Agreed. Something I say many times is that there is a difference between a photographer and someone with a camera.
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Why are SD cards too fragile?
- Thread starter jwolf6589
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i really like the word enthusiast over hobbyist. i’ve never considered that word before.rharris1 had asked:
Do you consider 35GB a lot of data for photographs? and the response was "yes!"
Yep. Way too small. Aside from that, IMHO not everyone who posts on the internet could actually be considered "a photographer," or even "a hobbyist." Some people just snap off photos a few times a year at family gatherings, on holidays and when vacationing in new areas. The rest of the time the gear lives in a drawer or cabinet. Or in a pocket.... Even those who quickly snap off cell phone photos of their breakfast, their lunch or their dinner to share on Instagram may be more interested in the social aspects of that action than in the fact that they're taking a photograph.
From Adorama, a vendor of photographic gear:
5 Desirable Qualities Every Good Photographer Should Have - Adorama
Being a good photographer is more than just mastering your camera — it’s about the inherent qualities that allow you to capture beauty.www.adorama.com
Five Desirable Qualities Every Good Photographer Should Have:
I think most people who are really into photography, who are truly serious about it and who engage in it on a fairly regular basis (I prefer the term "enthusiast" to "hobbyist" or "amateur") have most of the qualities listed above, but in particular the one thing shared in common would be passion.
- Creativity and Imagination. Photography, for all intents and purposes, is a form of art. ...
- An Eye for Detail. ...
- Patience and Flexibility. ...
- Good People Skills. ...
- Passion...
i have seen this article before but i’m not sure i agree with it. a photographer only needs good people skills if they shoot people. as a nature photographer my introversion doesn’t hold me back in any way.
i also know some people in real life who do have good people skills but lack the others on the list. yet i would probably still categorize them as photographers due to the volume of images they shoot and their desire to share them with others.
i’m not sure that i personally like combining passion and skill to define a photographer. but i respect a differing opinion on this.
My photography/videography workflow is as follows:
- Shoot to SD cards
- Copy files to a computer
- Verify the files
- Backup the files to a NAS and other drives
- Format the cards in the camera to get them ready for the next shoot
So the concept of long term storage on SD cards is foreign to me! This is quite a fascinating thread!
I've heard that you're not supposed to shoot more pictures to a card after you mount it on a computer. The computer might write invisible/junk files to the card and it might confuse the camera. That's why it's always recommended that you format the cards in the camera before your next shoot.
The OP clearly hasn't had any problems reshooting cards. But that's just not a game I'm willing to play.
- Shoot to SD cards
- Copy files to a computer
- Verify the files
- Backup the files to a NAS and other drives
- Format the cards in the camera to get them ready for the next shoot
So the concept of long term storage on SD cards is foreign to me! This is quite a fascinating thread!
I've heard that you're not supposed to shoot more pictures to a card after you mount it on a computer. The computer might write invisible/junk files to the card and it might confuse the camera. That's why it's always recommended that you format the cards in the camera before your next shoot.
The OP clearly hasn't had any problems reshooting cards. But that's just not a game I'm willing to play.
Yes, and on early Macs I can virtually rebuild the old 400K and 800K drives in my sleep. Fortunately people are now reproducing the eject gear that almost always turns to dust on these.
Zips I don't dare try to rebuild, but they generally wake up with a good dusting..
In the vintage computer hobby, it's even more alarming(to me) that there are a lot of adapters out there that allow you to use CF or SD cards in place of the hard drive.
On one hand, it's a lifeline for some things especially when you get to obscure stuff that hasn't been made in years, like 2.5" SCSI or even better the drive for the Macintosh Portable.
On the other hand, I see a lot of people doing it even for things like 2.5" ATA hard drives, where there's a much more robust solution that I've used for years-namely a proper M.2 SATA SSD in an adapter.
The danger with any of these technologies is that often the computers are bottlenecked on RAM enough that they're often hitting the hard drive for virtual memory/swap and CF or SD aren't designed for that type of read/write use.
