What makes a MBP better than the E1505?

[generik]

Erm...

Costs $129 at full price, less on educational discount.

That has been debunked so many times it is not funny.

What you get for $129 is an "upgrade" license to upgrade your pre-existing installation of MacOS from whatever version it was to the current version. But what's the price of the Mac OS that came with your system? Since Mac OS does not come from non Apple branded computers nobody knows the answer to that question!

 

[j26]

That has been debunked so many times it is not funny.

What you get for $129 is an "upgrade" license to upgrade your pre-existing installation of MacOS from whatever version it was to the current version. But what's the price of the Mac OS that came with your system? Since Mac OS does not come from non Apple branded computers nobody knows the answer to that question!

And when you upgrade from XP to Vista (at an undetermined future date) you are paying for the same. Your point being?

 

[vv-tim]

And when you upgrade from XP to Vista (at an undetermined future date) you are paying for the same. Your point being?

...

Well, you can't upgrade Mac OS X to Vista... so you're going to have to purchase a full copy of Vista to install on a Mac.

That's his point, duh.

 

[vv-tim]

You can NEVER fairly compare prices between a PC and a Mac for several reasons.
a) Macs are generally made with higher-quality materials rather than cheap plastics.

Hahaha... and that's why the MacBooks are turning yellow

b) Macs have a lot of R+D put into them to make sure they're sleek, stylish and beautiful.

To some degree, yes. But there are a lot of attractive VAIOs as well.

c) Most companies offer substandard RAM. For example, when I was trying to match RAM while comparing a MBP to a Gateway, the Gateway only offered 533 MHz RAM while the Core Duo is supposed to use 633 MHz RAM.

Uhhh... the cost of 533/667 mhz ram is really not much difference. Maybe $20. So I think I can pretty easily compare. And no, the Core Duo is not SUPPOSED to get "633". The chipset supports either. I'm running my MBP w/ 533mhz ram.

d) The screens rarely match up. 14.1" or 14.2" is okay, but most of the time they're something like 1280x768 resolution rather than 1440x1028 and sometimes they're not even widescreen! Most screens aren't nearly as bright or as true-to-life as Macs have.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here. I do love my MBP screen, but you seem to have no idea what's going on. 14.1" displays are normally 1280x800, whereas 14" displays are 1280x768. Either way, it's not that much diffference. I'd be happy if my stupid MBP would support a 1920x1200 display... but it doesn't.

d) There are extras on a Mac. Lots of them. iLife is worth a lot, as well as iSight, the infrared remote and receiver, Front Row, the battery-life button on the batteries of laptops and MagSafe all add value to your Mac.

Worth a lot to who? Some people might get a lot of value out of it, sure, but to me they're just novelties. I've used iLife maybe 3 times total (and only iPhoto). iMovie just doesn't seem interesting to me... iWeb is a joke for a real developer... and iTunes is free. There are IR receivers on most laptops. The remote is kind of pointless because you're using a laptop (*gasp* I mean "notebook"). The battery life button is yet another pointless feature, and I find myself annoyed with the MagSafe most of the time.

e) There are many built-in features in Mac OS X that people don't think of to buy but WILL need down the road. Virus protection*, ad-ware/spy-ware removers*, registry cleaners*, disk burning, firewalls, media software, iLife-like software and some of the equivalents of the free applications Macs come with (Quicken, etc.)

Mac OS X doesn't have virus protection or adware protection. Microsoft provides free adware programs... Disk burning is built into Windows. So is a firewall and media software. I'd rather not even use iLife-like software (though Windows Movie Maker is included w/ MCE) and I don't believe Macs come with Quicken...

f) Most PC users wouldn't think that they'd have to spend money later in the computer's life as something breaks or dies. Macs are hardy machines and can take a LOT of abuse.

I've opened my Mac like 10 times and now the upper case is peeling apart. A lot of abuse my butt. I've been a PC user for 21 years and I've had less wrong with my Compaq and Vaio in their whole life-span than I did with my MBP the day after I bought it.

*I figured this is necessary to try to match the PC and the Mac as close as possible, so figure both computers wouldn't have these problems. And don't even try to pull that free app made by some 8 year old crap.

And, of course... It Just Works.™

A computer with Windows installed by default does not have viruses, adware, or any other problems. It's the user that's too stupid. You can't add random costs in because some users are stupid. That's like saying high insurance rates should be added to Honda Civics because more people crash them (more people drive them -- in case you didn't know).

