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What was the last credible MacPro rumor?
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This underlines the major issue of the nMP vs "Pro" community.of course !
Most defenders of the Cylinder cite FCPX performance gains. Hence.
Apple strips down the Mac Pro machine into a very narrowly defined use case, and expects everyone to roll with it, as if all users of the cMP, the G5 and the PPC G4 were all video editors. It would be nice if your specific FCPX workflows fits into the niche, but god forbid for other pros who need some expandability and flexibility. The limitations on the hardware not only hurts the users, but as discussed in this thread it is also barring the newer iterations to happen, as the components used inside require delicate balance in thermo efficiency and performance. It is a vicious cycle, the owners from 2013 can't upgrade, nor do they have a new model to replace with, then for non owners looking at the price it is a clear rip off.
Bullseye-ing an FCPX centric workflow also is short sighted as creative professions often has a wide coverage of interest, and industry trend changes. While it is true that a few years no one would predict the importance of CUDA, but if the Mac Pro retained a tower PC form factor, at least people could throw in an nVidia GPU on their own if they needed to. This is why even without Pascal drivers, the cMP can still be configured more powerfully than the maxed out nMP. Why sacrifice potential in real world performance just for the sake of form and space saving, which is only secondary in a professional scenario where the computer should be a problem-solver. 10 years ago we had an x-serve RAID in the server room, with the fiber channel sticking out, ran across half the hall to be plugged into the 8 core MP 3,1, no one in the studio need to be bothered about the noise or heat generated by that reck or how much space it takes.
Apple has put itself in a position that not only middle fingers the users, but it fingers themselves with the other hand. To this day I still cannot grasp how they didn't learn from the G4 Cube. The market does need a mini tower but not at the premium price point, nor with the top of the line performance, we just want some headless Mac X that is slightly better than the Mini. In fact, take away the 5K screen from the 6700k iMac then we got a really decent workstation, perhaps with much better thermo envelop so it doesn't throttle. And the absolute top of the line machine should be left open for 3rd party expansions (PCI cards), not in the form of unproven interfaces such as Thunderbolt.
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NO! Apple rigged the nMP to try and boost FCPX out of 3rd place behind Avid and Premiere. The thinking was that people would switch because nMP & FCPX went hand in hand. More people switched to PC to use Avid rather than using an nMP with FCPX.
I find FCPX with a nMP to be amazing, performance wise. Pricing for the nMP and the fact that its pretty much only good for FCPX makes it a very bad deal even when it came out, unless video editing is the only thing you do.
Honestly I dont understand why people don't move on, are you gonna buy a new Desktop, Apple isn't gonna give you what you want anymore.
Btw, out of curiosity...why doesn't more people use Vegas for movie editing?. I found it to be almost as responsive as FCPX and the features are better and the UX is just amazing - for me it is superior to any other video editing software (though video editing is not my daily job). Its WAY better IMO to edit videos in Vegas than premiere or FCPX. The only reason Premiere wins over Vegas to me is the integration with After Effects, apart from that every other part of Premiere is more cumbersome....that goes for FCPX as well.
The performance in other parts of the Workstation components is getting better. The demand on hardware to push the limits is more. Is nMP is fast enough ? for FCPX ? Sure.. for 3d work? Those Wintel boxes can run circles around it.
For all those citing shrinking PC market, well... The kind of users the Mac pro was designed for? They never went away. Apple used to produce competent Workstations before. What happened ?
design for design's sake.. Bah !
For all those citing shrinking PC market, well... The kind of users the Mac pro was designed for? They never went away. Apple used to produce competent Workstations before. What happened ?
design for design's sake.. Bah !
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Tim and Sir Idiot Boy seem to think so.
of course !
Most defenders of the Cylinder cite FCPX performance gains. Hence.
So working in Final Cut Pro X is not a professional area then? Okay.
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How can I get Thunderbolt 3 on my 2010 Mac Pro or my 1st generation i7 Windows machine? They have PCIe slots, that is all that is needed right?
