Windows is doing practically the same with some notable differences of implementation and Microsoft started to do this some years earlier than Apple. Even to run Linux on AppleSilicon, you still need to boot/load the signed Apple firmware before starting the Linux kernel.

To run 3rd party GPUs on Apple Silicon Apple have to create drivers and the infrastructure for it that currently doesn't exist with macOS for AppleSilicon. If Apple wanted 3rd party GPUs with Apple Silicon Macs, eGPUs worked from day one since, for all effects, Thunderbolt is just another variant of a PCIe slot. It's clearly now that Apple have other ideas than you.

I bet that Apple will release a Mac Pro with slots, but for audio, networking and storage.

You may well be right. Doesnt mean you should just shrug your shoulders and say "ok I'll take it." Arguably the T1 also started that slippery slope. Yet enough people bitched and said they were leaving the platform to convince/force apple to change direction and make the 2019 Mac Pro. We have that precedent. it's doable.

And so what that apple has to make drivers. You guys talk about making drivers like they are putting a fusion reactor in there. They've made drivers before. They probably are largely pre-made by the graphic cards makers, or get a lot of help therefrom. They had PC graphics cards working on PPC machines too, so nothing inherently impossible. It just takes some will, and some expense to get them made. It is not some insurmantuable mountain top of tech complexity. In fact, it's a very banal thing to have drivers made.

All that said, you may be right. They may give so little a s*** that they just wont bother, or they give so much a s*** that they won't do it out of strategic direction/spite.

But regardless, if you give up before the fight starts, then that's somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy. Again, there was a forced turn around with the 2019 Mac Pro in direction because enough people complained and fought. That said, apple may ignore the market because they just dont care anymore about this segment of the market, no matter how much people complain.

But I can predict this. If you don't fight, and everyone up signs up for defeat, it has a far greater chance of going the way you predict. That would be a shame, regardless of if you're right about the odds of which way it would go. I'd rather go down swinging, and not with a whimper. My alternatives turn grim with having to move to windows/linux, so the fight is worth having. As always, YMMV.

Look, if anyone has a right to say 'g-damn it I'm tired" it's you. Youve near single handedly helped extend these machines nearing a decade. But let me ask you this. If apple announced that the new machine had slots, and it did support at least say AMD/3rd party graphics cards, would you be happier or sadder for that? If you'd be happier for that, and would want that, and many others would want that, what's so wrong and bad about expressing a feature/capability people want? Why has "dreaming" about cool things we want become something depreciated? Why should we not even bother communicating that?

I think if you do not communicate that to apple, the odds of getting dreamed of features goes down a fair bit. So what does it hurt? In the case of the 2019 Mac Pro, it seemed to help.

 

[DouglasCarroll]

I don’t care what anyone thinks, I love my mid 2013 Mac Pro and will use it until it dies.

 

[TECK]

I don’t care what anyone thinks, I love my mid 2013 Mac Pro and will use it until it dies.

Until your Mac gets hacked due to some vulnerability not addressed on old software. 😊

 

[Dayo]

the 4,1 and 5,1 Macs are prime evidence

People always forget about the runt of the litter, the MacPro3,1.

Yet, the plucky little fella keeps keeping up with its popular siblings by quietly happily running whatever Mac OS version they can run. Looks like the run will fiinally end for it at the same point at the end of the day ... incredible!

I suppose this is precisely what Apple hates but it needs to know that it forced this. I was in the market for an upgrade back in 2013 but no matter how many times I went back to look at the piece of plastic on offer, desperately trying to believe it was indeed innovation, I just could not shake the voice whispering quietly, repeatedly, in my ear ... "This is no Mac Pro".

I expect the same voice will return with whatever Apple is likely to put on offer next.

 

[DouglasCarroll]

Until your Mac gets hacked due to some vulnerability not addressed on old software. 😊

Not everyone uses every computer they own online for critical work you know...sometimes they just enjoy them offline...I know..."radical thought"...

🙄

 

[mikas]

My answer for now. Maybe 2025 too, who knows.

While I kind of like some PCs, I still am not happy with windows. And especially not happy with all the hoops in that land one needs to tackle to operate one - softwarewise, and hardwarewise. But I have tackled a lot of those for now. Some more to come I'm sure.

edit: Specs, used equipment:
HP Z4 G4 Xeon W-2123 4-core/48GB/512GB NVMe + 2x1TB HDD/1000W PSU (375€)
- 2x NVMe slots on MoBo, one free
- 4x 8-pin PCIe power connectors
RX 6800XT 16GB (900€)

planned upgrades:
Kingston KC2500 2TB NVMe (220€)
W-2155 10-core and W-2175 14 core ordered from eBay (295€ and 240€)
- will choose either one, one for spare or maybe for another Z4
256GB DDR4 2133MHz waiting to be installed in (8x32GB)
- bought the RAM gradually for Z440, can't remember the price; lets say ~1000€ checked it, 725€ total.