And don't bash 8 year old kids that are obviously quite a bit brighter than you.

 

[j26]

...

Well, you can't upgrade Mac OS X to Vista... so you're going to have to purchase a full copy of Vista to install on a Mac.

That's his point, duh.

???

You can't install OSX on a non-Apple computer, so surely that issue is moot? Why try to price a full install when it can't be done?

Duh.

 

[j26]

A computer with Windows installed by default does not have viruses, adware, or any other problems. It's the user that's too stupid. You can't add random costs in because some users are stupid.

Your average computer user is not an enthusiast, they just want a machine to do a job for them (like me). Don't be so f***ing arrogant as to call them stupid because they don't know every little intricacy of their system. Most people don't know what makes their computer work, any more than they understand the process of fuel injection in their car. Doesn't mean they're stupid.

A computer with Windows installed by default has not had time to get exposed to the internet - do you think MS should install a few viruses just to get people started?
And you can add in random costs because people are stupid - there's a whole health and safety industry built around that very premise.

 

[dpaanlka]

I don't get why some of you don't just buy PCs. If you really cannot see why people are willing to pay as much as they do for Apple hardware, then why are you buying it.

And from a post way back... yes, generik, that is what you should tell your friend.

For those arguing that people with viruses are too stupid... I'm guessing that means they're not computer nerds like yourself who know what to actively beware of in case of virsues. Windows is stupid enough to let *stupid* users do stupid things. Your "people are stupid" argument is ridiculous, and only further proves the point against Windows.

 

[gnasher729]

I agree. Someone said that Dell's can't run OSX. Yeah they can, it's been done already.

That's a rather idiotic comment. You cannot run MacOS X on any Dell computer _legally_. If we consider illegal actions as well, then people can get MacBook Pros much cheaper than a Dell by robbing their nearest Apple store, or by defrauding someone on eBay. I bet that has also been done already.

Obviously you aren't too classy.
Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, etc... they all use ridiculous model numbers that I can't remember, but apparently they are better :]

I don't know about Lexus, but Mercedes and BMW model numbers have been using the same pattern for many, many years. On every Mercedes, the number is the engine size in cubic centimeters, divided by ten. So any Mercedes xxx 300 has a three liter engine. The first letter is the size. On BMWs, the first digit indicates the car size (typically 3, 5 or 7), the next two digits are engine size divided by 100. So a BMW 525 is the medium sized one with a 2.5 liter engine.

Imagine calling tech support.

luser: "Hello, hi, my iMac is not working."
tech: "Can you please tell me which iMac it is?"

It is my opinion that anyone who refers to computer users as "lusers" should never, ever be allowed into any programming job, or any other IT related job. It shows a serious attitude problem that will cost the company such a person is working for dearly at some point.

 

[j26]

I don't know about Lexus, but Mercedes and BMW model numbers have been using the same pattern for many, many years. On every Mercedes, the number is the engine size in cubic centimeters, divided by ten. So any Mercedes xxx 300 has a three liter engine. The first letter is the size. On BMWs, the first digit indicates the car size (typically 3, 5 or 7), the next two digits are engine size divided by 100. So a BMW 525 is the medium sized one with a 2.5 liter engine.

Didn't know that. There isn't a BMW 712 by any chance, is there?

 

[generik]

???

You can't install OSX on a non-Apple computer, so surely that issue is moot? Why try to price a full install when it can't be done?

Duh.

Because for the purposes of this discussion it is actually interesting to put an actual price tag on MacOS. And no, unlike Windows XP which probably costs the OEM a fixed $50 (probably less) each, the "cost" which Apple charges itself for various copies of MacOS on a Mac Mini, a MBP, and a Mac Pro can range really wildly.

Why is that so?

It is my opinion that anyone who refers to computer users as "lusers" should never, ever be allowed into any programming job, or any other IT related job. It shows a serious attitude problem that will cost the company such a person is working for dearly at some point.

Similarly it is my opinion that treating users as idiots and handholding accordingly is a great policy. Attitude problem? Don't think so. A turd is a turd no matter how you polish it, but hey, there is help available should s/he need it.

I've helped countless lusers fix up their bug ridden Windows XP computers, and at the end of it, poof, just delete the GD administrator account. Fantastic policy.

