Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
macOS doesn't support anywhere near that number of application threads (max 64). The rest of the Mac line up and iOS/iPad OS devices don't need more than 64 either. Apple forking macOS just for one, extremely low volume Mac product is pretty unlikely. If that is a hard core requirement might as well jump onto a Windows/Linux dual Xeon SP or Epyc box at the end of 2022 (or Threadripper 5000 ).

Two 16TB U.2 drive will get to 32TB now with a single x16 PCI-e slot now.


Two slots and four drives would be 64TB. ( more later when higher capacity U.2 rolls out).

Apple doesn't need to provision the SSD themselves. They need to provision the slot(s) that can provision high capacity. At that point there will be multiple ways over time to provide more higher than "average speed" internal storage.
( The part should be nervous about now on Apple's SSD drives is if they are going to abandon the NAND Data cards (SSD's modules) or push soldered all the way down up to the Mac Pro also. If there is no "big" iMac to be another consumer of these modules then Apple may go cheap route (for them) and solder them down. Bad idea for customers but more money for the Scrooge McDuck money pit under HQ. )


The major problem at the moment is they are no were near provisioning an electrical x16 connection. Let alone two x16 connections with any of the SoCs they have rolled out.

If all they have is a M1 Max with UltraFusion connector is perhaps build a PCI-e expansion module and attach that to a Max via the Fusion connector. And then claim that it isn't another M1 Soc. Or perhaps once again 'hid' something in the UltraFusion connector interposer die to get them some lane provisioning .





Even going from TSMC N5 to N3 and taking only maximum power reduction benefits is only a -30% reduction in power. So about 160-170+ W and that reduction .... 112-119 W. That still wouldn't happen. The M2 either has N5P or N4/N4P which are small fractions of that reduction. Not going to happen at M2. M2 may not even have a new Max let alone a new Ultra. M2 and M2 Pro ( with some narrow tweaks. a couple of GPU and/or E cores tossed in. And an A-series , small scale ProRes tossed into the M2. ). The will be an incrementally faster M2/M3 Max along the way in a year or two that will probably suffice.

Maybe around M5, M6, or M7 generation; you have many years to save up for that system in laptop. And only if Apple doesn't "thin out" the MBP 14/16 in the mean time. (e.g., future, faster Max at lower W allows them to trim off from the MBP without backsliding. )

It would be nice if some people stopped telling other people their opinions are wrong on what they would like.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
It would be nice if some people stopped telling other people their opinions are wrong on what they would like.

Your expectations are hopeless is different from your opinion is wrong.

People can have an opinion that the next Mac Pro comes with hot pink case with "my little pony" stickers and disco light show coolers inside. It isn't going to happen.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: AlphaCentauri

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
Your expectations are hopeless is different from your opinion is wrong.

People can have an opinion that the next Mac Pro comes with hot pink case with "my little pony" stickers and disco light show coolers inside. It isn't going to happen.
Your opinion is hopelessly overvalued by yourself. Thank you for showing us what it's actually worth.
 
Last edited:

fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,028
1,831
USB-A never did disappear off the larger iMac/Mac Pro/Mini progression ( iMac Retina 5K -> iMac Pro -> Mac Studio. MP 2009 -> 2013 -> 2019 ).

It probably isn't coming back to the iMac 24" (but had it until this recent "thin out"). Didn't come back to the laptops either. Depend upon how far they shrink the low end Mini.

HDMI off the Mac Pro? When? The HDMI on the Studio? That is probably more AppleTV and Mini parts being cheap to add than fear of "Pros" wagging their fingers at Apple.


SD Card on the non 14"/16" laptops? I'd would wait to declare victory there.

