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KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
The UI, clean design, battery life and the integration with iTunes were key points the first iPod, IMO.

Too bad those didn't help it sell or take off. The first iPod was a niche device for an even smaller niche market. It was targetted at "Mac users that also wanted a very pricy MP3 player". Considering the market share of Macs (and unit sales) back in 2001, considering that not all those folks even wanted an MP3 player, much less one that sold for 400$, the first iPod was a runaway train headed for a brick wall.

And you guys need to go back to the iPod Keynote. Even Steve Jobs himself acknowledges that the iPod isn't a market first, it's just a "we think Apple can do this right" product. HDD based MP3 players, Flash based MP3 players, CD players, he shows them all.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
Too bad those didn't help it sell or take off. The first iPod was a niche device for an even smaller niche market. It was targetted at "Mac users that also wanted a very pricy MP3 player". Considering the market share of Macs (and unit sales) back in 2001, considering that not all those folks even wanted an MP3 player, much less one that sold for 400$, the first iPod was a runaway train headed for a brick wall.
How did the iPod's form factor, UI, battery life and integration with iTunes *not* help it sell? Like you said, being an expensive MP3 player that was only compatible with Macs (which had around 2% of the market share at the time) really limited the customer base. Even then Apple sold about 3 or 4 hundred thousand of them the first year and double that the next year. Going cross platform and adopting USB seemed to be what really opened the flood gates and year three something like 3 million iPods were sold.
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
How did the iPod's form factor, UI, battery life and integration with iTunes *not* help it sell?

Because the other factors : Lack of Windows support, stuck with Firewire as an interface and its price prevented it from selling. People didn't place enough importance on the form factor, the UI and the battery life for it to change the fact they needed to buy a Mac with Firewire and needed to plop down the extra 400$ to get the iPod.

The USB iPod with Windows support is what helped it take off.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
Because the other factors : Lack of Windows support, stuck with Firewire as an interface and its price prevented it from selling. People didn't place enough importance on the form factor, the UI and the battery life for it to change the fact they needed to buy a Mac with Firewire and needed to plop down the extra 400$ to get the iPod.
I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of if the UI was poor, the form factor was clunky, the battery life was 'meh' and there was no iTunes integration then sales would've been much less than they were. I think those factors certainly helped sales even if they couldn't completely overcome the hurdles of targeting such as a small demographic out of the gate.
 

tkermit

macrumors 68040
Feb 20, 2004
3,586
2,921
Because the other factors : Lack of Windows support, stuck with Firewire as an interface and its price prevented it from selling. People didn't place enough importance on the form factor, the UI and the battery life for it to change the fact they needed to buy a Mac with Firewire

(Just as an aside: ) People were quick to make it work with Windows though - even without Apple's official support. I got an iPod in 2001 and only bought my first Mac a few years later. :)
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,998
9,976
CT
And your argument shows an amazing talent for twisting the facts and blowing smoke in any possible way to make Apple out to be the bad guy in everything.

If I'm a shareholder and I'm trying to decide where to park my cash, I can tell you that I would park it in a company that will be a responsible steward of my cash. Throwing money at products that have no chance at all of becoming a viable product is not an example of responsible management.

And I can play your game too. Look at it this way. Apple's "greed driven research" gave us great products like the iPhone and iPad. Apple has raked in billions of dollars in profits. Did you know that while tons of companies were cutting back during the recession, Apple was still hiring aggressively? Apple has given fuel to the mobile solutions industry. They continue to hire like mad. So Apple's "pure greed driven research" has made them very profitable, meaning that they will continue to hire aggressively, which will result in the betterment of mankind.
And what happens when Apple stops innovating and people get bored with the company. It happened once before and it will happen again. Don't expect Apple to be top dog forever.
 

smoledman

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 17, 2011
1,943
364
The reason why the iPod became such a phenomenal hit was it succeeded across all dimensions.

Hardware - Cool, stylish. Best fit & finish of all PMPs. Best combination of HDD & battery life.