Of course I also can't say anything since more than once I've booted a Powerbook G4 Titanium from a CF card shoved directly in its PCMCIA/Carbus slot via a passive adapter. CF cards follow the PCMCIA standard although are a different form factor that a standard card, so really are just plug and play in those.
Like you, Molly, I don't agree 100% with the Adorama article, but I do feel that good people skills are necessary when shooting individual portraits or models for magazine covers and fashion shoots, etc., not to mention weddings, maternity and family portraits. Especially for someone who is in photography to earn a living, good people skills would be a necessity, but not so much so for the serious enthusiast who likes to shoot flora and fauna. A good wildlife photographer, either professional or enthusiast, can have stunning images on the covers and pages of wildlife magazines but not be particularly good in dealing with people. Birds and animals don't care much about a human's personality traits. I'm definitely someone who is much happier shooting birds and animals or creating abstract images with inanimate objects than I am taking portraits or even casual candids of people!
On another site (one which is photography-specific) where I participate regularly, the word "enthusiast" or sometimes the term "serious enthusiast" is seen more frequently than the word "hobbyist."
I daresay that not everyone who is passionate about photography necessarily also is especially skilled at it. Developing knowledge and technical skills is something which takes time and an interest in doing so..... One really never stops learning. Some people may spend years with a camera in their hands and still not have the ability to really shoot skillfully. Some may have sloppy technique or be casual in their approach (the ones who say, "oh, well, I can fix that in Photoshop") but still consider themselves to be "photographers." So, right, "passion" and "skill" do not necessarily go together, but it is good when they actually do.
I wouldn't consider "volume of images" and "desire to share them with others" particularly valuable criteria one way or the other. Again, that kind of thing brings those Instagram cell phone snap shooters to mind.....
However, both of those added in with the passion and the skills, creativity and imagination, eye for detail, flexibility, etc., can bring us to the common ground where we often find the enthusiasts on photography-related website forums or on subforums in sites such as MR. Sharing of photos on these sites, discussion of techniques, conversations about the joy experienced when out for a day's excursion or when working with someone on a special photography project is indeed something which enhances and extends the photography experience even further.
On another site (one which is photography-specific) where I participate regularly, the word "enthusiast" or sometimes the term "serious enthusiast" is seen more frequently than the word "hobbyist."
I daresay that not everyone who is passionate about photography necessarily also is especially skilled at it. Developing knowledge and technical skills is something which takes time and an interest in doing so..... One really never stops learning. Some people may spend years with a camera in their hands and still not have the ability to really shoot skillfully. Some may have sloppy technique or be casual in their approach (the ones who say, "oh, well, I can fix that in Photoshop") but still consider themselves to be "photographers." So, right, "passion" and "skill" do not necessarily go together, but it is good when they actually do.
I wouldn't consider "volume of images" and "desire to share them with others" particularly valuable criteria one way or the other. Again, that kind of thing brings those Instagram cell phone snap shooters to mind.....
However, both of those added in with the passion and the skills, creativity and imagination, eye for detail, flexibility, etc., can bring us to the common ground where we often find the enthusiasts on photography-related website forums or on subforums in sites such as MR. Sharing of photos on these sites, discussion of techniques, conversations about the joy experienced when out for a day's excursion or when working with someone on a special photography project is indeed something which enhances and extends the photography experience even further.
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but as a hobbyist/enthusiast, why does skill matter? why isn't passion alone enough?
for a paid photographer, i absolutely agree that skill matters, and I cringe at a lot of the work of "professional" photographers. if someone is taking money, then their images had better be to a certain level (although defining that level gets difficult, and if a client is okay with crappy photos, then maybe even that shouldn't matter).
but I honestly don't understand why we have to have a skill level of xyz to be considered a hobbyist photographer.
from merriam webster:
for a paid photographer, i absolutely agree that skill matters, and I cringe at a lot of the work of "professional" photographers. if someone is taking money, then their images had better be to a certain level (although defining that level gets difficult, and if a client is okay with crappy photos, then maybe even that shouldn't matter).
but I honestly don't understand why we have to have a skill level of xyz to be considered a hobbyist photographer.
from merriam webster:
- photographer: one who practices photography, especially, one who makes a business of taking photographs.
