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Renzatic

Suspended
If I'm a shareholder and I'm trying to decide where to park my cash, I can tell you that I would park it in a company that will be a responsible steward of my cash. Throwing money at products that have no chance at all of becoming a viable product is not an example of responsible management.

I think it's this attitude that's one of the biggest problems with the financial world today. There is no long game for anyone anymore. No long term investments. They want immediate returns, and they want them now.

You might see pure research as being irresponsible with your money because it isn't producing something tangible with your investment. To a small time investor, it's a mysterious non-guarantee that might net them millions later, or maybe nothing at all.

What you're failing to realize is that pure research is the very reason why you have LCD screens, capacitive multitouch, wifi, cell phones, and all that other good stuff we all take for granted these days. Without someone blowing a bit of their revenue on just playing around with neat ideas, it likely would've taken far longer for these ideas to come onto the scene.

If you want a working example, I'm fairly sure capacitive touchscreens have been bouncing around since at least the late 80's. We didn't see the idea hit it big until 2007. Would you say the money spent on researching it back in the 80's was an irresponsible waste of money?

See, Apple doesn't invest into blue sky research. They're more focused on taking ideas developed elsewhere, polishing them, and working them into products they can sell. There's nothing wrong with that. It works for Apple, and it works for their investors. You need a company like Apple, creating something usable out of other peoples raw ideas and then iterating upon it. But their focus on honing existing tech means they're far less likely to produce the next truly groundbreaking big thing. Whereas MS, who blows a fraction of their revenue on giving a bunch of smart dudes and chicks money to think of...whatever, is more likely to introduce a new technology that brings us into THE GOLDEN AGE OF TOMORROW!

Yeah, I had to get corny there at the end there.

Anyway, long story short.

Blue sky R&D - raw future technology.
Apple style R&D - good fun stuff made out of that raw technology.

Disdain it all you want, Apple wouldn't be around without someone else doing raw research. And we wouldn't be using the ideas created through raw research without Apple mixing them up into some good.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
What you're failing to realize is that pure research is the very reason why you have LCD screens, capacitive multitouch, wifi, cell phones, and all that other good stuff we all take for granted these days. Without someone blowing a bit of their revenue on just playing around with neat ideas, it likely would've taken far longer for these ideas to come onto the scene.

If you want a working example, I'm fairly sure capacitive touchscreens have been bouncing around since at least the late 80's. We didn't see the idea hit it big until 2007. Would you say the money spent on researching it back in the 80's was an irresponsible waste of money?
Is this where the obligatory mention of Xerox PARC comes in?

A big chunk of the history of computer animation (including Pixar), computer visual effects, and nonlinear editing all happened because of the Lucasfilm Computer Division and some pie-in-the-sky ideas that had no guarantee of coming to fruition let alone paying off.
 

vvswarup

macrumors 6502a
Jul 21, 2010
544
225
I think it's this attitude that's one of the biggest problems with the financial world today. There is no long game for anyone anymore. No long term investments. They want immediate returns, and they want them now.

You might see pure research as being irresponsible with your money because it isn't producing something tangible with your investment. To a small time investor, it's a mysterious non-guarantee that might net them millions later, or maybe nothing at all.

What you're failing to realize is that pure research is the very reason why you have LCD screens, capacitive multitouch, wifi, cell phones, and all that other good stuff we all take for granted these days. Without someone blowing a bit of their revenue on just playing around with neat ideas, it likely would've taken far longer for these ideas to come onto the scene.

If you want a working example, I'm fairly sure capacitive touchscreens have been bouncing around since at least the late 80's. We didn't see the idea hit it big until 2007. Would you say the money spent on researching it back in the 80's was an irresponsible waste of money?

