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kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,103
8,658
Any place but here or there....
Thermals should go without saying but there was a calculation based on a chart in an Anandtech review - referenced in a Linus Tech Tips video, posits that each high performance core in an A12z will pull approx 4-4.3w sustained based on power draw. 4 of those would be roughly 16w - which would fit into a MBA style enclosure if you pre-suppose the low power cores will be called into action to reduce the heat output when the workload drops back (or is throttled).

If you assume that the existing Mac mini case can dissipate 65w then, let's for the sake of pure argument, say that a Mini could easily handle a A14 desktop class CPU with 12 high performance cores (and 4 low performance cores) as per recent rumours.

The only downside would be the likely relative lack of single threaded performance that affects any ARM CPU at the moment.

Based on these numbers, why wouldn't we see 4+4 CPU cores for MBA, 6+4 for 13" MBP replacement, and 12+4 for 16" replacement. And the 12+4 would go into the Mac mini.

If there's to be a 12" MacBook replacement they could put a straight up A14 from the iPhone 12 in that - 2+4 cores.
Obviously, not this knowledgeable.^ Thanks for explaining that.

My numerous bad experiences with iPads (the A chips heat up so much the chassis’ passive cooling fails, and touch irresponsiveness sets in) is my one hesitation about Apple‘s Silicon, thermals and thin designs. I hope they work on cooling solutions.
 

jasnw

macrumors 65816
Nov 15, 2013
1,032
1,134
Seattle Area (NOT! Microsoft)
I think my solution will be to buy an ARM Mini and an Intel System76 Meerkat and run them in parallel. I work from home, and I want to stay Apple for my home integration but have work-related needs that are better fit by an Intel/Linux environment. I've been leaning this way for a while now anyway (pre-ARM), and this might move the needle.

If we were talking about a 2nd-generation ARM system and 3rd-generation (at least!) ARM macOS my decision might be different. I just can't take two to three years of fighting both my work and my tools while Apple fiddles around getting this right. If I didn't have the need to stay in the Apple cocoon for my home integration I'd be jumping straight to Linux on a Meerkat, which I see as a relatively stable platform at present. And then there's the fear of Apple moving to make the non-Pro desktop just a giant iPhone without the phone part.
 
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hey_augie

macrumors newbie
May 14, 2020
25
21
If the ARM mini is at all appealing I will like trade in / sell my MBA 2020 i5 and get an ARM mini + low end / iPAD air. I got the MBA since i needed a new machine and it was the best for me earlier this year, but after adding a 27" 4k monitor due to working from home (i use it with my work Lenovo laptop mostly now) I wouldn't mind moving to mini + ipad.
 
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MevetS

Cancelled
Dec 27, 2018
374
303
This past December I got a 2018 Mini to replace a 2010 MacPro. And I'm happy with the change. I can see getting an AS Mini and using the 2018 Mini to run apps that haven't been/won't be available as ARM versions. I also run Windows 10 via Parallels, so I could see transitioning the 2018 Mini to a Windows machine one day as well.

Now, I'd rather have a 'MacPro Jr.', a Mac that his expandable/upgradable without the ginormous price tag. :)

Barring that, the Mini, expandable via Thunderbolt, is appealing. And I'll no doubt get one some day.
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,173
Stargate Command
Now, I'd rather have a 'MacPro Jr.', a Mac that his expandable/upgradable without the ginormous price tag. :)

Barring that, the Mini, expandable via Thunderbolt, is appealing. And I'll no doubt get one some day.

Ah, the unicorn of Macs, the xMac...!

With the switch to Apple Silicon & the eventual inclusion of assorted specialized DSPs & ASICs & such, I could see a return of the Cube...


Mac Pro Cube - starting at US$3,999.00

48 P cores / 4 E cores / 96 GPU cores - CPU / GPU Chiplets & RAM on interposer / package design
HBM3 Unified Memory Architecture - 128GB / 256GB / 512GB
NVMe RAID 0 (dual NAND blades) 4TB / 8TB / 16TB
Four USB4 (TB3) ports
Four TB4 ports
Two 10Gb Ethernet ports
One HDMI 2.1 port
One MPX-C slot (for use with GPGPU expansion card)
 
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matrix07

macrumors G3
Jun 24, 2010
8,226
4,895
Plex doesn't need a whole lot of processing power.. hell, even my Synology NAS box runs plex, and it's a core duo processor with a couple gigs of RAM.

