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adrianlondon

macrumors 603
Nov 28, 2013
5,523
8,337
Switzerland
I'm interested in videos of presenters who use their phone instead of a remote. Maybe I'm overlooking something.
No, you're not. Physical buttons would be easier but I don't have such a device. Plus it's nice to see the current and next slide on the phone if I glance at it, rather than turning around to look at the slide.

Also, I present technical stuff so holding a phone and using that to switch slides and scribble on them looks ok to the audience :)
 
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jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
52
People use 365 and Teams on Macs because in the working world it is the best package for its purpose and a standard. I’d imagine like anything Apple, cross platform collaboration would be an absolute nightmare otherwise.
Well so the only reason to use Microsoft Office is because you are forced to use Microsoft Office, exactly. There is no good reason to use it otherwise.
 
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jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
52
No, you're not. Physical buttons would be easier but I don't have such a device. Plus it's nice to see the current and next slide on the phone if I glance at it, rather than turning around to look at the slide.

Also, I present technical stuff so holding a phone and using that to switch slides and scribble on them looks ok to the audience :)
I like that ability as well, you can do more using the iPhone as a presenter than you can do with those little presenter devices. The advantage of being an introvert, is that I do not care about what other people think when I am getting my work done.
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
May 17, 2008
8,727
3,892
Pages can do mail merges as well, so not much different than Word, in about 1/5 the size the package. PowerQuery is an ok feature, but I would rather use R or SQLite over using the bloatware that is Microsoft Office. Not much use for VBA today unless you are delivering malware. You cannot turn Excel workbooks into applications. Being a software developer and cybersecurity professional, there are better tools available to accomplish what people use Excel to perform.

There are, but simpleton people who do not know how to write software can not do it. Doing it in excel is the easier path. I keep hearing people in corporates always have some sort of script or method to do things in Excel. I heard there is a saying "I bet I can do that in Excel"...whatever "that" is.

What?!

In my opinion, that's totally not true. Word is SO MUCH BETTER and has so many more features. The UI layout is much easier to understand, and it doesn't have weird submenus for fonts and stuff.

Word has a built-in thesaurus, which I use all the time, as well as easy ways to create bibliographies and other citations. Pages, as far as I'm aware, has none of that.

Same goes for Outlook—does Apple Mail have a built-in calendar? NO! Does Outlook download attachments automatically (soooo annoying)? NO!

If you know your way around, MS WORD will be easier and more convenient for you. For someone like me who have not used Word in aeons, I found Pages much easier and actually functions better.

That maybe your opinion, but thankfully I make decisions only based on my option. Pages does not need to have any of that extra crap because it is built-in to macOS, iPadOS, and iOS, so duplicating that functionality is a waste of effort. I realize that Microsoft does not include that in Windows so they include it in Office.

I hate the convoluted/bloat Microsoft software. But it remains the most capable one, that is if you are able to get it working. Nothing as capable as Excel as far as I know, not to mention people who know how to work with it, the community, and the online resources.

It mostly comes down to collaboration when it comes to Pages vs. Word. If there's a document somebody else needs to redline, it has to be Word because that's the platform everybody is on. Otherwise Pages is decent enough.

Keynote is extremely good, and I use it more than I do Powerpoint.

Numbers is useless and shouldn't even ship. Excel or failing that, Google Sheets absolutely dominate.

Google Sheets? That one looks even less capable than Apple Numbers

Actually Google should not exist at all, a solution looking for a problem. Numbers is actually the best designed spreadsheet application that I have used (Excel, Quattro Pro, Lotus 1-2-3, etc.). The best part is that you do not have to use Microsoft Word to allow people to access a document.

I am surprised that Quattro and Word Perfect still exists. I am baffled why would any one still be buying that.

The other thing that people do not realize about Pages is that it also replaced Publisher, because Pages is both a word processor and page layout application. People know Microsoft Office because Microsoft gives it to universities to get people hooked on their product and turn them into lifelong subscribers to their mediocre product.

I found doing page layouts much easier in Pages and strait forward. I do not know if it as easy on Word but I know Word has a reputation for breaking the formatting if you mis use something. I do not know if this still remains the case.

I might use the Microsoft 365 website to verify the formatting, but installing 1.23 GB application to simply verify formatting is not really something that I want to do.