Really, I would like to get TB3 on my older systems. Everybody I talked to said it needed Skylake, I guess because the specifically mention the 7th generation processor on that site.
Look, you buy what you need. There are some workflows that REQUIRE a $5,000 Quadro video card with 24 GB of VRAM. I do not go around complaining to Dell that they do not offer than specific video card for my needs.
I need a FCPX machine, name one that is better than the 2013 Mac Pro and I would gladly buy it instead. So to ME, the 2013 Mac Pro is the best performing Mac out there. You have a different workflow, so your needs are different.
Some workflows run better on Windows anyway. Some workflows run better on Mac. That is why I have two computers.
Every time there is an Apple vs Pro argument there is always the "if and only if" logic guy.
Look, it is Apple's design choice in the nMP that alienates itself from the rest of the Pros. It was Apple's product line up choice to phase out the cMP form factor. It is Apple's strategic choice to keep selling the nMP like new with the price not only un-discounted, but increased recently. Even considering the nMP being a wonderful FCP machine, how does some one make the case as if it was the rest of the pro crowd singling out the FCPX crowd when it is completely the other way round?
The Mac is not just a generic workstation where you have other vendor choices readily accessible. It is an ecosystem that Apple used to gladly maintain, creative industries thrived from it (and one would argue Apple survived due to it but that's not their concern of course). The cost and pain associated with switching isn't a dismissible sum, as far as pros are concerned. You also suggested having two different systems for different workflows. What do you think that means financially for a team or studios of multiple teams?
Look, it is Apple's design choice in the nMP that alienates itself from the rest of the Pros. It was Apple's product line up choice to phase out the cMP form factor. It is Apple's strategic choice to keep selling the nMP like new with the price not only un-discounted, but increased recently. Even considering the nMP being a wonderful FCP machine, how does some one make the case as if it was the rest of the pro crowd singling out the FCPX crowd when it is completely the other way round?
The Mac is not just a generic workstation where you have other vendor choices readily accessible. It is an ecosystem that Apple used to gladly maintain, creative industries thrived from it (and one would argue Apple survived due to it but that's not their concern of course). The cost and pain associated with switching isn't a dismissible sum, as far as pros are concerned. You also suggested having two different systems for different workflows. What do you think that means financially for a team or studios of multiple teams?
And there is something preventing everyone from even firing up Logic Pro or Photoshop?
This is why this entire "NOT PRO AAAAAHAHHHHHHHHHH" argument is just dumb. Does OS X say "Sorry, you are running a 2013 Mac Pro and are unable to even launch Logic Pro/Photoshop/Xcode/Blender/whatever"?
I am sure the folks at Pixar or BIG BIG BIG movie studios and 3D studios feel that your "pro" system is not "pro" to them. That is why this argument needs to just be done. Some workflows require DUAL $5,000 Quadro cards for 48 GB of VRAM. Do you need that? Then you are not a pro!
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Again you are speaking in "if and only if" scenarios. The problem is not about whether you or me is closer to the definition of a "Pro". The real issue is Apple's products, as late as their 2012 cMP design, allowed the flexibility in a machine where both you and I can properly equip it up to our task. It is the inability of doing this that is upsetting the rest the pros.
Just a quick mental exercise: if the cMP form survived to this day with a modern motherboard, with the same ports you got on nMP or more, and in it there is a great AMD GPU geared for FCPX, and then FCPX is optimised for this system. Would you gladly take it as well as the nMP?
Wahahahahahaha I should as hell hope not. FCP X sucks
There are only 2 REAL NLEs out there. Avid and Premiere Pro.
WATCH THIS TO UNDERSTAND
Bingo.
Flexibility doesn't preclude usage of FCPX. All of us would benefit if Apple maintained it.
ALL. Get it ?
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We all do not open our computer case and tinker around inside it. When was that considered a "pro" thing to do? That is what computer professionals do, but not video production professionals or audio creation professionals. We get a computer to do our job. Sometimes, the price of the computer is made up even after one project!