See, Apple doesn't invest into blue sky research. They're more focused on taking ideas developed elsewhere, polishing them, and working them into products they can sell. There's nothing wrong with that. It works for Apple, and it works for their investors. You need a company like Apple, creating something usable out of other peoples raw ideas and then iterating upon it. But their focus on honing existing tech means they're far less likely to produce the next truly groundbreaking big thing. Whereas MS, who blows a fraction of their revenue on giving a bunch of smart dudes and chicks money to think of...whatever, is more likely to introduce a new technology that brings us into THE GOLDEN AGE OF TOMORROW!

Yeah, I had to get corny there at the end there.

Anyway, long story short.

Blue sky R&D - raw future technology.
Apple style R&D - good fun stuff made out of that raw technology.

Disdain it all you want, Apple wouldn't be around without someone else doing raw research. And we wouldn't be using the ideas created through raw research without Apple mixing them up into some good.

I'm not disdaining anything. I am merely objecting to the claim that Microsoft does that pure research out of some altruistic intention of benefiting mankind. I find such a claim to be hugely asinine.
 

roadbloc

macrumors G3
Aug 24, 2009
8,784
215
UK
Apple spends $2 billion a year on R&D to generate $130 billion revenue.
Microsoft spends $9 billion a year on R&D to generate $70 billion revenue.

Everything Apple tries in the last decade has turned into a monster hit(iPod, iPhone, iMacs, iPad). Microsoft has no NEW products in the last decade that are monster hits. Only the legacy monopolies(Windows, Office, Visual Studio) continue raking in the monster profits. Everything else(Bing, XBox, Zune, Windows Phone, Courier, etc..) gets funded from those legacy profits.

Bottom line - Apple knows how to nip bad designs in the bud EARLY to prevent huge operating expenses. By the time they get to market with a product, it's guaranteed HUGE success. Microsoft just tries a bunch of bad ideas and hopes 1 sticks to the all(XBox 360 with XBL).

You've changed your mind again!? Last thread I saw by you, you were bigging up Microsoft. :confused:
 

charlieegan3

macrumors 68020
Feb 16, 2012
2,394
17
U.K
I think PC gaming is overrated. The mobile gaming profits are far bigger now and that's where Apple is. Just wait until Infinity Blade: Dungeons comes out. I think we can agree that Microsoft is dead, baby dead.

Normally when I play games the profit margin of the format is irrelevant - but maybe that's just me.
 

boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
6,382
7,628
Normally when I play games the profit margin of the format is irrelevant - but maybe that's just me.

Agreed. I couldn't care less what they make in terms of profit. I want a good game, the vast majority of which are found on consoles or Windows, not mobile devices.
 

decafjava

macrumors 603
Feb 7, 2011
5,503
8,014
Geneva
I think PC gaming is overrated. The mobile gaming profits are far bigger now and that's where Apple is. Just wait until Infinity Blade: Dungeons comes out. I think we can agree that Microsoft is dead, baby dead.

BS I am a big fan of ios gaming but nothing I have played matches the hardcore sims or strategy games I play on PC - thanks mainly to the modding community. Yea there are very good deep games on ios (I usually argue for ios gaming agaisnt the haters here btw) but not as many on PC which beats both mobile and console gaming.

As for the rest of your posts-dude Apple including Steve has made many missteps too...other have mentioned what.

----------

you've changed your mind again!? Last thread i saw by you, you were bigging up microsoft. :confused:

:d qft.
 

TSE

macrumors 601
Jun 25, 2007
4,025
3,531
St. Paul, Minnesota
I'm an Apple fan but it is only fair to admit that Xbox was visionary. No more fighting directx and video drivers to get a game up and running. Xbox games just worked but what was running inside was just another flavor of a product MS already owned: Windows. MS poured money into xbox for years before it finally turned the corner and became profitable. But it did become profitable enough that MS is starting to call themselves a "devices" company when as of today the only device you can buy from them is an Xbox.

Another visionary Microsoft product was Kinect. I'd really like to see Apple license Kinect. Since they have MS licensing things from Apple for WP8 along with an anti-cloning agreement, why not license Kinect? It would be a great addition to innovations Apple already has like multitouch. Apple TV really should license kinect to allow gestures to control movie playback, menus, etc. I suspect Apple is on the verge of bring ATV out of "hobby" status and something like gesture recognition could make it even better.