I have bad news for you. I was given .docx word, I opened it in Office online, still hugely messed up the formatting. out of all the apps I used I noticed that Office purposely mess that apps documents to make you feel "they are incompatible" so you get an Office license. Meanwhile other apps do their best to open Office documents


People use 365 and Teams on Macs because in the working world it is the best package for its purpose and a standard. I’d imagine like anything Apple, cross platform collaboration would be an absolute nightmare otherwise.

This right here. Office winning ticket incompatibility with others and they will do their best to keep it that way. Some sort of movement should be done as I heard Open Document format is good enough.

I wish if somehow all FOSS organization would collaborate to make ODF the standard and LibreOffice a 1:1 replacement for MS Office. Something like NextCloud+LibreOffice integration can work wonders.
 
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jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
52
There are, but simpleton people who do not know how to write software can not do it. Doing it in excel is the easier path. I keep hearing people in corporates always have some sort of script or method to do things in Excel. I heard there is a saying "I bet I can do that in Excel"...whatever "that" is.



If you know your way around, MS WORD will be easier and more convenient for you. For someone like me who have not used Word in aeons, I found Pages much easier and actually functions better.



I hate the convoluted/bloat Microsoft software. But it remains the most capable one, that is if you are able to get it working. Nothing as capable as Excel as far as I know, not to mention people who know how to work with it, the community, and the online resources.



Google Sheets? That one looks even less capable than Apple Numbers



I am surprised that Quattro and Word Perfect still exists. I am baffled why would any one still be buying that.



I found doing page layouts much easier in Pages and strait forward. I do not know if it as easy on Word but I know Word has a reputation for breaking the formatting if you mis use something. I do not know if this still remains the case.



I have bad news for you. I was given .docx word, I opened it in Office online, still hugely messed up the formatting. out of all the apps I used I noticed that Office purposely mess that apps documents to make you feel "they are incompatible" so you get an Office license. Meanwhile other apps do their best to open Office documents




This right here. Office winning ticket incompatibility with others and they will do their best to keep it that way. Some sort of movement should be done as I heard Open Document format is good enough.

I wish if somehow all FOSS organization would collaborate to make ODF the standard and LibreOffice a 1:1 replacement for MS Office. Something like NextCloud+LibreOffice integration can work wonders.
Yes, Microsoft loves for you to have the option that Microsoft Office is the Winning ticket. Of course the only people that win by using Microsoft Office is Microsoft. I know my way in and out of Microsoft Office as I not only have used Microsoft Office since Office 4.3 on Windows 3.1, but I have also written VBA code to have Excel open Autocad drawings, insert symbols, and plot the drawings. As for Page Layout in Microsoft Word, forget about it. You should be using Microsoft Publisher instead. There are reasons why people still purchase WordPerfect and Quattro Pro, the only reason I can come up with is because it is not Microsoft Office. Open Source Software will never be able to compete until you hire the developers to work on it full-time, and that is not going to happen because you have no revenue to hire software developers to work on it full-time. I have been using Pages, Numbers, and Keynote for the last eleven years and nobody has really noticed that I was not using Microsoft Office from the files that I have submitted. The only real noticeable difference comes with Numbers exporting to Excel, because of the pure page of cells layout of Excel and Numbers uses a canvas with objects laid out in manor approach. As far as Google Sheets, it has always been a joke more than a competitor to even the DOS version of Lotus 1-2-3. But the end of the day, you have to make your own decision about the software you use and the only reason to use Microsoft Office is to continually pay Microsoft for doing very little work on Microsoft Office other than rearranging the interface of Microsoft Office.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,403
13,285
where hip is spoken
I wish if somehow all FOSS organization would collaborate to make ODF the standard and LibreOffice a 1:1 replacement for MS Office. Something like NextCloud+LibreOffice integration can work wonders.
Cross-collaboration among apps that support odf work surprisingly well. The problem is, although Microsoft updated the Office suite to support ODF 1.3, Office still botches things when writing to odf files. It's going to take something like the EU to require odf format for official documents before MS cleans up their act.
 

jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
52
Cross-collaboration among apps that support odf work surprisingly well. The problem is, although Microsoft updated the Office suite to support ODF 1.3, Office still botches things when writing to odf files. It's going to take something like the EU to require odf format for official documents before MS cleans up their act.
The EU or any government does not have the right or privilege to require any person or organization to do anything. If the government is a dictator, then it needs to be overthrown.
 