MagSafe ? Again on the lighter , smaller laptops ... we'll see.
I'm pretty sure the post-Ive pivot has just been to make more ports/etc as "pro"/high end features on their machines. So I agree, I don't think the entry-level stuff are going to move away from USB-C. I can see it's possible they pick up Magsafe but I'd say it's only even odds there.
 

rondocap

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 18, 2011
542
341
Max tech on YouTube had a video on some potential leaks for the next Macpro, some interesting possibilities that could be potentially true, what do you guys think?

1. Will be the same physical design
2. Will support expandable ram
3. Will have pcie slots and Support existing mpx gpus


These are all possibilities, but it would make sense as Apple has said it will be different than the other M1 chips. I’m sure there will be a model with an integrated GPU as well, but perhaps some option to still use MPX modules. I don’t see a reason why potentially this could work with a slightly different architecture than we are used to.

w6800x duo in Mac Pro for me is still 60% faster for gpu heavy r3d raw Vs the Mac studio ultra, so even doubling that gpu core count to 128 may only close the gap and not beat it, but a faster mpx Rdna3 gpu may have bigger gains.

what do you guys think? I know we all assumed Apple would just go and basically make it all integrated like the Mac Studio is, just bigger and faster, but it makes sense to retain the same enclosure as they will still need a lot of cooling - and PCIE slots are key to differentiating the Mac Pro from everything else
 

mikas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2017
898
648
Finland
I don't know yet what to think about it. Two M1 Ultras interconnected.
I don't care what it is called though, M1 or M2 +something spectacular word added to it
Screengrabs for those who can't stand watching youtubers:
1649390785098.png

1649390939123.png

1649391057886.png

1649391101085.png

I still believe Apple fails giving us any useful modularity. But I would really really like to be wrong on this one.
 

Lyndon92

macrumors member
Mar 26, 2022
50
66
It really needs to modulable. The Mac Pro has always been THE UPGRADEABLE Macintosh.
If they use SoC with absolutely no way to upgrade, they will kill Mac Pro, and that's where M1 chips really sucks. SoC is the best way to spit on customers, and they already doing it with M1 Macs.
Sure it's efficient and nice performance, but if you wanna change anything, you need buy a new computer...
 
  • Like
Reactions: prefuse07

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
I don't know yet what to think about it. Two M1 Ultras interconnected.
I don't care what it is called though, M1 or M2 +something spectacular word added to it
Screengrabs for those who can't stand watching youtubers:
View attachment 1988269
View attachment 1988271
View attachment 1988274
View attachment 1988275
I still believe Apple fails giving us any useful modularity. But I would really really like to be wrong on this one.



M2 Pro and M2 Max. 12 cores. Pretty decent chance that is more likely 8P+4E than 10P+2E. Whether M2 using TSMC N5P or some N4 variant there isn't much of a shrink to drop in half a P-cluster versus just add one new E cluster (4 cores).

The double Ultra ends up with 16 E cores but probably haven't cranked up the bandwidth pressure , power, thermals that much either. If clocking the GPUs cores faster there will be uplift there. 32 P cores would be nothing to scoff at. That would be a ton of performance. It won't be a Threadripper 5995WX 'killer' across the board , but it would be competitive.

Apple spending money on UltraFusion(2?) (Daisy) and DaisyXL ( "UltraFusion(2?) eXtra Large" ) is suggestive there is no 'discrete' Apple GPU coming any time soon. Apple is shooting for biggest single GPU rather than a discrete one. DaisyXL 01 wide and DaisyXL 02 wide seem to provision a 4 way , one hop to all others connection network for the four "Max" class dies.