I have many full HD files that needs decoding on the fly though.
 

Ursadorable

macrumors 6502a
Jul 9, 2013
673
924
The Frozen North
I have many full HD files that needs decoding on the fly though.

The CPU that Plex runs on doesn't do decoding though for playback. As far as playback decoding goes, that can be done even on a low power CPU like the one on Raspberry Pi for instance.

Decoding video isn't where you need the power, it's encoding the huge source material.
 

matrix07

macrumors G3
Jun 24, 2010
8,226
4,895
The CPU that Plex runs on doesn't do decoding though for playback. As far as playback decoding goes, that can be done even on a low power CPU like the one on Raspberry Pi for instance.

Decoding video isn't where you need the power, it's encoding the huge source material.

Even my 2013 Mac mini struggled at times so yeah it seems to need CPU power.
If it doesn’t need, why my Mac mini CPU run at 100% on it?

And we’re talking about 1080p files here, not 4K which I have many.
 

matrix07

macrumors G3
Jun 24, 2010
8,226
4,895
No such thing as a 2013 Mini, just 2012 and 2014. In 2014, Apple eliminated the quad-core option so the top 2012 quad Mini is actually 50% faster than the fastest 2014 Mini.

Must be 2012 then since I bought it on 2013.
 

mcnallym

macrumors 65816
Oct 28, 2008
1,210
938
I have a min 2018 used basically as iTunes server. Headless with a fit4k on the hdmi port.
then have a hack i9900k with samsung 1tb 970 evo and a sapphire rx580 pulse so close to an iMac 19,1 as can. However i9900k has better cooling 360 water rad so can be run better then in iMac chassis.
hack is used for video editing.

now with chips like the T2 and the afterburner card then Apple shown can do chips for specific tasks.

what i would like would be an arm Mac fitted with those types of chips as well.

could drop to 1 machine. Efficient cores used when just used for iTunes serving. Performance cores when video editin. Encoding/decoding handled by specific chips.

Now something like that should be able to fit into a mini style enclosure.
i believe that current setup should last me long enough to get to where arm is suitably polished. My 2018 replaced a 2009 mini and the hack replaced a hexacore Mac Pro 2010 that bought in 2013 secondhand so belive this setup should let new systems establish and mature befor transition.

software I use is

handbrake - uses videotoolbox for encoding so hardware assist there so shouldn’t take much to port.
liitle app factory ripit - not been developed further but does the job on Intel. DVD ripping so can replace.
makemkv - used for blu ray ripping,
fcp x - already running on arm

so whilst dvd ripping will have to be replaced then that not a problem.

so quite looking forward to seeing what Apple do with the mini and Mac range in general.
 

Pressure

macrumors 603
May 30, 2006
5,178
1,544
Denmark
I have a min 2018 used basically as iTunes server. Headless with a fit4k on the hdmi port.
then have a hack i9900k with samsung 1tb 970 evo and a sapphire rx580 pulse so close to an iMac 19,1 as can. However i9900k has better cooling 360 water rad so can be run better then in iMac chassis.
hack is used for video editing.

now with chips like the T2 and the afterburner card then Apple shown can do chips for specific tasks.

what i would like would be an arm Mac fitted with those types of chips as well.

could drop to 1 machine. Efficient cores used when just used for iTunes serving. Performance cores when video editin. Encoding/decoding handled by specific chips.

Now something like that should be able to fit into a mini style enclosure.
i believe that current setup should last me long enough to get to where arm is suitably polished. My 2018 replaced a 2009 mini and the hack replaced a hexacore Mac Pro 2010 that bought in 2013 secondhand so belive this setup should let new systems establish and mature befor transition.

software I use is

handbrake - uses videotoolbox for encoding so hardware assist there so shouldn’t take much to port.
liitle app factory ripit - not been developed further but does the job on Intel. DVD ripping so can replace.
makemkv - used for blu ray ripping,
fcp x - already running on arm

so whilst dvd ripping will have to be replaced then that not a problem.

so quite looking forward to seeing what Apple do with the mini and Mac range in general.