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MacBH928

macrumors G3
May 17, 2008
8,727
3,892
Yes, Microsoft loves for you to have the option that Microsoft Office is the Winning ticket. Of course the only people that win by using Microsoft Office is Microsoft. I know my way in and out of Microsoft Office as I not only have used Microsoft Office since Office 4.3 on Windows 3.1, but I have also written VBA code to have Excel open Autocad drawings, insert symbols, and plot the drawings. As for Page Layout in Microsoft Word, forget about it. You should be using Microsoft Publisher instead.

I am surprised how capable you are yet you still prefer Pages over Microsoft. Most "PROs" seem to highly prefer Office especially for work environment. I have to say myself I have found it more capable for business environment, at least it has much more resources and community with HOW-TOs and Q&As.

Open Source Software will never be able to compete until you hire the developers to work on it full-time, and that is not going to happen because you have no revenue to hire software developers to work on it full-time.

This is very understandable but I always imagines like 1000s of volunteers around the world could compensate for a dedicate team of developers.

I have been using Pages, Numbers, and Keynote for the last eleven years and nobody has really noticed that I was not using Microsoft Office from the files that I have submitted.

While most things should be intact, I noticed a lot of variance in formatting especially with fonts and placements of objects

But the end of the day, you have to make your own decision about the software you use and the only reason to use Microsoft Office is to continually pay Microsoft for doing very little work on Microsoft Office other than rearranging the interface of Microsoft Office.

Their Office suite is very well tied together as an environment for businesses to use. I hardly saw another competitor that does this. You might be able to do it by combining a different group of software together from different vendors but usually "centralization" is better. For example, 1 username is better than have a different user for email, cloud storage, and online office suite like OnlyOffice.

Cross-collaboration among apps that support odf work surprisingly well. The problem is, although Microsoft updated the Office suite to support ODF 1.3, Office still botches things when writing to odf files.

I 100% guarantee you they do it on purpose just to think that ODF is a "troublesome" format and better use .DOCX that "always works well" (because microsoft makes sure it does and botches others)

It's going to take something like the EU to require odf format for official documents before MS cleans up their act.

I agree, if governments officially uses FOSS document it will have much better support. That is the right direction. I would like to see a non-proprietary format that can be used cross apps to be the standard kind of like how HTML works with every app that supports it.

The EU or any government does not have the right or privilege to require any person or organization to do anything. If the government is a dictator, then it needs to be overthrown.

To an extent you are correct but @sracer is saying if the government uses it as the standard for themselves it will hugely benefit the ODF standard. Governments can support competition by their own activities with out forcing others in any one direction.

Its hard to define it but government interference sometimes is required to level the field in antitrust laws. They broke down Standard Oil for example and I believe they so did with Microsoft in 1999.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,403
13,285
where hip is spoken
I 100% guarantee you they do it on purpose just to think that ODF is a "troublesome" format and better use .DOCX that "always works well" (because microsoft makes sure it does and botches others)
Considering that very old versions of MS Office (2003, 2007, 2010) are far more compatible with the latest MS Office file formats than modern alternatives, I think that your assertion is a safe bet. It's the old, "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run" approach that Microsoft took back in the day.

Some will say that it is simply a myth, but I know from my first-hand experience during my career at IBM, interfacing with Microsoft on OS/2, that MS did indeed engage in those things. There's no reason to believe that they've changed.


I agree, if governments officially uses FOSS document it will have much better support. That is the right direction. I would like to see a non-proprietary format that can be used cross apps to be the standard kind of like how HTML works with every app that supports it.
The EU certainly has the structural support to do that. Perhaps one day they'll see the value in doing that.

I've been working on a project (that involves the Kindle Scribe) and have found that LibreOffice Writer is far superior to MS Word (for this particular project). Over 3000 pages, 1600+ hyperlinks. LibreOffice Writer handles it with little to no effort. MS Word chokes and crashes.

I thought that perhaps there were issues with hidden formatting crud, so I started to create a DOCX version from scratch. Copy and pasting plain text and then manually applying styles and defining and assigning hyperlinks. At about the 400 page (and 300 hyperlink) mark, Word started choking.

Just another example of the right tool for the job.
 