- photography: : the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface (such as film or an optical sensor)
If I were to say that playing piano is a hobby of mine but all I did was slam on the keys with no knowledge of the instrument or music theory, would you agree it's actually a hobby?
i actually would. if a person spends time and enjoys it then i’d consider it that person’s hobby.
i might not want to listen to it, but it doesn’t make it less of a hobby to that person.
Well, of course skill and technique matter, whether one is a paid professional or an enthusiast shooting and subsequently sharing his or her work. Don't most of us who share images on the POTD thread try to present images which have been shot with at least some level of skill so that they are reasonably pleasing to view? Occasionally one will actually even have that "wow!" factor.
I think most people who are actually not all that interested in photography and who, as I mentioned earlier, only pull out the camera for holidays, family gatherings and vacations probably (a) don't have much skill and (b) don't care one way or the other and (c) don't consider themselves "a hobbyist." Ditto for those who whip out their iPhone to shoot a picture of the meal they've just been served in a restaurant so that they can share the picture with all their friends on FB, Instagram and such. They snap the picture, send it out into the stratosphere to land in their friends' various social media accounts or text/messaging accounts and stick the phone back into their pocket.
Probably at the point where someone is interested enough to be spending a fair amount of time and energy in learning and practicing a given endeavor, such as photography, that's when they themselves and others might consider them as a "hobbyist," regardless of their skill level. However, chances are pretty good that, yes, along with their interest in photography the skill level will have advanced beyond the point of simply taking out the camera, making a shot or two of something that they see and that's it.
An Internet search of, "how long do SD cards last?" will yield a lot of answers like this one:
How Long Do Memory Cards Last? - Improve Photography
How Long Do Memory Cards Last?. In response to my article entitled "9 Things Photographers Need to Know About Memory Cards", Richard Cole and Aloha Lavina
improvephotography.com
1TB SD CARD???? Geech that’s as big as my MacBook Pro hard drive! Who would need that kind of space?An Internet search of, "how long do SD cards last?" will yield a lot of answers like this one:
How Long Do Memory Cards Last? - Improve Photography
How Long Do Memory Cards Last?. In response to my article entitled "9 Things Photographers Need to Know About Memory Cards", Richard Cole and Aloha Lavinaimprovephotography.com
I would agree that people who only shoot birthday parties and holidays wouldn't really be called hobbyists. Those people aren't immersed in shooting, they are just doing it to capture memories.
I disagree that people who are only using their iPhones to shoot food photographers are not photographers. If that person considers themselves a photographer, and they are shooting their meals consistently, then they are a photographer.
A hobbyist does not need to have a skill. From Merriam Webster again:
hobby: a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation
It's interesting to me that you fixate so much on the end result as to whether or not one can be considered a hobbyist in something. As long as someone regularly engages in an activity and it's fun for them, to me it is clear it would be considered a hobby.
A lot of hobbies don't even have real skill involved; or perhaps that is just my perception. Like stamp collecting doesn't seem to need a lot of skill? Some time and research, but is it a skillful hobby? Likewise reading. Sure, you obviously have to know how to read, but an eight year old reader is no less a reader than an 80 year old, even if the 80 year old is reading higher level books.
I do think that spending time with a hobby tends to make one skilled, but I don't think that skill is necessary to enjoy something. Think of sports fans; there are millions of people who follow sports statistics but can't actually play the sport they follow; that someone can't throw a Super Bowl winning touchdown doesn't make them less of a sports fan (ie football hobbyist) than someone who can.
Incidentally, I asked both of my kids if they consider skill a necessary requirement of a hobby. My daughter (16) says no; she enjoys film photography and does consider it a hobby of hers (I am actually taking her to the camera store tomorrow so she can have three rolls of film developed) but she also says she isn't particularly good at it, but that makes her happy. My son (14) thinks that skill is involved in having a hobby; he is into biking, and he thinks someone who has no biking skills can't claim it as a hobby.