There is nothing stopping you from using both the High-efficiency and High-performance cores at the same time if needed.

It isn't one or the other. Grand Central Dispatch will automatically schedule the workload based on available resources.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
Isn't this showing that the Core 9900K and Ryzen 3900X are both about 15% faster than the A13? Not sure if this is single core or multi-core though.

I'm fairly sure that's single core. The Intel parts have a higher single core clock rate, but once you go to 2+ cores, the 3rd and 4th generation Ryzen parts pull ahead unless you put a GeForce RTX 2070 or RTX 2080 in the machines.
 

pers0n

macrumors regular
Mar 5, 2014
246
143
I want the ARM Mac Mini to have upgradable RAM and Storage, but I know that will not happen. :(

I hope I'm wrong though, I personally don't care if they come out with a ARM Mac Nano for those that want everything glued together in an un-upgradable iphone-size form factor.
 

hey_augie

macrumors newbie
May 14, 2020
25
21
I want the ARM Mac Mini to have upgradable RAM and Storage, but I know that will not happen. :(

I hope I'm wrong though, I personally don't care if they come out with a ARM Mac Nano for those that want everything glued together in an un-upgradable iphone-size form factor.


Big same - it would be pretty lame but not shocking if the ram / storage are not upgradable. I'd be more pissed about the RAM. External storage is fine with me.
 

David Hassholehoff

macrumors regular
Jul 26, 2020
122
90
The beach
Well, given that they went from soldered in RAM to sort of user-upgradable RAM in the recent makeover, I'm actually hopeful on this.

I'm looking forward to buying my first mini.
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,173
Stargate Command
I want the ARM Mac Mini to have upgradable RAM and Storage, but I know that will not happen. :(

I hope I'm wrong though, I personally don't care if they come out with a ARM Mac Nano for those that want everything glued together in an un-upgradable iphone-size form factor.

I do not understand this whole "iPhone-sized form factor...

The reason the iPhone is the form factor it is, is because it has an attached display...

If anything, a Mac nano would take advantage of the existing AppleTV form factor...
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
I want the ARM Mac Mini to have upgradable RAM and Storage, but I know that will not happen. :(

Pretty good chance the RAM will still be upgradable. Soldering RAM to the logic board is just space inefficient than using so-DIMMs. Getting the RAM into the Mini effecdtively is a 3D , not 2D, problem. Along long as Apple is frozen on the case dimensions for the Mini ( e.g., tons of server , co-location deployments with custom racks mount points ) then soldering the RAM isn't going to buy much. Especially if trying to also solder the SSD down (and keep the power supply internal) . Pragmatically it will be pretty hard to do both inside the Mini enclosure.

The Mini could get a "module" T2 implementation that the iMac Pro and Mac Pro got. Again if the case was allowed to grow an inch (or so) that would be more tractable in the volume allotted. The T2 (and the embedded SSD ) controller would still be soldered to the board so it would not be "free market" upgrades. Would have to wipe the SSD clean to get an "upgrade' (and need another Mac to pair the new Apple provided module to the T2's SSD controller). The bigger fan in the current Mini is soaking up z-height would need to leverage to put in a "module" . If radically cooler then could shrink that. And if case were incrementally bigger could fit module to outside the footprint of the fan. ( the whole premise of the Mini cooled hard 90 degrees air flow turns is a contributing factor here. )

Apple is pretty close now.

NdgXsdWjsCdeHFmG.medium


The T2 is in yellow. the NAND flash chips are in orange. CPU package in red ( and I/O chipsset (PCH) is light green). PMIC is magenta-like color close next to T2. If the CPU package was smaller could shift the PMIC out of that bottom edge line. The T2 probably moves inside the CPU package so probably get some net board space back.. Put a module header where the bottom NAND package is (orange ) and then let the module span over a bit past where the PMIC is.

Making the CPU package is going to be easier if dumping stuff that is there now. Drop x8 or the x16 pins for hooking up to a discrete GPU that Apple isn't going to use. if put the PCH and CPU into one multiple chip package ( it would perhaps grow slightly but would get a net decrease on overall board. ).

