What's the point of the MBP when the MBA uses the same chips

[maflynn]

No, not a big deal.

For you maybe, but for others yes a big deal

You couldn't put any RAM in an Apple laptop since 2013.

BUT you can buy an intel Mac with 32GB and that's the point you missed

At the apparent power of the iGPU a more powerful eGPU would be bottlenecked by TB3 anyway.

I use a egpu, and you couldn't be more wrong. While its true EPGUs do not perform the same as an internal discrete GPU, they generally offer much more performance then an integrated GPU. Not having that option means Mac users have less choice and/or options.

I would think that a staff member of Macrumors would actually read their sources. Guess I was expecting too much.

I would think a member of MacRumors would think that someone can post his own opinions, but I guess that's expecting too much

 

[dmccloud]

I'm not understanding the ARM line-up as it stands. Apple is using the exact same chips for all three arm computers

In the past there was differences to justify the purchase, but now you'll be getting the exact same CPU, GPU, memory, and I'd postulate nearly the same performance. Why buy a MBP when I can have a MBA for 300 less? What am I missing? The fact the MBA is fanless and will throttle so it heat will require it to run slower?

The base MBA runs 8 CPU cores and 7 GPU cores in a fanless enclosure, which means that raw performance will be slightly less. Furthermore, passive cooling will require the MBA to either run the M1 at a slower clock or use much more aggressive throttling under load to keep temperatures down. One thing that a lot of people have overlooked is that raw clock speeds were never mentioned for any of the new Macs that were announced. That actually means that each system could have an M1 clocked at a different base speed, which would factor into the relative performance of each machine. While I don't believe that one less GPU core would have a significant impact on the performance of the MBA compared to either the MBP or Mac mini, adjusting the base speed of the processors would have that effect. In fact, I'd say that the real question is whether the new 13" MBP or the new Mac Mini is the faster machine, not whether the MBP and MBA will have comparable performance.

 

[Sanpete]

Why is this thread more than two posts long?

 

[deeddawg]

BUT you can buy an intel Mac with 32GB and that's the point you missed

Remind me, was that an option with the two-port MBPs? Or were they also limited to 16GB on Intel just as they are on ARM?

 

[deeddawg]

Why is this thread more than two posts long?

Because MacRumors.

 

[dmccloud]

For you maybe, but for others yes a big deal


BUT you can buy an intel Mac with 32GB and that's the point you missed



I use a egpu, and you couldn't be more wrong. While its true EPGUs do not perform the same as an internal discrete GPU, they generally offer much more performance then an integrated GPU. Not having that option means Mac users have less choice and/or options.

With unified memory on the SoC itself, you may not need 32GB though. Since the system will not have to duplicate data across the system and GPU RAM, the total amount of RAM in use can drop significantly, especially since both the CPU and GPU can access the data simultaneously. Additionally, a iGPU in the Intel/AMD sense means that the graphics components are accessing system RAM via the I/O bus, which introduces both speed and latency penalties compared to the unified memory in the M1. Apple's GPU has direct access to the RAM on the SoC itself, which means no latency, no bottlenecks at the I/O level. This also would mean that writing to/reading from RAM will be a much faster operation on the M1 than it is on any x86 system. These are all reasons why comparing the M1s approach to that of either Intel or AMD is largely meaningless at this time.

The other thing that I think many people have missed is that the machines Apple announced this week target the consumer market more than the Pro or Prosumer markets (with the possible exception of the Mac Mini). The machines that really target the higher end of the userbase are those that currently run dedicated GPUs (i.e. all iMacs and iMac pros except the base 21", the 16" MacBook Pro, and the Mac Pro), none of which have been updated yet. That will probably come in the form of an M2 processor and could introduce eGPU support at that time.

 

[profdraper]

 

[theluggage]

Possibly you use Docker to provide a Linux/Ubuntu development environment but that is lightweight compared to a VM

Er... Docker for Mac is a VM (yes, Docker itself is containerisation/sandboxing rather than VM but it needs a Linux kernel running in a Linux VM to run on Mac or Windows).

You can absolutely do "web development" with 16GB - or even 8GB - running VS Code and a simple Linux VM, testing in Chrome is no problem. I found 8GB a bit tight when I was using bloaty IDEs like Eclipse or Netbeans - VS Code seems a bit slimmer and I imagine that something like Sublime or Coda would be even more efficient.