 

[Passante]

Well. This kind of sucks. I did a speech the other day for class on why you should by a Mac. This guy picked a fight with me. I saw it coming, but yeah.

So he comes to class today, and says the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP but right now for only $1100 as opposed to $2499. How does one refute that!?

I mean, I would buy the MBP. But how do you convince someone who loves Dell and things that are cheap into buying one?

I am having a tough time with this. When I buy an Apple computer, I usually look for a deal, like the used market or just do the Edu discount. But for someone who goes straight to the source and is incapable of finding deals, what incentive is there to buy a Mac in this Windows world.

Sorry, for going all over the place. I just really wish I had something to come back with. I mean, there is so much more that you get when you buy a MBP over a Dell, but these things don't seem to matter to someone who wants it cheap.

*Frustration*

The E1505 looks more like a MacBook (with a slower processor) than the Macbook Pro. I would have a hard time justifying the cost of the Macbook Pro over the MacBook for most of my computing needs. I imaging most non-Macrumors members would also. So do your comparison using the Macbook and its a slam dunk. Can the Dell run both windose and OSX no and so on.

 

[Killyp]

Tell us frankly.. you made that model number up right?

Yes. It doesn't really matter...

Sure, all those are nice features, but let's not forget the issues plaguing macs either.

Or those plaguing PCs, like Viruses, spontaneous slowing down, crashes etc...

How often does our sassy college-going Jane Doe get affected by the smart LAN cable detection?

Every time she connects her laptop to the network I'd imagine, most people don't know and don't care about the difference between a standard CAT5 or CAT6 cable and a crossover CAT6. All they want is to see a cable which looks like an ethernet cable, plug one end into their laptop, the other into the network or another computer and for it to just work...

How often does she get sweaty palms each day? Windows XP can change resolution without restarting too, hello? You still stuck on Linux on the PC world?

Yeh, it can change the resolution without restarting, but 99% of laptops can't activate the secondary channel in the graphics chip which feeds the external display output (you can tell I'm no techno whizz when it comes to GPUs), unless all you want to do is just mirror the internal display.

An OS that is 6 years ahead of anything on the market, sure, it is too advanced to run the bulk of the world's software. Or I can just cut to the chase and simply ask source please. And no, sources with "Mac" and "Apple" in them are not independent sources.

Okay then, if it isn't 6 years ahead of it's time, that must meen Windows XP is just as good as OS X. After all, XP is now 6 years old, and Vista looks like it's going to be closer to OS X's standards. That's SIX years between Apple releasing OS X and Microsoft releasing Vista...

In fact that list while very nice, and impressive sounding, think about how many of the features you named can't be just as easily struck off the list because it also exists in Windows XP? Hmm.. not so many left, and I don't care about what's left.

I don't understand. Surely the whole point in a laptop having those features is because you want it to. If you don't want all those things, then a Dell is for you...

 

[bbrosemer]

Every time she connects her laptop to the network I'd imagine, most people don't know and don't care about the difference between a standard CAT5 or CAT6 cable and a crossover CAT6. All they want is to see a cable which looks like an ethernet cable, plug one end into their laptop, the other into the network or another computer and for it to just work...

Hey I take offense to that I know the difference and am just an average college student, you know some of us are smarter than ya think.... Some average girl....Yeah id have to agree especially since they all use Gateways

 

[kgarner]

That has been debunked so many times it is not funny.

What you get for $129 is an "upgrade" license to upgrade your pre-existing installation of MacOS from whatever version it was to the current version. But what's the price of the Mac OS that came with your system? Since Mac OS does not come from non Apple branded computers nobody knows the answer to that question!

What you get for your $129 is a full license of OS X. It is not an upgrade because you can take that disc and install it onto a blank hard drive (i.e. no previous install of OS X exists). The install does not ask for you to insert your previous version or system restore disc to verify that you have an old version (a common pratice of upgrade versions). And since OS X does not require a serial number or other such regulation you are not asked to enter the previous nubmer to verify ownership of a previous version. It is a full version, not an upgrade.

 

[chaosbunny]

generik, you wrote somewhere that pcs and windows are about choice. Where is the choice when I'm forced to use an operating system I do not like? I chose OS X, and I am happy with it.

 

[Topono]

the "cost" which Apple charges itself for various copies of MacOS on a Mac Mini, a MBP, and a Mac Pro can range really wildly.

So you are saying Apple might charge themselves $60 to put OS X on a Mac mini, then turn around and charge themselves the full $129 to put OS X on a Mac Pro?