( April 2017 Apple said customers asked for 'biggest/most powerful' single GPU rather than multiple ones. Careful for what wish for. This will be a very 'big' package. )

A subsystem of DaisyXL to provision a connection to a memory controller wouldn't be all that surprising if have to swap out the 'inner' quad cluster memory controllers to put in the Daisy XL connection complex. ( DaisyXL 'narrow' could be the memory data coming back in for the inner edges of the cluster). If expanded the inner cluster edges ( and if N4 variant where a decent portion of the small density improvements mostly went ) then perhaps a in/out bound data paths for expanded PCI-e slot provisioning

If there is a detached chiplet(s) for memory and/or PCI-e controller(s) that would open door to more modularity. A 'secondary' DDR Memory controller could provision some tiered memory. A two x16 PCI-e v4 controllers could provision a decent amount of PCI-e slots ( current MP 2019 uses two x16 PCI-e v3 bundles to provision slots 2 , 4, 5 , 6 , 7 ,8 through a single switch. It wouldn't be hard to do 3-4 slots with a switch with two x16 sources. )

That said if Apple's strategy is to "glue together" four "Max" laptop dies to do a Mac Pro SoC to keep the chip development costs down , then Mac Pro is going to get a heft amount of "Max" laptop characteristics. One big GPU. Mostly soldered down Memory (for one big GPU). A decent amount of E cores , etc.

These diagrams look like DaisyXL gives them some wiggle room for some additional workstation features that won't appear in the laptops, but the core building block here is the exactly the same. The folks advocating for a "ground up" special version just for high end desktops (or just for the Mac Pro and some quest into the server market ) that is a Threadripper / Xeon W 'killer' SoC. ( or Xeon SP Gen 4/5 or Epyc gen 4/5 killer). Probably not if these diagrams are accurate.

With three or four 2.5D (or 3D) , 'narrow' interposers/connectors ( Daisy , Daisy XL 1 , 2 , 3(?) ) this will be expensive. Thrown in a memory/PCI-e tile even more so. Mac Pro entry costs higher from there they start now wouldn't be surprising. However, should be able to leverage Diasy XL with an Ultra ( and whatever memory/PCI_e chiplet they come up with) to create a Ultra+extras Mac Pro at 24 CPU + 48 Cores to keep the price creep down somewhat.


Apple is going to try to promote the sale of their monster 128 core GPU. So discount 3rd party GPU competition that requires drivers that don't even exist? Don't hold your breath.

Even without a fancy PCI-e chiplet/tile if there are 3 other Max dies if add some updates so that the four x1 PCI-e v4 could be clustered as one x4 PCI-e bundle , Apple could squeak out some x8 PCI-e v3 slots relatively easily with some switch up/down shift converters. Probably will at least get some slots with 'better than Thunderbolt' bandwidth. And better than that if Apple puts in some decent effort.



P.S. Perhaps Apple is being conservative on leverage fab tech evolution, but it seems a bit odd to throw all this complexity at the M2 generation. Once get past the TSMC N5 (and N4) variants could 'shrink' the Ultra into a die. That would collapse the need for at around half of these Daisy interconnections that add to packaging complexity. Yeah the dies would be a big bigger than the 'Max' chips dealing with now but Apple isn't charging 'discount' pricing for these SoC.

A M2 , M2 Pro , and maybe a non-Ultra Fusion , no Daisy XL Max would make sense for N5P/N4x while wait for N3 to come on line. Just ride the Ultra for a 12-16 months and switch to M3/TSMC N3

A relatively very low volume M2 Extreme and a 'plain' M2 could go to market about the same time though. If Apple launched the Mac Pro at a price only an extreme few anyone could afford , Apple could check the box as completing the transition with the Mac Pro in 2022 , while really not shipping much. Normal folks Mac Pro volume could start in 2023.
 
  • Like
Reactions: edanuff

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Max tech on YouTube had a video on some potential leaks for the next Macpro, some interesting possibilities that could be potentially true, what do you guys think?

1. Will be the same physical design
2. Will support expandable ram
3. Will have pcie slots and Support existing mpx gpus


#1 and #3 are basically highly coupled to one another. If Apple lets the legacy MPX modules back in then basically need to reuse the same box baseline design. The MPX modules are thermally highly coupled to the case for the complete thermal solution. The thermal system there has two major , but seperated, components. The "holistically connected' fans are on the case, not modules.