SnowCrocodile

macrumors 6502
Nov 21, 2022
483
483
SouthEast of Northern MidWest
This is very understandable but I always imagines like 1000s of volunteers around the world could compensate for a dedicate team of developers.
It inevitably results in fragmented code with an assortment of issues and very different approaches to doing similar things.

Another big problem that the open source community has is a rather cavalier approach to is code security and the ease with which thousands of anonymous, globally distributed contributors may inject bugs, vulnerabilities and backdoors, whether by chance or deliberately. There’s simply no way for the relatively small number of *qualified* volunteer security researchers to check the ongoing volume of contributed code. There’s too few of them, they have demanding day jobs, and there’s too much code. And proper security checks are much, much more involved than simple QA. And require special expertise.

Even in critical code like Linux kernel they find major vulnerabilities that have been around for 10-15 years. In the open source “million eyes on it” code. It got to the point that the DOD has a couple years ago launched a program to secure Linux, given that it’s the backbone of the internet and many financial institutions. But they are not going to bother with Open Office.
 
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jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
52
I am surprised how capable you are yet you still prefer Pages over Microsoft. Most "PROs" seem to highly prefer Office especially for work environment. I have to say myself I have found it more capable for business environment, at least it has much more resources and community with HOW-TOs and Q&As.



This is very understandable but I always imagines like 1000s of volunteers around the world could compensate for a dedicate team of developers.



While most things should be intact, I noticed a lot of variance in formatting especially with fonts and placements of objects



Their Office suite is very well tied together as an environment for businesses to use. I hardly saw another competitor that does this. You might be able to do it by combining a different group of software together from different vendors but usually "centralization" is better. For example, 1 username is better than have a different user for email, cloud storage, and online office suite like OnlyOffice.



I 100% guarantee you they do it on purpose just to think that ODF is a "troublesome" format and better use .DOCX that "always works well" (because microsoft makes sure it does and botches others)



I agree, if governments officially uses FOSS document it will have much better support. That is the right direction. I would like to see a non-proprietary format that can be used cross apps to be the standard kind of like how HTML works with every app that supports it.



To an extent you are correct but @sracer is saying if the government uses it as the standard for themselves it will hugely benefit the ODF standard. Governments can support competition by their own activities with out forcing others in any one direction.

Its hard to define it but government interference sometimes is required to level the field in antitrust laws. They broke down Standard Oil for example and I believe they so did with Microsoft in 1999.
I prefer Apple iWork over Microsoft Office due to a couple of factors, simplicity of Apple iWorks and follows the ideal of doing a simple thing and doing it well. Each of the applications that make up iWork do their tasks extremely well. The second is that Microsoft Office has gone subscription and I will not continually pay for the basic functionality provided by Microsoft Office. On the Mac, just Word, Excel, and PowerPoint are over three gigabytes, while Apple iWork is less than two gigabytes. The government represents a low bar, nothing that we should strive to put up as a standard. As a matter of fact, the government should be minimal as it was designed and only staffed part time.
The millions eyes on it, does not mean that experts are looking at the code, mostly idiots that have no idea on operating system theory. If open source software was good, then more than three percent globally would be using the software. It seems like most of the quality open source software has been around 50 years or so.
ODF will never become a standard because a majority of people simply focus on getting work done rather than some silly format. PDF is one of those odd standards as vendors provided an option to easily create PDFs. HTML is too much work to use as a documentation standard just like all markup languages.
I agree that usually it makes sense to use a single simple solution, but sometimes you realize that you are paying a lot of money for something that is needed once in a long while, like purchasing a pickup truck for towing a boat or camper. You spend more driving the truck daily due to increased fuel consumption, maintenance, etc than the benefit derived from having the truck.
Of course the most important point of why I switched to Apple iWork from Microsoft Office, I upgraded from custom built computers when I performed a cost analysis between building a computer and purchasing the equivalent Macintosh computer and concluded that at the time the costs were the same, unless I added one piece of software then the Windows machine costed around five times the cost of a Windows machine. The reason for upgrading from Microsoft Office to Apple iWork, because it was not available on the iPad & iPhone. Microsoft does not realize that the mobile platform is the future replacement for traditional computers. Of course one aspect that Apple does more than Microsoft, is they listen to their customers. Microsoft just simply does not care. Case in point, I submitted feedback to bring the Equation Editor from iBooks Author into Pages, Numbers, and Keynote and now it is there. I do not imagine that I was the only one to request this feature. Microsoft has no plans to update the APA Style from 6th Edition to 7th Edition despite the multiple requests to update the style.
 