I have actually 5 computers. Three macs, and two windows PCs. I built my current Windows desktop. I do not like messing around with the internals. The only thing I did after building my Windows desktop was put in a GTX 1080 because I built the computer before that was available so I used my older card for a while. I do not plan to open the case again unless there is an issue. Since I built it, I am the warranty center
I get a computer that meets my needs for the job I am doing. If my needs change, I get a different computer. For example, my windows desktop is built as a gaming and recording machine. If my needs changed, and I needed to do HEAVY 3D work, I would need to literally upgrade every component. Why do that? I could (for just the additional price of a new case) just build a new computer and have TWO!
They need PCIe lanes and DisplayPort on the mobo.
Skylake also needs PCIe lanes and DisplayPort on the mobo. (And Skylake is 6th gen, not 7th gen)
I am sure there are video professionals who bought cMP to use and never bothered opening the case, and the machine worked fine for them without maintenance. Having the ability to tinker is not a necessary feature for a pro scenario, but you can't tell me that it is not a helpful one in many situations. If streamlining the form factor does not provide immediate performance gains or leads to cheaper price, then why would a user who lose the prospects of expandability be happy about the change? So you as a video professional does not tinker the computer, then how about the hardware specialist that receive your call after your machine fails? Or are you telling me you expect to replace the workstation mac every 3 years once the Apple Care expires?
Flexibility isn't exclusive, why are you always splitting things black and white, when you yourself in the same reply noted your diverse collection of work machines with both Macs and Windows PC, so you clearly understand the benefits of having choices. The point we are trying to make is to apply that mentality into one machine itself. You may not appreciate having a flexible machine but why dismiss others who obviously would love one?
The 2012 unibody MBP had user accessible RAM and SATA drive bay, but a grandma can use the computer without any knowledge of it and not be hindered by the presence of it. This computer is no less user friendly while still providing some means for user maintenance and user upgrades. So Apple isn't just pulling this same trick on the MP line up, it is happening across their entire pipeline, as the later MBPs have been getting more and more soldered parts.
It is like watching a train crash, and you think we complain because we are inside of it when I am just the guy standing next to you.
Flexibility isn't exclusive, why are you always splitting things black and white, when you yourself in the same reply noted your diverse collection of work machines with both Macs and Windows PC, so you clearly understand the benefits of having choices. The point we are trying to make is to apply that mentality into one machine itself. You may not appreciate having a flexible machine but why dismiss others who obviously would love one?
The 2012 unibody MBP had user accessible RAM and SATA drive bay, but a grandma can use the computer without any knowledge of it and not be hindered by the presence of it. This computer is no less user friendly while still providing some means for user maintenance and user upgrades. So Apple isn't just pulling this same trick on the MP line up, it is happening across their entire pipeline, as the later MBPs have been getting more and more soldered parts.
It is like watching a train crash, and you think we complain because we are inside of it when I am just the guy standing next to you.
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We all do not open our computer case and tinker around inside it. When was that considered a "pro" thing to do? That is what computer professionals do, but not video production professionals or audio creation professionals. We get a computer to do our job. Sometimes, the price of the computer is made up even after one project!
I have actually 5 computers. Three macs, and two windows PCs. I built my current Windows desktop. I do not like messing around with the internals. The only thing I did after building my Windows desktop was put in a GTX 1080 because I built the computer before that was available so I used my older card for a while. I do not plan to open the case again unless there is an issue. Since I built it, I am the warranty center
I am trying to understand what you are saying here. You say that tinkering with systems isn't what video/audio professionals do, that work is for computer professionals ( never mind installing/swapping a few drives/cards isn't quite tinkering )
Then you go on to add that you built a windows system for gaming and recording.
Then you suggest instead of upgrading internals of an existing system, it's better to build a new one ( in case you might need to do heavy 3D work ) Heavy 3D work usually falls into the profession category, and going by your logic, professionals don't tinker with systems so building one might not be a good idea, yes ? (Getting a pre built one is better you suggest ) so why did you build one ?
