What makes a MBP better than the E1505?

[playaj82]

I pretty much agree with what you've said, except for the car analogy... the difference is that for the brand name cars you've mentioned, well, those cars are all actually better engineered than your garden variety Hondas or Toyotas.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the car analogy.

I'm not comparing a Toyota to a BMW, just like I'm not comparing a Celeron to a core Duo.

I'm talking about why people pay for the markup on these vehicles.

Everyone knows that people who buy a BMW are paying a higher premium over total Cost to Produce than a person who buys a Hyundai.

(Hypothetical)
BMW - Markup 20%
Hyundai - Markup 5%

The quality difference is significant, but at the same time, why should BMW have a 15% higher markup.

Do people think the brand name is worth more? Did they get a special service package? What extra value is assigned?

Compare this with computers
I can buy a bottom of the barrel dell computer where they have extremely tight profit margins and use lower quality components. I'm getting what I pay for if it doesn't work out.

Or....

I can choose between a high end Dell and a Mac Book Pro. Apple probably has a higher markup even though the Dell has the same components, but Apple has something else that appeals to consumers greater than just the cost to produce.

I'm not trying to put forth the "Mac better than Windows" but each consumer has their own reason. Maybe an Apple store is close to someone's home, maybe they don't want viruses, maybe they want Apple support, maybe they want OS X, maybe......infinite reasons.

The point is that people pay the $100 or $200 difference in price for the Apple computer over the Dell with the same components for any number of reasons. It isn't because they are stupid or getting fleeced by buying a more expensive product.

The best car analogy I can come up with here is buying a Toyota Avalon or a Lexis ES330. Same parent company, practically same parts, same engine, both reliable and great cars. This begs the question as to why someone would buy the Lexis over the Toyota when the Toyota is cheaper.

This is the same reason why someone buys an Apple over a Dell/IBM/Gateway or any other manufacturer of computers who might sell something with similar innards for a little less money.

 

[bbrosemer]

I pretty much agree with what you've said, except for the car analogy... the difference is that for the brand name cars you've mentioned, well, those cars are all actually better engineered than your garden variety Hondas or Toyotas.

Hell no id much rather crash in a Honda, Honda's are a great car, O wait maybe an Acura is somehow better becasue you pay 10,000 more well its not or a Lexus they are the same damn cars price means nothing with cars its all a scam, cars cannot be compared to computers, I could get in a Hynduai crash and die I get into a BMW the same thing could happen, its such a stupid comparsion to begin with, just leave it at Honda's are good cars thats all I have to say, Id take a free honda over a free BMW any day, and well see which last 200,000 miles from now.

 

[poppe]

Hell no id much rather crash in a Honda, Honda's are a great car, O wait maybe an Acura is somehow better becasue you pay 10,000 more well its not or a Lexus they are the same damn cars price means nothing with cars its all a scam, cars cannot be compared to computers, I could get in a Hynduai crash and die I get into a BMW the same thing could happen, its such a stupid comparsion to begin with, just leave it at Honda's are good cars thats all I have to say, Id take a free honda over a free BMW any day, and well see which last 200,000 miles from now.

Honda's are great cars but they are made out of like pure aluminum (not really). I was once driving behind a Honda Prelude. Infront of the prelude was Hyundai Tiburon. We were coming to a traffic light going around mid 30's when the Tiburon slammed on its breaks. The the prelude smashed in to the back of the Tiburon ( I stopped in time).

Results of crash: Tiburon's muffler fell of and had a small to medium dent in bumbper. Prelude's engine was totaled.

Oh and If you look there are many BMW's that are easily in the 200,000 mile range, just as honda. If BMW flooded the market more perhaps we could see a better comparison... oh and those BMW's are still running strong. Many Honda's make it to 200,000 some running amazing, but alot having cosmetics falling off to crap (engine wise still decent yes).

 

[QCassidy352]

The best car analogy I can come up with here is buying a Toyota Avalon or a Lexis ES330. Same parent company, practically same parts, same engine, both reliable and great cars. This begs the question as to why someone would buy the Lexis over the Toyota when the Toyota is cheaper.

There's a much more fundamental difference between a mac and a quality Dell than between the Lexis - only the mac can run OS X. There's no good analogy for this in cars, but maybe transmission type (standard v. automatic) is close.