Last edited:

SnowCrocodile

macrumors 6502
Nov 21, 2022
483
483
SouthEast of Northern MidWest
I prefer Apple iWork over Microsoft Office due to a couple of factors, simplicity of Apple iWorks and follows the ideal of doing a simple thing and doing it well. Each of the applications that make up iWork do their tasks extremely well. The second is that Microsoft Office has gone subscription and I will not continually pay for the basic functionality provided by Microsoft Office. On the Mac, just Word, Excel, and PowerPoint are over three gigabytes, while Apple iWork is less than two gigabytes. The government represents a low bar, nothing that we should strive to put up as a standard. As a matter of fact, the government should be minimal as it was designed and only staffed part time.
The millions eyes on it, does not mean that experts are looking at the code, mostly idiots that have no idea on operating system theory. If open source software was good, then more than three percent globally would be using the software. It seems like most of the quality open source software has been around 50 years or so.
ODF will never become a standard because a majority of people simply focus on getting work done rather than some silly format. PDF is one of those odd standards as vendors provided an option to easily create PDFs. HTML is too much work to use as a documentation standard just like all markup languages.
I agree that usually it makes sense to use a single simple solution, but sometimes you realize that you are paying a lot of money for something that is needed once in a long while, like purchasing a pickup truck for towing a boat or camper. You spend more driving the truck daily due to increased fuel consumption, maintenance, etc than the benefit derived from having the truck.
Of course the most important point of why I switched to Apple iWork from Microsoft Office, I upgraded from custom built computers when I performed a cost analysis between building a computer and purchasing the equivalent Macintosh computer and concluded that at the time the costs were the same, unless I added one piece of software then the Windows machine costed around five times the cost of a Windows machine. The reason for upgrading from Microsoft Office to Apple iWork, because it was not available on the iPad & iPhone. Microsoft does not realize that the mobile platform is the future replacement for traditional computers. Of course one aspect that Apple does more than Microsoft, is they listen to their customers. Microsoft just simply does not care. Case in point, I submitted feedback to bring the Equation Editor from iBooks Author into Pages, Numbers, and Keynote and now it is there. I do not imagine that I was the only one to request this feature. Microsoft has no plans to update the APA Style from 6th Edition to 7th Edition despite the multiple requests to update the style.
Don’t know when you last looked at it, but Office has been available on iOS / iPad for years.

I have a few major issues with Numbers:

1) It’s not cross platform and using the web interface is very slow.

2) There’s no other suite that can open Numbers sheets. Alternatively, pretty much any 3rd party app can open an Excel spreadsheet. This makes using Numbers for very long term documents iffy - I may not have Apple devices 15 years from now. But I know that I will have at least some app capable of opening Excel files on any platform.

3) Filtering is unnecessarily complicated and time consuming, compared to Excel. I use on-the-fly filtering all the time, especially on mobile.

4) No formula-based conditional formatting. This is also something I use all the time. I guess I could live without it, but it definitely adds to the reason I don’t use Numbers anymore.
 

jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
52
Don’t know when you last looked at it, but Office has been available on iOS / iPad for years.

I have a few major issues with Numbers:

1) It’s not cross platform and using the web interface is very slow.

2) There’s no other suite that can open Numbers sheets. Alternatively, pretty much any 3rd party app can open an Excel spreadsheet. This makes using Numbers for very long term documents iffy - I may not have Apple devices 15 years from now. But I know that I will have at least some app capable of opening Excel files on any platform.

3) Filtering is unnecessarily complicated and time consuming, compared to Excel. I use on-the-fly filtering all the time, especially on mobile.