I think our definitions of "hobby" definitely differ in some ways! I am an avid reader, have been for most of my life, but it would never occur to me to call that "a hobby."
Stamp collecting may not involve a skill per se as far as creating the stamps and such, but isn't there some skill and/or development of knowledge involved in knowing what is valuable or potentially valuable as opposed to common everyday stamps? To use another example of something regarded as "hobbies" if one stops in a store such as Hobby Lobby or Michael's, there are all kinds of arts and crafts materials available for purchase there to support people's hobbies, whether they include beading, needlepoint, cross-stitching, sewing or scrapbooking, etc. Don't most of those activities require some skill development along the way?
With regard to sports, sure, someone who goes to sports activities regularly (an adult attending adult sporting events or watching them on television, not parents attending their kids' sports games) probably does consider that a hobby in and of itself, which it would be, given that it requires time and interest and often money to engage in that. No skill in performing the actual sport required there but presumably the regular fan (perhaps even a former participant in the sport as a child or adolescent) does actually have or develops enough knowledge and appreciation of the game or activity to recognize when someone is doing something really well or when they are not.
Food photography as practiced and executed by both enthusiasts and professional food photographers who carefully set up the scene, plate and position the food and utensils in a specific way and light everything to show the food at its best is quite different from Joe Blow sitting in a restaurant pulling out his iPhone and quickly snapping off a snapshot of his meal that has just been served so that he can share it with his 1800 best friends on social media IMHO is NOT a "photographer." He's a snap shooter recording a record of his meal for posterity, for whatever that's worth.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.....
Oh, and I'm with your son here -- yes, biking requires some skills and I agree with him that someone who does it only casually and/or infrequently can't really claim that it is a hobby. Riding a bike to the store and back isn't quite the same as doing a serious ride. I'm glad that your daughter is enjoying photography -- she'll develop the skills as she goes along, it takes time, as we know.....
Stamp collecting may not involve a skill per se as far as creating the stamps and such, but isn't there some skill and/or development of knowledge involved in knowing what is valuable or potentially valuable as opposed to common everyday stamps? To use another example of something regarded as "hobbies" if one stops in a store such as Hobby Lobby or Michael's, there are all kinds of arts and crafts materials available for purchase there to support people's hobbies, whether they include beading, needlepoint, cross-stitching, sewing or scrapbooking, etc. Don't most of those activities require some skill development along the way?
With regard to sports, sure, someone who goes to sports activities regularly (an adult attending adult sporting events or watching them on television, not parents attending their kids' sports games) probably does consider that a hobby in and of itself, which it would be, given that it requires time and interest and often money to engage in that. No skill in performing the actual sport required there but presumably the regular fan (perhaps even a former participant in the sport as a child or adolescent) does actually have or develops enough knowledge and appreciation of the game or activity to recognize when someone is doing something really well or when they are not.
Food photography as practiced and executed by both enthusiasts and professional food photographers who carefully set up the scene, plate and position the food and utensils in a specific way and light everything to show the food at its best is quite different from Joe Blow sitting in a restaurant pulling out his iPhone and quickly snapping off a snapshot of his meal that has just been served so that he can share it with his 1800 best friends on social media IMHO is NOT a "photographer." He's a snap shooter recording a record of his meal for posterity, for whatever that's worth.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.....
Oh, and I'm with your son here -- yes, biking requires some skills and I agree with him that someone who does it only casually and/or infrequently can't really claim that it is a hobby. Riding a bike to the store and back isn't quite the same as doing a serious ride. I'm glad that your daughter is enjoying photography -- she'll develop the skills as she goes along, it takes time, as we know.....
What was important about the article was its title and contents, which is: How Long Do Memory Cards Last?
You asked the question about "how long SD cards last," and I responded with an Internet search and a link for you to read. SD cards aren't fragile, and some have a lot of storage room. Most people don't use of need 1TB SD card, but lots videographers do, since it allows for hours of video recording instead of minutes.