 

[gco212]

I'm calling BS on the initial premise here. When the macbook (not pro) came out, there was a page 2 story here comparing the macbook to 4 laptops made by other PC manufactuers. The macbook had the best or close to best specs/dollar of any of them.

But now someone says that for the cost of a macbook, not pro, there's a laptop with the specs of the pro? I'd like to see this.

I recently built a 1505 (didn't buy it) with 2 gigs of RAM, 120 GB HDD, 256 MB ATI X1400, 2.0 GHz Core Duo, 4 year extended warranty with Complete Care, and a Sound Blaster audio card for $1400, for $1100, you could lose the 2 Gigs of RAM, and warranty, and fall very close to the specs of the MBP by adding the remote for $25.

 

[gco212]

What you get for your $129 is a full license of OS X. It is not an upgrade because you can take that disc and install it onto a blank hard drive (i.e. no previous install of OS X exists). The install does not ask for you to insert your previous version or system restore disc to verify that you have an old version (a common pratice of upgrade versions). And since OS X does not require a serial number or other such regulation you are not asked to enter the previous nubmer to verify ownership of a previous version. It is a full version, not an upgrade.

Maybe it's not an upgrade, but since it can't be used on anything other than Mac hardware, there's also no way it could be used on a computer that didn't previously have a Mac OS on it, so you must be using it to upgrade the computer.

 

[user23]

Two points.

1) Boot camp is currently in beta.

2) Overpaying Apple for the previlege of running Mac OS on a computer equipped with a big brother chip does not really equate to an advantage. On the Apple, the user chooses to get blackmailed. For the Dell user he refuses to yield. There is no technical reason why MacOS can't run on the Dell apart from Apple's business model.

What are you speaking about? Big Brother chip?

Surely you *must* be referring to Windows machines & their quaint efforts to control piracy...like WGA.

regarding other statements you have made, what does Alcohol 120% do that Toast can't?

Similarly it is my opinion that treating users as idiots and handholding accordingly is a great policy. Attitude problem? Don't think so. A turd is a turd no matter how you polish it, but hey, there is help available should s/he need it.

I've helped countless lusers fix up their bug ridden Windows XP computers, and at the end of it, poof, just delete the GD administrator account. Fantastic policy.

Wow. You just summed yourself up nicely, Mr. Misanthrope.

You are, essentially, just a troll. Not even just a forum troll, but a life troll. Nice attitude, try Prozac - maybe you'll smile for once in your life


Have you ever considered that, maybe, users aren't idiots? Maybe they are normal people faced with using a bizarrely complicated & buggy OS? Windows, to me, is a wretched non-intuitive experience. I don't blame the peeps for "getting stupid" when using it...

 

[user23]

Because for the purposes of this discussion it is actually interesting to put an actual price tag on MacOS. And no, unlike Windows XP which probably costs the OEM a fixed $50 (probably less) each, the "cost" which Apple charges itself for various copies of MacOS on a Mac Mini, a MBP, and a Mac Pro can range really wildly.

Why is that so?

Uhm, this statement of yours is flat-out bizarre.

Please, do, cite your sources for how much Windows costs a distributor. Frankly, I think you are totally clueless in this dept. since you've already used the key word "probably" which, to me, indicates GUESS WORK.

Second, "Apple charges itself for various copies of MacOS"

What various copies & prices of OS X are you talking about? Cite sources.

 

[Natsus]

What are you speaking about? Big Brother chip?

Surely you *must* be referring to Windows machines & their quaint efforts to control piracy...like WGA.

regarding other statements you have made, what does Alcohol 120% do that Toast can't?

I too am curious about the big brother chip. If it's anything like what I'm thinking of, it does not exist.

In any case, the bottom line is that Dell Laptops are cheaper than Macs no matter how you price it. Some one already summed it up nicely but it seemed to have been glossed over so I'll repeat it. Dell Laptops are cheaper compared to ANY laptop brand. Why? Because they can. Larger market share plus various other reasons.

I don't see why we need to have this argument. Macs will always be more expensive due to a smaller share of the market. You are pretty much paying extra for OSX and its corresponding Apple only apps, as well as a sleaker design.

However, if the financial reports are anything to go by, Apple's user base will increase further thus driving the price lower, making it more competitive.