Apple actually had Halo before MS swooped in and bought the thing. Apple needs to be more proactive in pursuing other companies' technologies that can strengthen either Apple's products.

Agree with this completely.

Microsoft stayed on it's laurels (Windows and Office) a little too long for awhile but there is no doubt that Xbox + Kinect is a gigantic winner. Not only has Microsoft won the console gaming wars this generation, but they also set themselves up for the home theatre market with Xbox + Kinect, a wide open market at this point which I wouldn't be surprised if Apple tried getting into within 3 years.

I also think Windows 8 is going to be a flop, but I think Lion and Mountain Lion are too in a lot of ways. They are just awkward transitional OSes to where mainstream computing is going to be in 3-4 years. What I do like about W8 though is it's showing that Microsoft is willing to take risks, innovate without copying Apple *cough* Google *cough*, and it shows that Microsoft realizes that Windows the way it has been for the past 18 years isn't sustainable in a market moving so quickly.
 

smoledman

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 17, 2011
1,943
364
Agree with this completely.

Microsoft stayed on it's laurels (Windows and Office) a little too long for awhile but there is no doubt that Xbox + Kinect is a gigantic winner. Not only has Microsoft won the console gaming wars this generation, but they also set themselves up for the home theatre market with Xbox + Kinect, a wide open market at this point which I wouldn't be surprised if Apple tried getting into within 3 years.

I also think Windows 8 is going to be a flop, but I think Lion and Mountain Lion are too in a lot of ways. They are just awkward transitional OSes to where mainstream computing is going to be in 3-4 years. What I do like about W8 though is it's showing that Microsoft is willing to take risks, innovate without copying Apple *cough* Google *cough*, and it shows that Microsoft realizes that Windows the way it has been for the past 18 years isn't sustainable in a market moving so quickly.

Yes one thing I'll grant is Windows 8 is a bold risk, I've never seen anything like it. of course it will flop like WebOS.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
Yes one thing I'll grant is Windows 8 is a bold risk, I've never seen anything like it. of course it will flop like WebOS.
Windows 8 will flop because the hardware running it will be under whelming and late to market...?

Given similar hardware I'd rather have a WebOS phone than an iOS or Android phone. WebOS was a great OS (in many ways it still makes iOS feel clunky and dated) Palm just didn't have the resources to support it hardware-wise and HP didn't have any clue what to do with it once they acquired it.
 

smoledman

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 17, 2011
1,943
364
Windows 8 will flop because the hardware running it will be under whelming and late to market...?

Given similar hardware I'd rather have a WebOS phone than an iOS or Android phone. WebOS was a great OS (in many ways it still makes iOS feel clunky and dated) Palm just didn't have the resources to support it hardware-wise and HP didn't have any clue what to do with it once they acquired it.

If WebOS is so visionary they should have had in 2007. Let's face it, Apple was the one who blew everything up.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
If WebOS is so visionary they should have had in 2007.
That doesn't make any sense at all and no one is denying that the iPhone ignited the consumer smartphone fire.

With WebOS Palm did what is usually Apple's strength in that they looked at what was already on the market and improved upon it. Going from WebOS to iOS felt like going from an OS that was born to be a mobile OS to an OS that was a hybrid between a desktop OS and a mobile OS. For example, the UI in WebOS is much more swipe/touch-based than the UI in iOS which has lots of little buttons for navigation, editing, etc., that feel like a desktop GUI holdovers. The hardware in the iPhone 4s was certainly better than the hardware in Palm Pre it replaced but I was, and still am, amazed at how well WebOS 1.4.5 (the version on my old Pre) compares to iOS 5 (haven't messed w/6 yet).
 

G51989

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2012
2,530
10
NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
Apple spends $2 billion a year on R&D to generate $130 billion revenue.
Microsoft spends $9 billion a year on R&D to generate $70 billion revenue.

