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djellison

macrumors 68020
Feb 2, 2007
2,229
4
Pasadena CA
Everything you can do on XP and Vista you can do on Macs. .

No - you can't. There are pieces of software out there that are XP only. Furthermore, and most importantly, Mac's are expensive. On Xp - I can have an office PC built, with an OS, monitor, keyboard, mouse,for <£300.

You can't do that with a Mac. In an office with 1000 workstations, we're talking savings of hundreds of thousands of pounds. And whilst, for some people, Mac's are nicer to use - for the vast majority of people, it doesn't matter. XP is not better or worse than OSX for Email and Office apps. Infact, I would argue it is worse given the dreadful Office 2008. Furthermore, given the support infrastructure, training background etc - switching to OSX for 90% of XP users is simply not going to happen.

It's attitudes like yours that make the world of Apple so hated by outsiders. That, along with the barrier price to entry for the enterprise market, are the two biggest reasons Apple have not reached a more significant portion of the market.

I'm not sure what world you live in - but it's not the real one.
 

Primejimbo

macrumors 68040
Aug 10, 2008
3,295
131
Around
Everything you can do on XP and Vista you can do on Macs. You can do them faster and have more fun doing so.
I have many programs for work that sadly that will not work on a Mac (and probably never will). if everything thing you could do on a PC you could do on a Mac, why do people use bootcamp?

It's attitudes like yours that make the world of Apple so hated by outsiders. That, along with the barrier price to entry for the enterprise market, are the two biggest reasons Apple have not reached a more significant portion of the market.

I'm not sure what world you live in - but it's not the real one.

I couldn't agree with you more!!
 

JonMcDonald

macrumors member
Jan 18, 2009
48
0
People still buy Microsoft because they develop some good products. My friend has a Zune. I don't like it as much, but I can say that I was impressed by it when playing around with it. Windows 7 is rumored to be incredible. Vista got off to a very bumpy start, but was a decent OS (doesn't compare to OS X, but that's a different story).

I think that Microsoft makes good products, for less. I think Apple makes great products for more. I prefer great, but for people just browsing the internet, I don't know if Mac is totally perfect for them!
 

Primejimbo

macrumors 68040
Aug 10, 2008
3,295
131
Around
People still buy Microsoft because they develop some good products. My friend has a Zune. I don't like it as much, but I can say that I was impressed by it when playing around with it. Windows 7 is rumored to be incredible. Vista got off to a very bumpy start, but was a decent OS (doesn't compare to OS X, but that's a different story).

I think that Microsoft makes good products, for less. I think Apple makes great products for more. I prefer great, but for people just browsing the internet, I don't know if Mac is totally perfect for them!

A friend of mine also has a Zune also, and it's not a bad MP3 player at all. I though about getting 1 also at 1 time. The only reason why the Ipod won was my wife had one and I wanted to get an Ipod ready car radio. If I got a Zune I would have to get 2 hooks up or use the earphone jacks to play them in the car radio. I am very happy with the Ipod, but the Zune isn't bad at all.
 

JonMcDonald

macrumors member
Jan 18, 2009
48
0
What? Someone actually bought a Zune?

You should really help him out. Show him some Apple products.

He's seen Apple products. I guess they didn't suit him. I love Apple products. Apple products aren't for everyone, however. He likes the Zune, he earned the money, and he's very happy with how he spent it. That's all that matters!
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
What? Someone actually bought a Zune?

You should really help him out. Show him some Apple products.
The Zune player has a surprisingly friendly interface and layout. The Zune software while encountering some growing pains has really begun to shine in its latest version. There are many depths of organization and it's rather easy to get ahold of track data even if it's something esoteric. No account needed either...

I'd have a Zune right now if Microsoft shipped an OS X version of the software and it didn't try to mangle my ID3 tags in its own way.

Then again I don't want to imagine what would happen to you if you tried to use it.
 

NovemberMike

macrumors member
Jul 1, 2008
50
0
What? Someone actually bought a Zune?

You should really help him out. Show him some Apple products.

Zunes actually have fairly significantly better audio quality than iPods (coming from friends who care about that stuff).

The main reason people use windows is because MS supports it forever. People are talking about Apple getting rid of support for 3 year old PPC machines while Microsoft is still putting out security updates for a 9 year old OS. In the business world where companies might not update for 10+ years on key systems, this kind of service is important.
 

sn00pie

macrumors 6502a
Jun 25, 2008
593
0
United States
has anyone ever considered that if apple was the market leader instead of microsoft, people would be saying the same thing about apple?

Yes, and infact that is why I'm quite happy with where Apple is right now. The last thing I want in the world is for Apple to take over Microsoft's position.