Software - iTunes for buying music and syncing to the iPod. Better stability and quality compared to other sync software and better selection then Napster for buying.

Advertising - getting the likes of U2 to shill for it. Having cool looking billboards everywhere.

No other company could combine all these aspects, thus Apple was destined to dominate the PMP market.
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
(Just as an aside: ) People were quick to make it work with Windows though - even without Apple's official support. I got an iPod in 2001 and only bought my first Mac a few years later. :)

I tend to throw out those people because generally speaking it is going to be a very small handful that are going to go threw the effort to make it work with windows and deal with the very high limitation. The group that tended to do it were more people who did it because they could.
Your argument is like saying Windows 95 was great because people tried (and did) put it on an iPhone.
 

vvswarup

macrumors 6502a
Jul 21, 2010
544
225
And what happens when Apple stops innovating and people get bored with the company. It happened once before and it will happen again. Don't expect Apple to be top dog forever.

Was there a point that you were trying to make in there? I don't expect Apple to be top dog forever.
 

smoledman

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 17, 2011
1,943
364
Was there a point that you were trying to make in there? I don't expect Apple to be top dog forever.

Don't bother with the haters. Apple is in good hands. They might have some down periods in the future, but they will never be in danger again.
 

TedM

macrumors 6502
Sep 19, 2012
356
2
California
I think PC gaming is overrated. The mobile gaming profits are far bigger now and that's where Apple is. Just wait until Infinity Blade: Dungeons comes out. I think we can agree that Microsoft is dead, baby dead.

See PC gaming might not be your preference but a lot of other people feel differently. In fact I am one. PC gaming is so important to me that if I am not able to get every game out that I want to play because of my operating system. That's a deal breaker.

Mobile gaming has done incredible. The Free 2 Play premium has been doing pretty well, but in my opinion leads to lack luster games in the long run. Infinity blade was a good example of an excellent game. There are plenty around, I just wish there were more of the quality of Infinity blade 1 and 2. Also I demand a better story than IB lol.

Xbox music just came out to try and compete with Apple's itunes store. I think thats something everyone can laugh at.
 

decafjava

macrumors 603
Feb 7, 2011
5,503
8,013
Geneva
See PC gaming might not be your preference but a lot of other people feel differently. In fact I am one. PC gaming is so important to me that if I am not able to get every game out that I want to play because of my operating system. That's a deal breaker.

Mobile gaming has done incredible. The Free 2 Play premium has been doing pretty well, but in my opinion leads to lack luster games in the long run. Infinity blade was a good example of an excellent game. There are plenty around, I just wish there were more of the quality of Infinity blade 1 and 2. Also I demand a better story than IB lol.

Xbox music just came out to try and compete with Apple's itunes store. I think thats something everyone can laugh at.

Another PC gamer, nice to meet you. BTW there is an official IB novella that bridges the gap between the two games here:
http://epicgames.com/community/2011/10/infinity-blade-awakening/

I suppose as mobile devices get more powerful we'll see more "cinematic" games, not up to say Mass Effect etc. but more than the "Angy Birds" trope. Big limitation for me is battery life.


Agree with those who say the ipod didn't become big until it could be used with Windows PCs.
 

roadbloc

macrumors G3
Aug 24, 2009
8,784
215
UK
Xbox music just came out to try and compete with Apple's itunes store. I think thats something everyone can laugh at.

I don't think it's competing much, more providing the service for them who want it. A music store on digital devices and in an ecosystem is sort of expected nowadays. Microsoft would be foolish not to have one, regardless on how well it will do in competition with iTunes.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
I don't think it's competing much, more providing the service for them who want it. A music store on digital devices and in an ecosystem is sort of expected nowadays. Microsoft would be foolish not to have one, regardless on how well it will do in competition with iTunes.
Yeah, the trend towards everyone building their own walled garden continues. Thanks Apple...