...until your web server needs a massive SQL database, until you want Safari Firefox, Chrome, and Edge all running for testing, with maybe Android and Windows VMs as well, plus maybe a desktop Linux...

But, yeah, if you don't know that you need to wrangle multi-gigabyte data files, allocate a shedload of RAM to virtual machines etc. 16GB is probably going to be more than enough... and if you do need more then you probably weren't in the market for a MacBook Air or a 2-port 13" MBP in the first place. When the replacements for the high-end 13", the 16", the 5k iMac etc. come they will have to do better.

The frustration with Apple, though, is that we shouldn't have to be worrying about this. If you buy a PC - or even a 5k iMac or Mac Pro - and think you might need more RAM then it only costs a bit over $100 to buy 32GB of RAM and slap it in alongside what was there already. Apple's $200 for a measly extra 8GB is completely usurious - but that's nothing really to do with Apple Silicon, since that's been their standard rate for years.

Actually, assuming that there really is a speed advantage to having the RAM built into the SoC package, the price is a bit more forgivable than when its a pure mark-up slapped on the same bog standard SODIMMS that you could buy for a fraction of the price elsewhere...

 

[Bandaman]

The 2 MP 1080p laptop camera in the Pixelbook Go (except under low light conditions). So it is possible.

At 13.5 mm, the overall thickness of the Pixelbook is less than the MBP's 15.6 mm. But of course it's the thickness of the top half that matters when it comes to fitting a camera, and I don't know how those compare.

Here's a great laptop webcam comparison video from the WSJ:

Pretty sad when the 10 year old MBP 480p camera looks better than the 2020 Air in most situations.

 

[Gudi]

There is no point to either the Air or the Pro. Without different TDP requirements there is no need for two lineups of MacBook with the same screen size. M1 Air and M1 Pro only exist, because the factories to produce these two types of unibody enclosures already exist. In the future there should only be one kind of MacBook 14-inch and 16-inch.

 

[calstanford]

Not sure if I want to downgrade from an MBP 16" to an MacBook Air or not. it is a Sophies Choice I guess.

I went for it

 

[Kung gu]

BUT you can buy an intel Mac with 32GB and that's the point you missed

umm, the 2-port MBP never had 32gb to begin with...

 

[ww1971]

I'm not understanding the ARM line-up as it stands. Apple is using the exact same chips for all three arm computers

In the past there was differences to justify the purchase, but now you'll be getting the exact same CPU, GPU, memory, and I'd postulate nearly the same performance. Why buy a MBP when I can have a MBA for 300 less? What am I missing? The fact the MBA is fanless and will throttle so it heat will require it to run slower?

the Macbook pro is a better machine for 3D design work and video editing I’d pick the MacBook Pro over MacBook Air.

 

[leman]

The frustration with Apple, though, is that we shouldn't have to be worrying about this. If you buy a PC - or even a 5k iMac or Mac Pro - and think you might need more RAM then it only costs a bit over $100 to buy 32GB of RAM and slap it in alongside what was there already. Apple's $200 for a measly extra 8GB is completely usurious - but that's nothing really to do with Apple Silicon, since that's been their standard rate for years.

Most modern lightweight high-end laptops are not that different. LPDDR is fast and energy efficient, soldered memory has benefits hard to pass on

Actually, assuming that there really is a speed advantage to having the RAM built into the SoC package, the price is a bit more forgivable than when its a pure mark-up slapped on the same bog standard SODIMMS that you could buy for a fraction of the price elsewhere...

My guess is that what Apple uses ends up to be about 50% faster than the regular DDR4 socketed RAM. If you want, you can look at lack of expandability as a price to pay for performance. It is inevitable, really. High-performance processing needs high-bandwidth memory and you can't have it in a portable without tight integration. Workstation desktop can get away with using a lot of DDR modules with multiple channels, but that's not viable on mobile. For the new Mac Pro, I'd expect Apple to be using at least 8-channel DDR5 RAM. Or non-upgradeable HBM.

 

[kamikazeeMC]

Watching the interview on The Tech Chap, the way they limitedly talk about the M1 seems like it’s more of a architecture design rather than a specific SKU, which can be scaled depending on how much power it can be fed and how much heat can be dissipated.

 

[Boil]

For the new Mac Pro, I'd expect Apple to be using at least 8-channel DDR5 RAM. Or non-upgradeable HBM.

I am a strong advocate for HBMnext (formerly HBM3), the more the better...