And how would adding a new case magically be a brand new system ? Wouldn't you still have to purchase all the components ( that you don't want to upgrade the existing system with ) ?
You have 5 systems ? Good for you. I would rather have one that handles my needs - all the way from heavy 3D work to answering client emails.
The "A New Mac Pro Is Coming" and "Apple still cares about the creative professional market" holdouts always remind me of the stories you read about Japanese soldiers in the 1950's that have been in the jungle for a decade, not knowing the war was lost a long time ago.
In recent years, a nasty trend has shown up on this discussion board. A question gets asked that is associated with (even slightly) Apple's choices in hardware design, and (A) people start flame wars over what a "pro" machine is, and (B) people start flame wars over what a "pro" user is.
Gentle people, the former is tiresome, and the latter is obnoxious.
We've all heard it before 100 times or more: people insisting that a "pro" machine can't be one unless it meets some particular guy's strict personal definition. Tiresome! Move on, sulk in quiet, wait for Apple in a Zen state of peace, or deal with it however is best for you personally.
But calling out what a "pro user" is, again per some guy's personal definition, is even more obnoxious. For the sake of what little decorum is left in these discussions, just don't go there.
Peace.
Gentle people, the former is tiresome, and the latter is obnoxious.
We've all heard it before 100 times or more: people insisting that a "pro" machine can't be one unless it meets some particular guy's strict personal definition. Tiresome! Move on, sulk in quiet, wait for Apple in a Zen state of peace, or deal with it however is best for you personally.
But calling out what a "pro user" is, again per some guy's personal definition, is even more obnoxious. For the sake of what little decorum is left in these discussions, just don't go there.
Peace.
There is nothing else to discus
It's understandable when a company labels products as pro and then severly underdelivers ...
Used to cater very well to that specific audience before
a lot of content creators and scientists and then just screws over that core audience.
Macs made people feel pro, now they feel ripped off.
Apple does respond ... in some way ... with 32gb macbook ...
With Mac Pro it's pray or buy windows ...
It's understandable when a company labels products as pro and then severly underdelivers ...
Used to cater very well to that specific audience before
a lot of content creators and scientists and then just screws over that core audience.
Macs made people feel pro, now they feel ripped off.
Apple does respond ... in some way ... with 32gb macbook ...
With Mac Pro it's pray or buy windows ...
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Apple is not in the Pro workstation business any longer. Over 1000 days without an update, still selling 4 year old hardware at the same price, not a peep of a real rumor about the replacement. It's not like they "can't" change it. More likely that they just "won't" change it. Not till all the inventory is used up and moved out of the warehouses.
The minute they hitched their wagon to custom GPU's and decided to lose an industry standard PCI slot for the sake of better design was the turning point for this disaster of a product cycle. They're stuck waiting on ATI, and they seriously underestimated how much GPU processing would take off over the last 4 years (2013 to present), especially for those in 3D and content creation.
If we can look at the new MBP as an indicator of future product decisions, it's likely that the nMP will continue the trend of using soldered in components making it an expensive disposable product. Besides, Phil already said the trash can design was good for 10 years so we already know what it will look like...
The minute they hitched their wagon to custom GPU's and decided to lose an industry standard PCI slot for the sake of better design was the turning point for this disaster of a product cycle. They're stuck waiting on ATI, and they seriously underestimated how much GPU processing would take off over the last 4 years (2013 to present), especially for those in 3D and content creation.
If we can look at the new MBP as an indicator of future product decisions, it's likely that the nMP will continue the trend of using soldered in components making it an expensive disposable product. Besides, Phil already said the trash can design was good for 10 years so we already know what it will look like...
I'd say its a mixed bag, especially if DITs are considered video production professionals. From what i've seen, it is not uncommon for big name lead editors to have heavily customized and one-off workstation solutions that they are personaly involved with making.
Yes, there are also many video folks who never configure their own editing bay, especially at houses that employ fixed setups, but there is almost always a video production engineer who does customize the bays based on project and/or pipeline designs/needs.