Apple wants to increase market share, so they continue to pump out great products after products. If they were #1, there wouldn't be that willingness to continue to make excellent products.
 

Syrus28

macrumors 6502a
Feb 1, 2008
553
0
Peoria, AZ
I advocated this concept for many years but I think it's becoming progressively less relevant in the current marketplace. Microsoft has not proven an ability to successfully leverage Windows into new markets for quite some time, they are watched very closely by regulatory agencies when they try, and their forays into new product markets have been essentially unsuccessful. I don't worry about Microsoft nearly as much as I did ten years ago.
Honestly, I find this funny. You advocated for Mac users to universally stop buying Microsoft products? Really? You had nothing better to do? This, along with the fact that you "worry" about Microsoft [being successful] shows the quite paranoid and egotistical attitude about Microsoft/Apple some people possess. I swear Fanboys (or Mac Zealots if you prefer ;)) worry more about Microsoft than the people at Microsoft do. Too many people on this forums, notably AppleMacTheBest, are caught up with some childish mentality concerning the existence and competition of Apple and Microsoft.


As for the "fanboy war," I think the use of this word should be banned from discussions on this forum, in the same way as the use of other insults are banned. Calling someone a "fanboy" is not an argument, it is a complete lack of an argument. Calling someone a fanboy is an effort to be dismissive of what someone is saying, without actually responding to their points in any substantial way. This no better than calling someone an idiot. It is a miserable excuse for an argument. Insults are childish and needlessly provocative -- and for that reason, not allowed here.
Fanboy - a term used to describe an individual who is devoted to a single subject in an emotional or fanatical manner, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession.

Really? That, truthfully, is the perfect way to describe some people on these forums. Unlike "idiot" or other insults, it doesn't degrade another person, but provides a quite accurate way of describing people. Honestly, I couldn't think of a better word to describe some people on these forums (although I choose not to). To each his own I guess...:D

I've never been accused of complacency, so that accusation goes nowhere. But you do need a better understanding of how Microsoft achieved its dominance in operating systems. In short, it was an enormous historical fluke. It won't be repeated. This occurred before the Mac was even on the scene. Microsoft's illegal activities were related to their exploitation (leveraging) of their existing market power and their protection of that market power in operating systems. These are powers they lack in any other market, and they have thus far failed to make much more than a dent in any other market no matter how much cash they have poured into it. Sony and Nintendo are fully capable of competing with Microsoft in the game console market. There's simply no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Ok, none of Microsoft's products have reached the market-share and profits of Windows. Big deal, what has? Besides Oil, there's not another product on the face of the earth as profitable as Microsoft Windows. Lastly, I wouldn't call Windows Mobile and the Xbox "dent's". While they may not be leading their industries, they both play major roles respectively. Truthfully, you need to work on your definition of "success". Success is accomplishment of a goal relative to their industry. Not everything has to fall back on comparison to Windows. (Or EVERYTHING would be a failure)

------
Bottom Line:
Microsoft's failure is NOT a requirement of Apple's success, and vice-versa.

Don't want to use Microsoft stuff? That's a personal preference - not a cause to hate. Don't be sucked in to the latest Hate Fad™.
 

Pnut13

macrumors member
Feb 9, 2009
58
0
ive had many issues with my mb and iphone

there are many more issues apple has as well

apple is far from perfect lol

or do you just choose not to see that?
I am not agreeing with AppleMActhe Best but Apple has had issues but not as many and not as wide spread. Wiis and PS3 have the average of 2-4% failure rates and the MS 360 has been significatly higher 16-32% of all units sold. I never heard of any Apple computer or hardware product fail at that rate, i could be wrong
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Honestly, I find this funny. You advocated for Mac users to universally stop buying Microsoft products? Really? You had nothing better to do? This, along with the fact that you "worry" about Microsoft [being successful] shows the quite paranoid and egotistical attitude about Microsoft/Apple some people possess. I swear Fanboys (or Mac Zealots if you prefer ;)) worry more about Microsoft than the people at Microsoft do. Too many people on this forums, notably AppleMacTheBest, are caught up with some childish mentality concerning the existence and competition of Apple and Microsoft.

This is a quite a convoluted bit of reasoning, but if you must know, as a theoretical position I advocated that nobody buy Microsoft products, as a way of thinking in terms of alternatives to Microsoft products at a time when almost nobody was. In fact I was one of the most prominent "anti-Microsoft" people on the net for some time. I retired from that field of battle years ago, after the antitrust cases against Microsoft restricted their abilities to restrain trade, and after it became so painfully obvious that without these methods they were going to struggle with marketing new products. Apple's resurgence only iced the cake. So I no longer worry about Microsoft. I now find them more comical than dangerous.