Then again, I somehow doubt we'll see a lower price point any time soon

 

[RichardFASmith]

I like the car analogy. However, I would like to modify it to better suit the question. When a MacBook Pro and a Dell whatever model have similar spec, why go for the more expensive MacBook Pro? Lets rephrase. When a Skoda Fabia, and a VW Golf are in essence the same car, why go for the more expensive VW? Afterall they are similar cars, they have similar engines, the same Volkswagen engineers, the same VW chasis (I apolagise for spelling). So why do people buy the more expensive Golf? Simply put, spec isn't everything, you buy a Golf, and you get respect, you get build quality, you buy the style. Whereas if you buy the budget car, everyone will look at your car and know you were trying to go cheap, they will know that you'd prefer price over quality. Same goes for a Mac over a Dell. Sorry to ramble for so long, but the analogy fits. next time someone asks you that question, reply by asking whether they would buy a Golf over a similar Fabia.

 

[user23]

I too am curious about the big brother chip. If it's anything like what I'm thinking of, it does not exist.

In any case, the bottom line is that Dell Laptops are cheaper than Macs no matter how you price it. Some one already summed it up nicely but it seemed to have been glossed over so I'll repeat it. Dell Laptops are cheaper compared to ANY laptop brand. Why? Because they can. Larger market share plus various other reasons.

I don't see why we need to have this argument. Macs will always be more expensive due to a smaller share of the market. You are pretty much paying extra for OSX and its corresponding Apple only apps, as well as a sleaker design.

However, if the financial reports are anything to go by, Apple's user base will increase further thus driving the price lower, making it more competitive.

Then again, I somehow doubt we'll see a lower price point any time soon

Nicely stated. I'd like to add that a Mac remains a quick machine from the day you buy it to the day you sell it. They are quality machines built from quality components that last a looooong time. This is why Macs have a high resale value YEARS down the line, and why Windows machines don't.

yes, yes. go ahead and tell us all about how crappy MBP machines are with all their flaws. Go ahead and tell us all how crappy the hi-res Power Book was with all its flaws. But, remember, Apple sells MILLIONS of machines...and just like ANY computer manufacturer, there will be issues with some of those machines. This is what life is like on the material plane, things break & are sometimes broken from the beginning. That's what Apple Care & product warranty's are for.

However, I can assure you, if Macs/iPods really "sucked"...Then Apple wouldn't have Financial Quarters such as the one that just passed by. Glad I own me some AAPL

 

[displaced]

If you're arguing with a self-confessed 'tech' lover, call them out on their closed-mindedness.

A true geek will want to have used and know about everything out there. They should've taken the time to get to understand how a whole stack of operating systems and hardware work.

Anyone with a proper understanding should be able to appreciate (and, with knowledge) properly critique the design of an operating system.

Try to get them to debate the details. Talk about Quartz Compositor versus GDI or GDI+. Show knowledge of the 'other side'. Know how technologies compare. Acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of both sides (the WinNT kernel is, in isolation, actually quite good indeed). Mention in passing that a lot of the direction Microsoft is taking their platform is in fact borrowing the same concepts that OS X (and, indeed, NeXTSTEP) have always followed (so much of the .net approach to application structure is clearly mirroring OS X's).

Diffuse the conflict, and start a discussion!

For the real techie who doesn't understand Macs, you'll pique their interest and probably get them asking question after question about the Mac.

For the non-technical, non-partisan computer user, a simple demo of how OS X behaves is usually enough for them to appreciate the machine.

For the "a little knowledge is dangerous", highly partisan Windows user, you'll expose holes in their understanding of their own operating system.

 

[vv-tim]

Nicely stated. I'd like to add that a Mac remains a quick machine from the day you buy it to the day you sell it. They are quality machines built from quality components that last a looooong time. This is why Macs have a high resale value YEARS down the line, and why Windows machines don't.

Nice try.

Macs remain at the same speed from the day you buy it to the day you sell it. "Quick" is a relative term. If I sell my new MBP in 5 years, it will not be "quick" by the standards of 2011.

They are quality designs made from normal parts. In fact, my friends will Dell 700Ms have MUCH BETTER Wi-Fi range than my MBP :/ It kinda stinks.

Oh, and Macs have a high resale value years down the line because Macs have a fixed cycle of upgrades. PCs upgrade monthyl or bi-monthly. With a Mac you get upgrades every six months or so. The Mac upgrade cycle is what lends it to such a good level of depreciation.