With Windows 8 coming as well as new Windows tablets and smart phones they have to offer a 'complete package'. With the Xbox as a trojan horse MS has a leg up in putting the last piece of the ecosystem puzzle in place (the living room TV) but I don't know if they have the ability to pull off a satisfying enough user experience to ward off whatever Apple finally does. I feel the same way about SmartGlass. I love the concept (and that it's cross platform) but I'm afraid the actual implementation is going to clunky and because of that unappealing.
 

TedM

macrumors 6502
Sep 19, 2012
356
2
California
I don't think it's competing much, more providing the service for them who want it. A music store on digital devices and in an ecosystem is sort of expected nowadays. Microsoft would be foolish not to have one, regardless on how well it will do in competition with iTunes.

I suppose. But I mean lets be realistic. We all know how well zune did. I personally don't need to download any music on my xbox. Someone said later it might be available for other phones which would be amazing and probably necessary to make it work.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
I suppose. But I mean lets be realistic. We all know how well zune did. I personally don't need to download any music on my xbox. Someone said later it might be available for other phones which would be amazing and probably necessary to make it work.
Zune was a product though followed up by a service that carried the baggage of failed branding, limited exposure and limited functionality. I'm sure that MS is going to make sure that anyone with an Xbox, Windows 8 and/or Windows mobile device is going to know about Xbox Music (of course I still think there's a lot of potential for brand confusion here). What I think is interesting is the MS is going the subscription route even though subscription services don't have a stellar track record.

As an Xbox live Gold subscriber I don't mind paying for third party services (like Netflix) but for first party services like Xbox Music I'm not to thrilled at the $10/mo price tag.
 

smoledman

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 17, 2011
1,943
364
I suppose. But I mean lets be realistic. We all know how well zune did. I personally don't need to download any music on my xbox. Someone said later it might be available for other phones which would be amazing and probably necessary to make it work.

The difference is every song you purchase on XBox Music is available for download from Microsoft's cloud server forever. Not like with iTunes where you have to download within 5 minutes or you lose it.
 

Winni

macrumors 68040
Oct 15, 2008
3,207
1,196
Germany.
Apple spends $2 billion a year on R&D to generate $130 billion revenue.
Microsoft spends $9 billion a year on R&D to generate $70 billion revenue.

Everything Apple tries in the last decade has turned into a monster hit(iPod, iPhone, iMacs, iPad). Microsoft has no NEW products in the last decade that are monster hits. Only the legacy monopolies(Windows, Office, Visual Studio) continue raking in the monster profits. Everything else(Bing, XBox, Zune, Windows Phone, Courier, etc..) gets funded from those legacy profits.

Bottom line - Apple knows how to nip bad designs in the bud EARLY to prevent huge operating expenses. By the time they get to market with a product, it's guaranteed HUGE success. Microsoft just tries a bunch of bad ideas and hopes 1 sticks to the all(XBox 360 with XBL).

Well, you're certainly wrong about the Xbox business branch - it's a success and it's also profitable.

I also doubt that the Mac is a "monster hit". The Mac unit is profitable, but at less than 5 percent global market share Macs are hardly what I would call a monster hit. Compared to PCs running Windows, they are still insignificant.

Since you are the one who started comparing oranges with apples: I think Microsoft sold as many Xbox units as Apple sold Macs. Yet, you're saying that the Xbox is a subsidized flop and the Mac is a monster hit. The number of sold devices don't support your statement.

And Macs still have not entered the corporate world.

You also like to talk about the flops that Microsoft produced. How about Apple's flops? The AppleTV cannot hold a candle to Microsoft's Xbox business and we all know how much the Xserve sucked and how inappropriate OS X is as a server operating system -- not even Apple uses OS X and Xserves in its own data centers, they buy all data center hard- and software from Oracle.

Windows Server, on the other side, is a major backbone of businesses around the globe.

Microsoft is doing a lot more than just Windows, Office and Visual Studio. You just don't see most of their products at your local electronics store because like IBM and Oracle, they sell ENTERPRISE products, VERY successful enterprise products, and those are not limited to SQL Server, Exchange Server or Sharepoint Portal. They also successfully sell consulting services around their backoffice products.