The transmission type, like the OS, is fundamental. You might not think about it constantly, but it underlies everything you do. If you don't like the kind you have, it's going to be a constant frustration every day, on every task. Some people will drive either a standard or an automatic, and would not pay a substantial premium for one over the other. But if you really love one and dislike the other, it seems like almost any premium would be worth it. After all, if you're stuck with a standard and you really just don't like it no matter how much you use it, it's going to be a problem for the entire life of the car.

just leave it at Honda's are good cars thats all I have to say, Id take a free honda over a free BMW any day, and well see which last 200,000 miles from now.

Bad choice of cars to compare. Hondas and BMWs both consistently rate among the very best for reliability and longevity. In fact, I'd consider a BMW the Honda of luxury cars - fairly common, not that exciting, but extremely well built. My guess is that both would be running quite well after 200,000 miles.

 

[poppe]

There's a much more fundamental difference between a mac and a quality Dell than between the Lexis - only the mac can run OS X. There's no good analogy for this in cars, but maybe transmission type (standard v. automatic) is close.

The transmission type, like the OS, is fundamental. You might not think about it constantly, but it underlies everything you do. If you don't like the kind you have, it's going to be a constant frustration every day, on every task. Some people will drive either a standard or an automatic, and would not pay a substantial premium for one over the other. But if you really love one and dislike the other, it seems like almost any premium would be worth it. After all, if you're stuck with a standard and you really just don't like it no matter how much you use it, it's going to be a problem for the entire life of the car.

Hey I like that.

Stupid luxury cars all stupid automatics... Rather have a manual..

 

[bbrosemer]

There's a much more fundamental difference between a mac and a quality Dell than between the Lexis - only the mac can run OS X. There's no good analogy for this in cars, but maybe transmission type (standard v. automatic) is close.

The transmission type, like the OS, is fundamental. You might not think about it constantly, but it underlies everything you do. If you don't like the kind you have, it's going to be a constant frustration every day, on every task. Some people will drive either a standard or an automatic, and would not pay a substantial premium for one over the other. But if you really love one and dislike the other, it seems like almost any premium would be worth it. After all, if you're stuck with a standard and you really just don't like it no matter how much you use it, it's going to be a problem for the entire life of the car.



Bad choice of cars to compare. Hondas and BMWs both consistently rate among the very best for reliability and longevity. In fact, I'd consider a BMW the Honda of luxury cars - fairly common, not that exciting, but extremely well built. My guess is that both would be running quite well after 200,000 miles.

I didnt do the comparing someone else tried to so I got mad no honda trashing...

 

[vv-tim]

are you saying that you can order a new screen from dell for your laptop that will run at 1920x1200?

Yes, that's what I'm saying... as long as your original screen as either 15.4" or 17".

 

[vv-tim]

if you're going to compare a dell notebook with a macbook pro, the *closest* specc'd machine is the m1710.

this whole thread underlies the point that there are no exact same products from the two companies which you can then price compare.

How do you figure that the M1710 is the closest specced machine to a 17" MBP?
It adds no additional features missing from the E1705 that are found on a 17" MBP. The only advantages in a M1710 over the E1705 are mostly cosmetic (except for the Geforce GTX 7900 option, 667mhz ram which can be purchased at newegg, and the 9-cell battery).

So, other than ridiculously overpricing the M1710, what makes it closer to the MBP? I could see you grasping at straws for the M1210 since it has a webcam, but come on...

 

[j26]

A Dell laptop can drive external displays as well. It's all about the GPU. The E1505 gets SXGA+ (1680x1050) if you configure it as such. It only takes custom upgrades (which you can order from Dell) to get the 1920x1200.

And just so you know... your MacBook/MacBook Pro does NOT run at "millions of colors". They use dithering to get 24/32bit color.

I don't have a MacBook or MBP. I just don't like inaccuracies. It makes me question the nature of the posts I'm reading - they're either sloppy in which case they should be discounted, or disingenuous, in which case they should be ignored.

 

[user23]

Originally Posted by vv-tim
A Dell laptop can drive external displays as well. It's all about the GPU. The E1505 gets SXGA+ (1680x1050) if you configure it as such. It only takes custom upgrades (which you can order from Dell) to get the 1920x1200.

And just so you know... your MacBook/MacBook Pro does NOT run at "millions of colors". They use dithering to get 24/32bit color.

cite sources. Nowhere on Apple's site does it say what you are suggesting. I do see the following: "15.4-inch (diagonal) TFT display, support for millions of colors; Optional glossy widescreen display"

Dithering looks like crap. When I look at my MBP display, I see excellent contrast & color representation. When I output design work I've done on an imaging device, lo & behold, it reflects precisely what I've seen on the screen.