Everything Apple tries in the last decade has turned into a monster hit(iPod, iPhone, iMacs, iPad). Microsoft has no NEW products in the last decade that are monster hits. Only the legacy monopolies(Windows, Office, Visual Studio) continue raking in the monster profits. Everything else(Bing, XBox, Zune, Windows Phone, Courier, etc..) gets funded from those legacy profits.

Bottom line - Apple knows how to nip bad designs in the bud EARLY to prevent huge operating expenses. By the time they get to market with a product, it's guaranteed HUGE success. Microsoft just tries a bunch of bad ideas and hopes 1 sticks to the all(XBox 360 with XBL).

Bad comparison.

Microsoft is in the following markets:

PC Gaming
Console Gaming
Enterprise
Business
Email
Search
Mobile Devices
Phones
Software/hardware research
Celluar Research
University Grade research
They run a bunch of Hardware and Software research labs as well
their charity donations are nosutiry high

Apple is in the following markets:

Macs, no R&D required. Intel, and ATi do all the R&D,Apple puts it in a pretty case.
iToys, very little R&D required.

I dont care about any company, because it'd be stupid if I did. But Apple contributes 0% to tech standards, they never have. And they never will. I can't think of one thing they " invented ". I dont' dislike them, but they just plain don't contribute. Its a fact. Not an opinion.

And don't say multitouch, that;s been around snice the 80s, Navy ships in the 80s had multi touch weapons screens, about 30 years before the iPhone :p The Microsoft Tablet had multi touch 6 years before, and it had co op computing, something which Apple has yet to do.

And thats it.
 
Last edited:

smoledman

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 17, 2011
1,943
364
I dont care about any company, because it'd be stupid if I did. But Apple contributes 0% to tech standards, they never have. And they never will. I can't think of one thing they " invented ". I dont' dislike them, but they just plain don't contribute. Its a fact. Not an opinion.

And don't say multitouch, that;s been around snice the 80s, Navy ships in the 80s had multi touch weapons screens, about 30 years before the iPhone :p The Microsoft Tablet had multi touch 6 years before, and it had co op computing, something which Apple has yet to do.

And thats it.

Apple invented the modern smartphone(the whole package) with the appstore. Sure they don't invent wireless standards(Bluetooth, NFC, WiFi, LTE) or even multi-touch(they bought FingerWorks for that). What Apple does it provide the most kick-ass integrated experience of technology on the market. You need to think broader in terms of what an "invention" means in 2012.

Also how does Apple not perform R&D on Macs and iDevices? What about OS X and iOS? What about AirPlay & Mirroring? What about iMessage? MagSafe connector for Macs back in 2007? The first to do aluminum unibody laptops? Even now nobody can make an AIO like the iMac. Even now, the iPhone 5 is considered the best industrial design of any smartphone. For the iPhone 5 camera they use a sapphire crystal because it's more durable then anything the used before.

My god!

----------

BTW, looking at the MS Surface I think for the first time Microsoft might "get it". Looking how their design team talked about iterating through the kickstand 100s of times until they got the right acoustic is the kind of fanatical perfectionism you'd expect from Johnny Ive. So maybe he's rubbed off on other companies.
 

roxxette

macrumors 68000
Aug 9, 2011
1,507
0
That's not much of a response.

What did you expect ? A insult or the usual "fanboy" comment ? :)

Your calling apple superior to microsoft yet microsoft owns apple in the field they compete :eek: surface not out yet and till these date no words on microsoft building there own phones.
 

smoledman

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 17, 2011
1,943
364
What did you expect ? A insult or the usual "fanboy" comment ? :)

Your calling apple superior to microsoft yet microsoft owns apple in the field they compete :eek: surface not out yet and till these date no words on microsoft building there own phones.

Cash:

Apple - $125 billion
Microsoft - $63 billion

who owns whom?
 

roxxette

macrumors 68000
Aug 9, 2011
1,507
0
Cash:

Apple - $125 billion
Microsoft - $63 billion

who owns whom?