That is a bit circular so if presume #3 (primary MPX GPUs) than have to get back to #1.


MPX GPUs as Apple GPUs (not legacy or future 3rd party AMD/Intel ones )? probably not. The MPX connector turned into some "UtlraFusion to a card" connector? Way too narrow, too hot, and too slow. With a decent sized iGPU MPX doesn't make much sense at all.


The AMD MPX as fully functional general GPU display cards. I suspect not. As a "compute GPU" maybe. WWDC 2022 will tell. An MPX connector in a new Mac Pro that just provides power. Could be. Apple running the DisplayPort back to the Apple SoC? Probably not. Apple losing sleep on provisioning TBv3 ports on a "compute GPU" ? Probably not.




These are all possibilities, but it would make sense as Apple has said it will be different than the other M1 chips.

Apple didn't say that. Apple said that the Ultra was the last of the M1's. That doesn't mean Apple is going to radically change their design principles going forward. Largely it just means Mac Pro will get something after the M1 generation. A M2 or M3 something. Mac Pro is just not being done in the first "round". At this late in the game .. that should be obvious ( well past the year 1 or even 1.5 in transition. )


I’m sure there will be a model with an integrated GPU as well, but perhaps some option to still use MPX modules. I don’t see a reason why potentially this could work with a slightly different architecture than we are used to.

w6800x duo in Mac Pro for me is still 60% faster for gpu heavy r3d raw Vs the Mac studio ultra, so even doubling that gpu core count to 128 may only close the gap and not beat it, but a faster mpx Rdna3 gpu may have bigger gains.

Yeah, but if double up the Ultra that would be faster. If 64 Apple GPU cores are 60% there is only a 40% gap there. Another 64 cores is pretty likely to cover that gap even with a modest loss in linear improvement. Decent chance in the 105-115% range.

The Ultra doesn't have to cover the W6800X Duo because it is not the end of the Mac line up in the future. A "Dual Ultra" will cover the "Duo MPX".

The "Dual Ultra" would perhaps not cover a hypothetical W7800X Duo , but that doesn't really exist at this point. AMD may leapfrog Apple in late 2022 and 1H 2023 but Apple could leapfrog them in 2H 2023 while AMD pauses on TSMC N5 for a while (and Apple counters with N3).


what do you guys think? I know we all assumed Apple would just go and basically make it all integrated like the Mac Studio is, just bigger and faster, but it makes sense to retain the same enclosure as they will still need a lot of cooling - and PCIE slots are key to differentiating the Mac Pro from everything else

Slots differentiating? Yes. 3rd party "display" GPUs not so much.

Amazon's Graviton 3 puts the memory controllers and PCI-e controllers on a seperate chiplet/tile. Could Apple go down the same path and put some PCI-e controller(s) on a chiplet and connect with a augmented UltraFusion. Sure. Some 'secondary' RAM controller on a separate chiplet? Sure, will need some OS augments so memory allocation is 'aware' of the differences, but it is doable.

But neither of those means taking a huge 180 turn from baseline track they are on.

Zero 3rd party GPU 'display driving' drivers on macOS M-series. Several kinds of PCI-e cards already work on M1 systems over Thunderbolt. So no reason why wouldn't work with them on an internal PCI-e bus. Apple has had baseline support for that general case all along. ( they just haven't covered every possible card. ) Apple is on track to push non Apple drivers out of the kernel. And the basic boot support is "locked down in 'one true recovery' and iBoot related processes). [ e.g., there is zero need for a "Compute GPU" at the early to bootstrapping process of boot time. As long as initialized before user login, that is fine. ]
 
  • Like
Reactions: edanuff

MarkC426

macrumors 68040
May 14, 2008
3,698
2,097
UK
Whatever happens, actually getting a machine in hand wil be luck of the draw in the current market. Following Xbox X/PS5 non-existance and stupid waits for the Mac Studio, things are only going to get worse.....?
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.