Wondering if we might see a goodly sized SoC for the Mac Pro, like a Threadripper-sized package...!

32 P cores / 6 E cores / 64 GPU cores / 64 Neural Engine cores / HBMnext options (64GB / 128GB / 256GB)

Maybe they have some method for DDR5 DIMMs (quad-channel, four slots, 512GB maximum) as a secondary RAM, keeping the on-package HBMnext to 64GB...?

 

[theluggage]

Most modern lightweight high-end laptops are not that different. LPDDR is fast and energy efficient, soldered memory has benefits hard to pass on

Sure - this is a non-issue with the Air and 13" MBP where the deal is no different to the previous Intel models and the pricing is still roughly competitive with "comparable" premium PC laptops like the Dell XPS or the MS Surface Laptop. Mind you, that's partly because those products were designed to fit the "ultrabook" market segment that Apple created with the MacBooks...

$200 for an extra 8GB or RAM is still usurious, though - and even if Dell and MS do the same, two wrongs don't make a right. The fact that Apple's RAM price is the same across the range, whether you're getting a 16GB proprietary SoC package instead of an 8GB one or just replacing a bog-standard pair of 4GB SODIMMS with 8GB ones shows that this is purely down to whatever Apple can get away with charging and nothing to do with the actual cost of components. I'd be entirely unsurprised if it turns out that theGB packages are exactly the same as the 16GB ones but with half of the RAM disabled (...the alternative is all the extra logistics of manufacturing two different packages...)

Thing is, in the PC world - and, currently, with the 5k iMac, Intel Mini and Mac Pro - you have a choice of choosing a model with cheap RAM expansion. If Apple take that away when they replace the "pro" models - and instead want $200-per-8GB build-to-order-only - then we have a problem.

 

[polaris20]

So there's less justification (at least to me), for the MBP, since its the same computer

It's the same computer, until you start rendering a file of any sort. Then the active cooling of the MBP will pull ahead, instead of throttling. THis is why I'm going for the MBP.

 

[polaris20]

Can it run windows in bootcamp? Can I put 32GB into the laptop? Is the web cam better? Can this professional laptop run a eGPU? Apple limited the number of TB ports in the ARM mac, where as the intel has more

No, obviously it can't run it in bootcamp, because it's a different architecture now. That's the sacrifice you make, for the increased performance. No, you can't put 32GB of RAM in an entry-level MBP13, just like you couldn't put them in the last entry-level MBP13. All it takes to run an eGPU is driver support - patience. Apple didn't limit the TB ports on this MBP13 any more than it did on the last entry-level MBP13, which also had 2 TB ports.

Sounds like you need to wait for the replacement for the high-end MBP13, and some drivers. Problem solved!

For a MacRumors contributor/staff member, I'd expect you to go a little deeper in your comparisons. Disappointing.

 

[D.T.]

Remind me, was that an option with the two-port MBPs? Or were they also limited to 16GB on Intel just as they are on ARM?

Yep, seems simple. This is an incremental rollout, it's obvious the tier of machine this represents, what it's replacing, and what it's __not__ replacing.

There will be 32GB+ M based machines in the next phase (that replace the 32GB [possible 64GB] configurable machines).

 

[deeddawg]

The fact that Apple's RAM price is the same across the range, whether you're getting a 16GB proprietary SoC package instead of an 8GB one or just replacing a bog-standard pair of 4GB SODIMMS with 8GB ones shows that this is purely down to whatever Apple can get away with charging and nothing to do with the actual cost of components.

Welcome to Product Pricing 101.

With well-differentiated non-commodity goods, cost is rarely a governing factor in setting the price. Consumer willingness to pay is usually the largest consideration, coupled with product positioning vs other product line offerings.

This is common practice across many industries. We may wish it were otherwise, but so long as one is unwilling to abandon the platform and move to a highly substitutable commodity space (such as linux on build-your-own desktops), it is the reality we live with.

 

[bluecoast]

Photo editors will likely be fine with the MBA.

Video editors will likely need the MBP.

 

[dragonfly1]

Another difference between the MBA and the MBP is the SSD speed!

MBA M1:
2x faster than Intel MBA (1.2GHz quad-core Intel Core i7, see note 16) = 2 x reads ~1207 MB/s and writes ~1275 MB/s. Thus, about 2.4 GB/s read and 2.5 GB/s write.

MBP M1:
3.3 GB/s read, write speed not reported on Apple's website but I assume about the same as read.