 

[vv-tim]

cite sources. Nowhere on Apple's site does it say what you are suggesting. I do see the following: "15.4-inch (diagonal) TFT display, support for millions of colors; Optional glossy widescreen display"

Dithering looks like crap. When I look at my MBP display, I see excellent contrast & color representation. When I output design work I've done on an imaging device, lo & behold, it reflects precisely what I've seen on the screen.

Reboot into Windows. The ATI drivers for Windows have a set dithering filter so it's much more obvious. From the discussions we've had about the issue on several other boards, we believe that the display drivers for Mac OS X change the dithering consistently so that it is less obvious. However, it is still evident that dithering is going on. Look at a solid color background. The (ever so slight in MacOS X) blotchiness is dithering.

Obviously, Apple isn't going to ADVERTISE that they use dithering to get millions of colors. Dell doesn't advertise it either. In fact, on the E1405 with the 1440x900 display it looks absolutely horrendous. The "sparkling" effect on white backgrounds made me get rid of it almost two weeks later.

 

[poppe]

What is dithering

 

[dejo]

And just so you know... your MacBook/MacBook Pro does NOT run at "millions of colors". They use dithering to get 24/32bit color.

You only need 20 bits to support millions of colors. 2^20 = 1,048,576.

 

[dejo]

What is dithering

Digital photography and image processing

 

[generik]

Is it an issue with the integrated LCD panel or with MacOS itself?

What happens if I hook up an external monitor?

 

[generik]

You only need 20 bits to support millions of colors. 2^20 = 1,048,576.

That's "million" not "millions"

 

[dejo]

That's "million" not "millions"

Oops, you're right. My bad.

2^21 then!

 

[poppe]

Digital photography and image processing

Thank you.

So what is better than dithering?

 

[dejo]

Look at a solid color background. The (ever so slight in MacOS X) blotchiness is dithering.

I see no blotchiness on my display. You sure you don't accidentally have your display's color depth set to Thousands?

 

[seany916]

Prelude vs. Tiburon

regarding the crash example above, it is DESIREABLE for the car to mangle up. crush zones absorb the impact of the crash thereby dissipating the energy of the impact. I'll take a car that crunches over one that "is solid" anyday. When the forces reach the passenger well, there is almost always a VERY sturdy cage meant to protect the occupants. Much of the energy of the crash should be absorbed by the crushing of the non-passenger parts of the car. In extreme cases where the impact is significantly high, it does start to matter whether the cage holds. These cases are somewhat a rarity.

 

[poppe]

regarding the crash example above, it is DESIREABLE for the car to mangle up. crush zones absorb the impact of the crash thereby dissipating the energy of the impact. I'll take a car that crunches over one that "is solid" anyday. When the forces reach the passenger well, there is almost always a VERY sturdy cage meant to protect the occupants. Much of the energy of the crash should be absorbed by the crushing of the non-passenger parts of the car. In extreme cases where the impact is significantly high, it does start to matter whether the cage holds. These cases are somewhat a rarity.

Very correct. But at 35 to have a totaled engine for a tailgating accident... I mean seriously... But honda's are very reliable cars that is sure. And this was extremely rare. But a more close example is just how my sister honda at 100,000 miles is working great engine wise, but paint is peeling, everyything is cracking up, seats won't adjust (perhaps a lemon).

 

[vv-tim]

I see no blotchiness on my display. You sure you don't accidentally have your display's color depth set to Thousands?

You have to have good eyes to see it in Mac OS X. Posting a screenshot doesn't help though, since dithering is done between the GPU and the display. The screenshots you take will be at the color depth specified.

It is a limitation of most LCDs due to the slower pixel response times.

http://compreviews.about.com/od/multimedia/a/LCDColor.htm

That gives a good explanation about why LCDs use dithering.

I'm assuming Mac OS X's video driver is applying a much better algorithm than Windows' driver.

 

[dejo]

You have to have good eyes to see it in Mac OS X.

So, if I don't have really good eyes, it doesn't matter? I'm okay with that.

 

[JMG]

whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo




CARES?!?!?!

 

[generik]

whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo




CARES?!?!?!

The people who buy the Macbook Pro, namely the Pros!