So in your paranoid and egotistical terms, I had nothing better to do. If you say so, it must right.

In any case, for my current thinking on this issue, you might want to re-read what I wrote. Might help if you were responding to that, instead of some imagined person saying some conveniently imagined things.

Fanboy - a term used to describe an individual who is devoted to a single subject in an emotional or fanatical manner, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession.

Really? That, truthfully, is the perfect way to describe some people on these forums. Unlike "idiot" or other insults, it doesn't degrade another person, but provides a quite accurate way of describing people. Honestly, I couldn't think of a better word to describe some people on these forums (although I choose not to). To each his own I guess...:D

Really. Yes, it seems we do have to explain over and over again what it means to have an honest debate. An honest debate is to respond to an argument with an argument. Name calling is just name calling. It's a cover for the likely fact that you have no argument to make.

Ok, none of Microsoft's products have reached the market-share and profits of Windows. Big deal, what has? Besides Oil, there's not another product on the face of the earth as profitable as Microsoft Windows. Lastly, I wouldn't call Windows Mobile and the Xbox "dent's". While they may not be leading their industries, they both play major roles respectively. Truthfully, you need to work on your definition of "success". Success is accomplishment of a goal relative to their industry. Not everything has to fall back on comparison to Windows. (Or EVERYTHING would be a failure)

I'm not going to repeat everything I've said already, but the point in general is that Microsoft has had great difficulty with creating profitable products outside of operating systems and software. You may not believe that profits matter in business, but if that's your view, then I suggest that you consider a career in government.
 

Syrus28

macrumors 6502a
Feb 1, 2008
553
0
Peoria, AZ
This is a quite a convoluted bit of reasoning, but if you must know, as a theoretical position I advocated that nobody buy Microsoft products, as a way of thinking in terms of alternatives to Microsoft products at a time when almost nobody was. In fact I was one of the most prominent "anti-Microsoft" people on the net for some time. I retired from that field of battle years ago, after the antitrust cases against Microsoft restricted their abilities to restrain trade, and after it became so painfully obvious that without these methods they were going to struggle with marketing new products. Apple's resurgence only iced the cake. So I no longer worry about Microsoft. I now find them more comical than dangerous.
If that's the case, it seems your retirement was premature then. Microsoft is posting record profits, all while becoming a household name with the presence of the Xbox, Zune, WinMo, and computer hardware. It seems Microsoft is more "dangerous" than ever. :D

So in your paranoid and egotistical terms, I had nothing better to do. If you say so, it must right.
Actually, that was referring to others on this forum. Your one of the more sensible ones around here.

In any case, for my current thinking on this issue, you might want to re-read what I wrote. Might help if you were responding to that, instead of some imagined person saying some conveniently imagined things.
Imagined? What did I respond to that was imagined?

Really. Yes, it seems we do have to explain over and over again what it means to have an honest debate. An honest debate is to respond to an argument with an argument. Name calling is just name calling. It's a cover for the likely fact that you have no argument to make.
I agree, it's not an argument. That's why I don't use it. However, I can't help but think its a damn accurate way to describe some people on these forums.

I'm not going to repeat everything I've said already, but the point in general is that Microsoft has had great difficulty with creating profitable products outside of operating systems and software. You may not believe that profits matter in business, but if that's your view, then I suggest that you consider a career in government.
Oh, that's a story. "World's Largest Software Company Has Trouble Outside of Software". Besides, Microsoft's only non-software division, the E&D Division, which is, in fact, profitable.

Microsoft knew it would have to invest heavily to expand into other markets. And guess what? It did, and now it's profitable. The Xbox is a household name, the Zune is a nice alternative to the iPod, and they are the 2nd largest computer hardware maker. Is that not success?
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Microsoft's profits are not an indicator of whether they are "dangerous." What I was concerned about for years was their ability to decide winners and losers and to control the direction of technology, and the illegal means they employed to do so. They don't have much of that power any longer, and they have indeed flailed around for a direction outside of their core markets. If Apple bought their way into new markets with the "plan" of losing money for years in the hopes of making a profit some day, then I don't think you or anyone else would be so impressed or calling it a great success even if they managed to get to profits. But this is exactly what Microsoft is doing.
 

Syrus28

macrumors 6502a
Feb 1, 2008
553
0
Peoria, AZ
Microsoft's profits are not an indicator of whether they are "dangerous." What I was concerned about for years was their ability to decide winners and losers and to control the direction of technology, and the illegal means they employed to do so. They don't have much of that power any longer, and they have indeed flailed around for a direction outside of their core markets.
That's an awful broad statement there, and I can't help but think your overemphasizing the power Microsoft possessed. Examples?