Another path is to move the coin battery and fit the "SSD Module" along the right edge above. (and then already mostly out of the fan's way).

if Apple is designing a SoC specifically for the Mini they could pretty easily solve most of these layout problems of getting a module in there. Previous Mini's had two 2.5" HDDs, there is enough internal space if use it well.


I hope I'm wrong though, I personally don't care if they come out with a ARM Mac Nano for those that want everything glued together in an un-upgradable iphone-size form factor.

More than a few Minis get deployed as small servers. I think Apple is going more than a little myopic if try to push iPad metrics onto the Mini. It seriously doesn't need to get any smaller. I can see the inertia from more than few customers of it not getting any bigger.

Apple could make a more affordable variant by just soldering everything down. lower powered SoC to where about no fan and fewer ports. Wouldn't have to be smaller.... just more affordable ( get back to the $500-600 range ).
 

Kostask

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2020
230
104
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
There are a lot of Mac Minis being used as servers in rack enclosures. That is both good and bad. The good is that it keeps the Mac Mini very viable for Apple. The bad is that Apple must keep in mind that there is a lot of rack mount hardware for the exisiting Mini case. More than likely, the case size for the Mini isn't going to change, or Apple may have to deal with a fall off in sales until there is new rack mount hardware for the new case size.

Alex Lindsay of MacBreak Weekly said that his company buys Mac Minis by the dozen to be used as servers. All rack mount, all using the exact same rack hardware as the previous two generations.

Referring to the diagram of the 2018 Mini on the iFixit web page:

1. T2 chip goes inside the SoC;
2. PCH goes inside the SoC;
3. More than likely, the PMIC goes inside the SoC;
4. Wifi/Bluetooth and maybe Ethernet controllers go inside the SoC (depends on if Apple goes wireless only);
5. So does the first 16GB of RAM, anything more will be soldered on or from an SODIMM slot (1 only).

At least half the board real estate shown will not have components on it. There will be a lot of space for SODIMM slots or M.2/SSD connectors. It just really depends on if Apple wants to put them on there. Hard drives will not be available.
 

MisterMe

macrumors G4
Jul 17, 2002
10,709
69
USA
You can bet your ass they will make sure every Arm Mac will look different than their Intel counterpart. It's wasted brand and marketing recognition if not. The design language is Apple's "Intel Inside" sticker.

They have been working on the transition for years and years.
That is not how Apple rolls. This is not Apple's first rodeo. We need look no further than Apple's last processor transition 15 years ago. The first Intel-based MacBook looked a lot like the PPC-based PowerBook G4 that it replaced. The first Intel-based iMac looked a lot like the PPC-based iMac that it replaced. And then there is the Intel-based Mac Pro. The only aesthetic difference between it and the PPC-based Power Mac G5 that it replaced is that the Mac Pro had two optical drives whereas the Power Mac G5 had one.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
There are a lot of Mac Minis being used as servers in rack enclosures. That is both good and bad. ... More than likely, the case size for the Mini isn't going to change,

Which means some aspects of the below has problems.

Referring to the diagram of the 2018 Mini on the iFixit web page:

1. T2 chip goes inside the SoC;
2. PCH goes inside the SoC;
3. More than likely, the PMIC goes inside the SoC;
4. Wifi/Bluetooth and maybe Ethernet controllers go inside the SoC (depends on if Apple goes wireless only);
5. So does the first 16GB of RAM, anything more will be soldered on or from an SODIMM slot (1 only).

Servers that are wireless only? Not going to work. Those same deployments driving keeping the case the same are also going to heavily drive that the Ethernet port stays. ( perhaps even pressure to have two). Zero is probably disconnected from reality.

RAM Memory in the SoC? Probably not.

First,
Not really on iPad 11



WgkFM4qTwDa42kDf.medium

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad+Pro+11-Inch+Teardown/115457

Yellow versus Red highlights above. I can see where a bit on slippery slope on presumption because placed very close, but isn't. Nor does it scale. Current Mac Mini goes from 8 to 64GB . The next gen should scale to 128GB , but minitially needs to go to 64GB. ( also that apple is still going to slap giant mark ups on the RAM component costs so if shift to super high density RAM chips then won't be able to hold the current prices. And fewer are going to pay for even more expensive Minis. ) .