Windows: 85 million units, or 40% market share
Android: 74 million units, or 35% market share (fragmented among several different variants, but most apps can be made compatible with most Android devices with a little extra work)
iOS: 47 million units, or 22% market share
Mac OS X: 4 million units, or 2% market share.
 

roxxette

macrumors 68000
Aug 9, 2011
1,507
0
Again you underestimate Microsoft lol i dont understand what is your obsession with companys money :)
 

thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,234
3,483
Pennsylvania
Knowing Apple, they have something even better then Kinect coming out on the iTV in 2013. Probably for 1/3 the cost of development too.
Good luck getting an Apple case for $33, let alone an Apple branded Kinect.

Apple invented the modern smartphone(the whole package) with the appstore. Sure they don't invent wireless standards(Bluetooth, NFC, WiFi, LTE) or even multi-touch(they bought FingerWorks for that). What Apple does it provide the most kick-ass integrated experience of technology on the market. You need to think broader in terms of what an "invention" means in 2012.

Also how does Apple not perform R&D on Macs and iDevices? What about OS X and iOS? What about AirPlay & Mirroring? What about iMessage? MagSafe connector for Macs back in 2007? The first to do aluminum unibody laptops? Even now nobody can make an AIO like the iMac. Even now, the iPhone 5 is considered the best industrial design of any smartphone. For the iPhone 5 camera they use a sapphire crystal because it's more durable then anything the used before.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the "modern smartphone" goes to Palm, with their Palm OS. Microsoft came along with Windows Mobile, and it wasn't until 2007 that Apple introduced the revolutionary iPhone. In fact, it was so revolutionary it couldn't send MMS.

Meanwhile, lets talk iOS devices. Airplay is a sad copy of DLNA, which uses specific hardware created by Intel. iMessage is hardly different from AIM, which came out in the early 90's. Likewise, the Nokia Lumia 920 has a OIS lens, which even the iPhone 5 doesn't have. So while Apple may have some more R&D in aluminum design methods, honestly, I'd rather a plastic phone or laptop that doesn't dent like my MBP did.

I really think you need to start looking at Apple objectively.
 

smoledman

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 17, 2011
1,943
364
Good luck getting an Apple case for $33, let alone an Apple branded Kinect.



Actually, I'm pretty sure that the "modern smartphone" goes to Palm, with their Palm OS. Microsoft came along with Windows Mobile, and it wasn't until 2007 that Apple introduced the revolutionary iPhone. In fact, it was so revolutionary it couldn't send MMS.

Meanwhile, lets talk iOS devices. Airplay is a sad copy of DLNA, which uses specific hardware created by Intel. iMessage is hardly different from AIM, which came out in the early 90's. Likewise, the Nokia Lumia 920 has a OIS lens, which even the iPhone 5 doesn't have. So while Apple may have some more R&D in aluminum design methods, honestly, I'd rather a plastic phone or laptop that doesn't dent like my MBP did.

I really think you need to start looking at Apple objectively.

Aluminum is a great casing for computers because it dissipates heat very well. So now you have the modern Macs with an SSD boot drive that allows the entire computer to be at 10 decibels. Literally a silent, high performance PC for a reasonable cost. How is that not innovation?
 

roxxette

macrumors 68000
Aug 9, 2011
1,507
0
Resonable cost my ass lol :p so now apple invented and implemented ssd ?.....

I guess people dont care much about silent machines, btw my macbook pro and macbook air are very loud when you actually work; pretty sure mines are the same as the rest.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
Apple is in the following markets:

Macs, no R&D required. Intel, and ATi do all the R&D,Apple puts it in a pretty case.
iToys, very little R&D required.
So is there a machine buried deep beneath Apple HQ that has a big read button labeled "make new product" and all they do is press it every now and then? Otherwise they do have to do R&D.

How is that not innovation?
Do you want to talk about things Apple has innovated or things Apple has invented?
 
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