From the article (link I posted before), here is the answer to your question:
How Long Do Memory Cards Last? - Improve Photography
How Long Do Memory Cards Last?. In response to my article entitled "9 Things Photographers Need to Know About Memory Cards", Richard Cole and Aloha Lavina
improvephotography.com
A memory card can last from a few seconds to perhaps a decade or two.
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I'm fine with agreeing to disagree....I just think if someone is interested in an activity and they do it regularly, then it's a hobby by definition, regardless of skill.
Although most sources agree that reading is, in fact, an actual hobby, so you can add that to your list. ?
That's really intriguing that by some folks reading is considered a hobby.....Wow! One learns something new every day......
I think the part of your post, "someone is interested in an activity and they do it regularly" is the key to all of this in the first place, something which I guess got missed in all my usual excess verbiage when I was trying to make this very point.
Someone who only pulls out the camera or the cell phone to shoot when on vacation or with the family during a holiday or other celebration is not, then, going to be considered a "hobbyist," right?
I think the part of your post, "someone is interested in an activity and they do it regularly" is the key to all of this in the first place, something which I guess got missed in all my usual excess verbiage when I was trying to make this very point.
Someone who only pulls out the camera or the cell phone to shoot when on vacation or with the family during a holiday or other celebration is not, then, going to be considered a "hobbyist," right?
i think a cell phone camera user is as much a photographer as someone with a point and shoot or a full ILC kit. i think that is where you and i differ. you dismiss phone users out of hand.
and you dismissed my friend who shoots her kids and their friends at all the sporting events. she does use a “real” camera, but shoots on auto/jpeg. but her images and shooting give her great joy and she loves to share them. she also does not recognize her images as bad (which frankly they usually are) because she enjoys taking them.
you’ve often conflated skill with passion and i think those are two different things. and i know we often don’t see eye to eye, so you should know i’m honestly not arguing, just trying to see where you delineate from not hobby to hobby because you seem to have some sort of invisible threshold i truly don’t understand. this is a genuine discussion on my part.
A couple of things-
We all have to start somewhere.
Many people will click away with their phone for years and never get anything more than snapshots. My wife probably hasn't touched a "real" camera in years but I'd also guess that she may have taken more photos in the last month than I have.
With that said, she would never say that photography is a hobby of hers. She has, to my eye, taken some impressive photos but they're mostly just documenting her life.
At the same time, there are a couple of old sayings like that everyone has to start somewhere, and the best camera is the one you have with you. Most people have a smartphone now, whether or not they even realize it has a camera. For some people, it's just a convenient way to share a recipe(been watching my wife have photos of those fly around with her family the last couple of days) or to remember where you were.
For others, though, maybe they find they enjoy taking pictures and start paying attention to what looks good and what doesn't. Maybe their "vision" evolves from there and they eventually realize that a phone may not do everything they desire and move on to a more advanced camera, or maybe they continue creating great art with their phone.
They you have the other example of accomplished photographers who might make a creative decision to undertake a project with just their phone or other limited equipment compared to what they "normally" use, or just to take a photo because something catches their eye and that's all they have with them. I have a good friend who's quite an accomplished pro(doing things like taking a lot of official studio photos for the Indy 500 and other events around Indianapolis) and seems to go in a cycle of deciding he's going to retire then getting sucked back into another project that interests him. I've seen some amazing iPhone work from him-both seen him taking it and also seen the results. I've seen him post a "just a crummy iPhone photo" that is better than what 99% of people can do with a full featured camera(although his "real" work is mostly now with a D850 or Z7). If Galen Rowell were still alive, I'd be shocked if a significant body of his work wasn't taken with a smart phone.
To the quality of results, though-some people are gearheads(I can sometimes fall that way) but I still enjoy getting results with them. Sometimes my work is crummy, and sometimes I get something halfway decent. Am I allowed to call myself a photographer because I don't always turn out good stuff? I'll leave that up to you all to figure out.