Apple only became successful when they entered the gadgets market and began selling mp3 players and phones. And we haven't seen ANY new product families from Apple since then either. This could easily be a bubble that bursts when people get bored by their iDevices and move on to the next fashionable product du jour.

Once, the phone market was brutally dominated by Nokia. Look how quickly that changed. So what makes you guys think that Apple's success is going to last? After the all, the company was already on life support before the iPod came to their rescue. And who knows? Maybe the forthcoming generation of Windows phones will come to Nokia's rescue and bring them back to their former glory and let people forget about the iPhone.

Microsoft, on the other hand, has always been a steady and reliable success. They might be boring and not cool, but you shouldn't forget that they are playing a different sport than Apple -- they are an ENTERPRISE and OEM player, Apple on the other hand sells fashionable lifestyle electronics. You're basically comparing a perfume store with a bank.

But unlike Apple, Microsoft is at least willing to take risks and spends money on R&D instead of putting it all in the piggy bank.

Both companies have one thing in common, though: Their visionary founding fathers are no longer around.

Microsoft lost its bite and turned into another IBM when Bill Gates handed the business over to Steve Ballmer. And now Apple is also no longer run by a product visionary but by an accountant - and Tim Cook very much appears to be an accountant who is afraid of taking risks and shaking the boat. You don't need much imagination to predict the future of that company now that the "product pipeline" left behind by Steve Jobs is running dry.

Both corporations have too much money to fail (quickly), but you also cannot expect the next big thing from either one of them.

Google is also a large corporation deeply entrenched in a highly profitable market niche. But when I see Project Glass and the Driverless Car, at least I see truly innovative and visionary products.

But still, the next big thing will probably come from some small company that's on nobody's radar yet. Maybe it won't even be a computer product. Gene technology is big in Asia because they don't have any legal constraints there. Well, we'll see what the future brings.
 

the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
I've read this entire topic and I'm surprised to hear little mention of Education and the creative professional arena. Even Steve Jobs back in 1997 realised these were Apple's 2 strongest markets. And I believe today they still are.

Yes MS are in a whole lot of markets already listed here. And they are making a killing. But I've have not seen MS doing all that much of push into these 2 usually Apple dominated markets.

And as an offshoot. The Xbox division of MS is only just becoming profitable of recent is because we are at the end of the current generation. Before that it was Nintendo that was making the killing in the console market. And soon the Xbox division will have to compete with the WiiU. Sure I agree the Xbox has matured into a rather decent product. But they can't sit on their laurels. Or they'll just be overtaken.

In saying that Apple, Nintendo and MS have different gaming strategies.

Apple - the iOS cash cow. As in people buy iOS devices to play the games (and do other things).
Nintendo - Gaming that promotes communication. ie not just 4 people playing a game with no communication in the room. Nintendo want lots of talking and fun in the room and also keeping connected around the world. With online game scores to beat and chatting etc etc. One video I saw with a japanese guy from Nintendo talking about this really explained it well. I saw it a while ago but can't seem to find the video.
MS - HD games + movies + music + Kinect

This does not say one is better then another. It just says each have rather different approaches to their gaming consoles.

And yes Macs are a monster hit. Just not in the way most people think. Most PCs are sold low profit with high sales numbers. But Apple sell their Macs with (compared to most sold PCs) low number sold but a high profit margin. And they are increasing their market share slowly too.
 

roadbloc

macrumors G3
Aug 24, 2009
8,784
215
UK
Knowing Apple, they have something even better then Kinect coming out on the iTV in 2013. Probably for 1/3 the cost of development too.

You mean like iOS 6 maps? We all know how awesome they are. Fool you Google for spending 2/3s more on developing your maps service. :rolleyes:
 

TedM

macrumors 6502
Sep 19, 2012
356
2
California
The difference is every song you purchase on XBox Music is available for download from Microsoft's cloud server forever. Not like with iTunes where you have to download within 5 minutes or you lose it.

They changed that policy I believe. I haven't had any issues re-downloading my music from apple anymore. But maybe its just me.
 
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