If Apple bought their way into new markets with the "plan" of losing money for years in the hopes of making a profit some day, then I don't think you or anyone else would be so impressed or calling it a great success even if they managed to get to profits. But this is exactly what Microsoft is doing.
When Apple enters the gaming market, we can compare. There's an unnatural amount of brand loyalty involved (much like Macs vs PC) and Microsoft wasn't going to get anywhere without being competitive.

Microsoft was a fresh entrance to the gaming market, planning to bringing something innovative (hard drive and Xbox Live). To compete against the PS2, however, it would also have to compete with the price. So they sold it at a loss with hopes for increased marketshare.

Not as much brand loyalty involved with Phones, with people switching to the latest and greatest every two years.
Apple was a fresh entrance to the mobile phone market, bringing multi-touch and a great UI. No phone at the time was nearly as attractive as the iPhone, and they priced it at $600 so they can keep margins up.
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
Microsoft's profits are not an indicator of whether they are "dangerous." What I was concerned about for years was their ability to decide winners and losers and to control the direction of technology, and the illegal means they employed to do so. They don't have much of that power any longer, and they have indeed flailed around for a direction outside of their core markets. If Apple bought their way into new markets with the "plan" of losing money for years in the hopes of making a profit some day, then I don't think you or anyone else would be so impressed or calling it a great success even if they managed to get to profits. But this is exactly what Microsoft is doing.

The counter to that on things like the Xbox for example is it could be argue Microsoft is looking long term. Like 10-15 years down the road and not just in 1-2 years time but really long term with those moves.

People bashed Microsoft for the Xbox project when they began. They even anounced they never intended for the orginal Xbox ever break even. It was made to get into the market. The 360 in a given year has made money for them. Hell Microsoft did play pretty smart seeing computers going to be media centers.

Today it is not uncomon to see homes with 2-3 computers as they get replaced. The media center computer is quite often an older computer that does not have as much uses. I plan on turning my PC when I replace it in the next year or so to a media center box. Not like it takes much processing power to play movies or DVDs that is streamed to the TV.
 

Syrus28

macrumors 6502a
Feb 1, 2008
553
0
Peoria, AZ
^^

That's true too. Microsoft and Apple's philosophies are very different. The vast difference in beliefs of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates no doubt play a role.

Bill Gates wanted to put a computer running Microsoft software in every home. He retired from a day-to-day working at Microsoft to run his charity foundation. Microsoft seems to take Bill's approach, with the "money no object" and focus on marketshare with plans to make it profitable later. They spend now, profit later. They believe by increasing their marketshare, they will profit immensely once they increase their margins. They seem to be more about the long-term.

Steve wanted to make a sexy, innovative product to sell. He started charity in the 1980s, but gave it up once he discovered how time-consuming such business can be. Apple takes his approach, very conservative on how they spend money. They will trade market-share for profitability. They prefer to increase their marketshare AFTER becoming profitable. They are very focused on the present.

Which one's business strategy pay's off in the end will be interesting, no doubt.
 

kabunaru

Guest
Jan 28, 2008
3,226
5
Q: Why do people still buy Microsoft?
A: Because Microsoft still dominates the field.

As simple as that.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
That's an awful broad statement there, and I can't help but think your overemphasizing the power Microsoft possessed. Examples?

Not in the slightest. Look up U.S. v. Microsoft. Please don't make me explain ten years worth of complex and detailed history. The wikipedia article on the case is a start.

It amazes me that I can still find people who will argue this point, after all that has happened and all that has been written about Microsoft's multiple losing encounters with the law.

When Apple enters the gaming market, we can compare.

What about when Microsoft enters the digital music player market, as they also have, and lost money? Can we compare then, or is that an unfair comparison because it's also true?

The counter to that on things like the Xbox for example is it could be argue Microsoft is looking long term. Like 10-15 years down the road and not just in 1-2 years time but really long term with those moves.

People bashed Microsoft for the Xbox project when they began. They even anounced they never intended for the orginal Xbox ever break even. It was made to get into the market. The 360 in a given year has made money for them. Hell Microsoft did play pretty smart seeing computers going to be media centers.

Today it is not uncomon to see homes with 2-3 computers as they get replaced. The media center computer is quite often an older computer that does not have as much uses. I plan on turning my PC when I replace it in the next year or so to a media center box. Not like it takes much processing power to play movies or DVDs that is streamed to the TV.