On hobbies more in general-I have been a collector all my life. I collect cameras, watches, fountain pens, and plenty of other things. To be a serious collector(not accumulator) there is a level of dedication involved. My watch collection is where I have probably dug the deepest. I've spent 10 years now compiling data to hopefully write an article on one specific watch I happen to really enjoy collecting(to the point of now over 50 examples) but every time I think I'm ready to put it together I find something new that just shakes everything up. To further my research, not only do I talk to others but I travel to shows/conventions(or did before COVID). I do things my wife thinks are crazy like call museum curators and make appointments to look at/handle items in their collections, and at the same time when I still lived in Kentucky I more than once gave opinions and/or appraisals for museums on donated or found pieces in their collection. I'm actually crawling out of my skin right now because I had a random email show up in my inbox a few weeks ago from someone who has a watch that made in the 1850s in my home town and wants to show it to me-I got photos and my outloud reaction was a couple of words I don't normally say. I called someone else who had looked at it and that guy told me he'd had the same reaction on seeing photos. That's a serious digression, though, I realize, but it's something that I think I can call a hobby.
We all have to start somewhere.
Many people will click away with their phone for years and never get anything more than snapshots. My wife probably hasn't touched a "real" camera in years but I'd also guess that she may have taken more photos in the last month than I have.
With that said, she would never say that photography is a hobby of hers. She has, to my eye, taken some impressive photos but they're mostly just documenting her life.
At the same time, there are a couple of old sayings like that everyone has to start somewhere, and the best camera is the one you have with you. Most people have a smartphone now, whether or not they even realize it has a camera. For some people, it's just a convenient way to share a recipe(been watching my wife have photos of those fly around with her family the last couple of days) or to remember where you were.
For others, though, maybe they find they enjoy taking pictures and start paying attention to what looks good and what doesn't. Maybe their "vision" evolves from there and they eventually realize that a phone may not do everything they desire and move on to a more advanced camera, or maybe they continue creating great art with their phone.
They you have the other example of accomplished photographers who might make a creative decision to undertake a project with just their phone or other limited equipment compared to what they "normally" use, or just to take a photo because something catches their eye and that's all they have with them. I have a good friend who's quite an accomplished pro(doing things like taking a lot of official studio photos for the Indy 500 and other events around Indianapolis) and seems to go in a cycle of deciding he's going to retire then getting sucked back into another project that interests him. I've seen some amazing iPhone work from him-both seen him taking it and also seen the results. I've seen him post a "just a crummy iPhone photo" that is better than what 99% of people can do with a full featured camera(although his "real" work is mostly now with a D850 or Z7). If Galen Rowell were still alive, I'd be shocked if a significant body of his work wasn't taken with a smart phone.
To the quality of results, though-some people are gearheads(I can sometimes fall that way) but I still enjoy getting results with them. Sometimes my work is crummy, and sometimes I get something halfway decent. Am I allowed to call myself a photographer because I don't always turn out good stuff? I'll leave that up to you all to figure out.
On hobbies more in general-I have been a collector all my life. I collect cameras, watches, fountain pens, and plenty of other things. To be a serious collector(not accumulator) there is a level of dedication involved. My watch collection is where I have probably dug the deepest. I've spent 10 years now compiling data to hopefully write an article on one specific watch I happen to really enjoy collecting(to the point of now over 50 examples) but every time I think I'm ready to put it together I find something new that just shakes everything up. To further my research, not only do I talk to others but I travel to shows/conventions(or did before COVID). I do things my wife thinks are crazy like call museum curators and make appointments to look at/handle items in their collections, and at the same time when I still lived in Kentucky I more than once gave opinions and/or appraisals for museums on donated or found pieces in their collection. I'm actually crawling out of my skin right now because I had a random email show up in my inbox a few weeks ago from someone who has a watch that made in the 1850s in my home town and wants to show it to me-I got photos and my outloud reaction was a couple of words I don't normally say. I called someone else who had looked at it and that guy told me he'd had the same reaction on seeing photos. That's a serious digression, though, I realize, but it's something that I think I can call a hobby.
Life is a hobby, I am no Pro at it.
However, I have been at it for a long time and do have some skill sets.
However, I have been at it for a long time and do have some skill sets.
how absurd! All these words offer zero explanation on why an SD card is so fragile! ?