Similarly older iPad Pro

Eyjc4QcatyPND2Bk.medium

Orange ( RAM) Red (SoC).

for the larger , higher clocked A series SoC, Apple hasn't historically put the RAM inside the SoC. Apple Silicon for the Mac is probably going to be clocked higher (higher TDP) and be larger still.

Even if did it the notion that would add other RAM elsewhere on the board to go past 16GB doesn't make much sense. You don't want two substantively different trace lengths between the "banks" of RAM your memory controller(s) is accessing. Usually you want the RAM chips symmetric if serving at the same "level" . On the laptops they are grouped in a block near each other.


PMIC probably won't integrate now either. Apple didn't buy Dialog's PMIC business until late 2018. Any Apple silicon chips rolling out in the next 6-10 months probably was already well into design by then. Pushing it into a multiple chip module probably wouldn't help all that much space wise ( or thermal wise).

Wi-Fi + Bluetooth. The iPhones don't do it. There is even more room in the desktops.



The PCH is slippery slope. Is Apple going to step up and do USB 4 / TB v4 intergration or 'punt' that to some third party?


At least half the board real estate shown will not have components on it.

There is something akin to conservation of mass here. You can chuck gobs and gobs of duties into ta SoC , but that is not necessarily going to make it smaller. Yes Apple is getting a process shrink but guess what their CPU+GPU core has to do more.

Need to drive 4-6 displays. (versus 1-2 for an iPad Pro). And enough GPU "horsepower" so that when driving that things don't start not to keep up. Similarly Much bigger I/O bandwidth issues to wrangle (PCI-e v3 lanes off to more than just a custom SSD. ). The system cache is probably going to substantively grow once add lots more compute units sharing the same unified memory resource. Better Virtualization support . etc.


[ I suspect the Developer Transition Kit with a A12Z is a much smaller board than the Mac Mini 2018's board. But DTK doesn't do I/O wise what the Mini does either. Similar with storage capacity in RAM or at rest storage. ]



There will be a lot of space for SODIMM slots or M.2/SSD connectors. It just really depends on if Apple wants to put them on there. Hard drives will not be available.

There isn't going to be any M.2 connectors any more than there will be SATA connectors.


Apple certainly could blow gobs of space to solder the limited RAM onto the board, but the Mini could be a more competitive system if they didn't. (e.g., bigger or discrete GPU. )
 
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T'hain Esh Kelch

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2001
6,472
7,405
Denmark
The first Intel-based MacBook looked a lot like the PPC-based PowerBook G4 that it replaced. The first Intel-based iMac looked a lot like the PPC-based iMac that it replaced.
This is also the reason I will likely wait for a 2. generation AS SOC Mac Mini. Apples 2nd generation products are always much improved over the first generation models. They are often much more future proof.
 

GalileoSeven

macrumors 6502a
Jan 3, 2015
601
830
Too expensive as an HTPC or game console. Apple set course on a different direction.

Apple killed Front Row and removed the IR receiver from the Mac mini 2018. Unlike the Mac mini 2010, the 2018 version did not include an IR remote.

Personally, I think the traditional model of PC-TV convergence is dead. This was the buzzword in 1999 when TiVo made a splash. 20+ years later, it never got a foothold and the world changed.

Now home theater exists with a $50 Roku Streaming Stick+. Or if you want more features and control, a $99 Raspberry Pi kit running Kodi. Even AirPlay has made it to some smart TVs.

True. The advent of streaming media and the devices that play/control/manage it all has rendered HTPCs somewhat irrelevant.

A price drop back down to mid-2011 levels (or close to them) is the only thing that could set it apart for me, and really, set it apart in the marketplace overall.

With current pricing and assuming everything will be soldered in, if you factor in the cost of a comparable 4K/5K monitor, you're shelling out just as much as an iMac (if you decide to go with a normal monitor and spend on upgrades like a better CPU, more RAM, bigger SSD etc etc, it would be much the same).

If they didn't want to slash the price of the current mini, they couldr bump up the specs of the current two SKUs to make room for a lower-priced entry level option ($800 and 'entry level' don't exactly mesh in my mind.....$500-600 do though).
 
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