I am not bashing the Xbox. I am simply reporting that they have lost money on it, that they entered this market with the intention of losing money on it for an unknown period of time. I am pointing out that if Apple did the same, that they would have been branded as a failure by the same people who defend Microsoft's efforts to make money on a new product but lose money instead.
 

FX120

macrumors 65816
May 18, 2007
1,173
235
I am not bashing the Xbox. I am simply reporting that they have lost money on it, that they entered this market with the intention of losing money on it for an unknown period of time. I am pointing out that if Apple did the same, that they would have been branded as a failure by the same people who defend Microsoft's efforts to make money on a new product but lose money instead.

The XBOX is more than just hardware to Microsoft, and no, I am not talking about market share.

Microsoft also makes TONS of money on accessories, and software for the console, in fact this is what has allowed them not to feel the 1+ billion dollars of repair costs for the 360, and allow the E&D devision to still post good profits. Much like cell cariers take a hit on cell phones to get you into a contract, Microsoft knows that if you buy a 360 and they loose a few bucks then, they'll easily make it up later. There is this confusion that Microsoft entered the gaming market to loose money, and this is simply not the case as the 360 as a platfom and a product for Microsoft would have been profitable from day one if it wasn't for the gigantic repair program.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
The XBOX is more than just hardware to Microsoft, and no, I am not talking about market share.

Microsoft also makes TONS of money on accessories, and software for the console, in fact this is what has allowed them not to feel the 1+ billion dollars of repair costs for the 360, and allow the E&D devision to still post good profits. Much like cell cariers take a hit on cell phones to get you into a contract, Microsoft knows that if you buy a 360 and they loose a few bucks then, they'll easily make it up later. There is this confusion that Microsoft entered the gaming market to loose money, and this is simply not the case as the 360 as a platfom and a product for Microsoft would have been profitable from day one if it wasn't for the gigantic repair program.

It had better be more than hardware, since they lose money on hardware. But then so do Nintendo and Sony. No, the point is the Xbox division has only recently begun to post quarterly profits, and this is after years of losses. They've got quite a hole to dig themselves out of, and it will take years. This was forecasted at the very beginning of the Xbox program, btw. So some of us at least are not surprised.

But again, the very simple point I am making here is that Apple could not attempt this kind of strategy without being branded as a failure. All of Apple's new products are expected to be profitable right out of the box, in fact very very profitable, or they will be seen to have failed. Nobody, at least not anybody outside of Apple, would be defending their "long term strategy" if the iPod or the iPhone had lost money for years on end.

Completely different standards of success apply to these two companies. When Microsoft tries something new, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will succeed, because that's what the conventional wisdom dictates will happen. For the same reason, when Apple tries something, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will fail. It's been that way -- forever.
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
It had better be more than hardware, since they lose money on hardware. But then so do Nintendo and Sony. No, the point is the Xbox division has only recently begun to post quarterly profits, and this is after years of losses. They've got quite a hole to dig themselves out of, and it will take years. This was forecasted at the very beginning of the Xbox program, btw. So some of us at least are not surprised.

But again, the very simple point I am making here is that Apple could not attempt this kind of strategy without being branded as a failure. All of Apple's new products are expected to be profitable right out of the box, in fact very very profitable, or they will be seen to have failed. Nobody, at least not anybody outside of Apple, would be defending their "long term strategy" if the iPod or the iPhone had lost money for years on end.

Completely different standards of success apply to these two companies. When Microsoft tries something new, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will succeed, because that's what the conventional wisdom dictates will happen. For the same reason, when Apple tries something, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will fail. It's been that way -- forever.

I think part of that problem with apple is they brought it on themselves on how they over hype everything. They brag about doing all this stuff and making money right out of the box. This prevents them from making a long term move and investment that does not turn a profit right out of the box, even if in the long run it is a much better idea.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
I think part of that problem with apple is they brought it on themselves on how they over hype everything. They brag about doing all this stuff and making money right out of the box. This prevents them from making a long term move and investment that does not turn a profit right out of the box, even if in the long run it is a much better idea.

Microsoft's marketing efforts may stink, but that doesn't suggest that Apple should get with the program and make theirs stink just as much.

Really, you are just illustrating my point. Of course Apple should make money on new products right away. This is called "a success." The difference is that Apple is expected to be "a success" with every new product they release, where in Microsoft's case, losing money isn't called "a failure," it's called "a strategy." Apparently you believe this as well.

It's far from clear to me what sort of "long term move" you think Apple ought to be making. Their last two new products were huge hits that were not only massively profitable, but redefined their categories. Apple stands to reap the benefits for years to come. If that's not a "long term move" then I guess I don't know what is.
 
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