4) No formula-based conditional formatting. This is also something I use all the time. I guess I could live without it, but it definitely adds to the reason I don’t use Numbers anymore.
Yes, I know that Microsoft Office is now available on iPadOS/iOS, but it is less functional than Apple iWork. I do not use Windows therefore cross platform compatibility is irrelevant as I will never downgrade back to Windows. I can always export to Excel for the poor people that are still using Excel. I find the filtering in Numbers much better user interface wise than using Excel, although I can understand when you are used to using Excel. I do not use conditional based formatting but with a slight adaption in process, you can effect the same result. If these are you issues with using Numbers, then by all means spend extra money on Microsoft Office. As I have stated, I have replaced all of Microsoft Office (Word, Access, Publisher, Excel, & PowerPoint) with Apple iWork and there is no force in this world that would ever convince me to downgrade back to Microsoft Office.
 

jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
52
Considering that very old versions of MS Office (2003, 2007, 2010) are far more compatible with the latest MS Office file formats than modern alternatives, I think that your assertion is a safe bet. It's the old, "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run" approach that Microsoft took back in the day.

Some will say that it is simply a myth, but I know from my first-hand experience during my career at IBM, interfacing with Microsoft on OS/2, that MS did indeed engage in those things. There's no reason to believe that they've changed.



The EU certainly has the structural support to do that. Perhaps one day they'll see the value in doing that.

I've been working on a project (that involves the Kindle Scribe) and have found that LibreOffice Writer is far superior to MS Word (for this particular project). Over 3000 pages, 1600+ hyperlinks. LibreOffice Writer handles it with little to no effort. MS Word chokes and crashes.

I thought that perhaps there were issues with hidden formatting crud, so I started to create a DOCX version from scratch. Copy and pasting plain text and then manually applying styles and defining and assigning hyperlinks. At about the 400 page (and 300 hyperlink) mark, Word started choking.

Just another example of the right tool for the job.
You know, that does not surprise me about Microsoft engaging in anti-competitive behavior. I view the EU as at least twice as corrupt as any other government, so the industry would have to make better decisions than they would. If the industry adopts a standard, it should be something like the NACS for EVs, where the document format should be adopted by the vendors of products, to allow exporting to that format. No government should be allowed to dictate any such standard to the industry, it should be up to experts in the industry not politicians that would not know anything about technology. I think that PDF or EPUB is an ideal format for sharing information. The collaboration choice will be kind of hard because it would need to be something robust and nothing seems to fit that requirement.
The biggest problem with LibreOffice is the requirement to have Java. This is an exclusionary requirement that would prevent me from installing and utilizing the software. There are many people that avoid using Microsoft Word when doing research. The point about Microsoft Word choking after 400 pages might be a reason why some still use WordPerfect. Of course WordPerfect is now limited to Windows where at one time it was available on macOS as well as several UNIX/UNIX-like environments.
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
May 17, 2008
8,727
3,892
I thought that perhaps there were issues with hidden formatting crud, so I started to create a DOCX version from scratch. Copy and pasting plain text and then manually applying styles and defining and assigning hyperlinks. At about the 400 page (and 300 hyperlink) mark, Word started choking.

Just another example of the right tool for the job.

This is surprising to hear since Word has the "dedicated, pro, and paid support" . One would think LibreOffice would be going crazy.

Even in critical code like Linux kernel they find major vulnerabilities that have been around for 10-15 years. In the open source “million eyes on it” code. It got to the point that the DOD has a couple years ago launched a program to secure Linux, given that it’s the backbone of the internet and many financial institutions. But they are not going to bother with Open Office.

I think all universities in the world should make their programming students do a project by helping FOSS software and improving it a little bit. This way effort is distributed. Students get to learn and community benefits from the effort. Business that use FOSS software should at least sponsor 1 full time employee on FOSS software they use.

Depends on the size of the organization though. Lets assume 1 full time employee will be $5K/month, that is equal to 416 Office subscriptions. You need an organization with like 1000 employees to justify the price but then again, Office 365 is loaded with apps and online storage and pro support. MS know what they are doing.


The millions eyes on it, does not mean that experts are looking at the code, mostly idiots that have no idea on operating system theory. If open source software was good, then more than three percent globally would be using the software. It seems like most of the quality open source software has been around 50 years or so.

I always imagined people doing FOSS are very talented not idiots. I mean there is a working photoshop, Windows, illustrator, MS Office alternative working for free. I wouldn't think they are "idiots".

What is the quality software that is as old as 50 years? The ones I know are linux and FreeBSD. FreeBSD is near unusable for the average joe.

HTML is too much work to use as a documentation standard just like all markup languages.

They could do a GUI interface that in the background builds an HTML file or markup language file although HTML is more feature-full than markup. This is what website design software does (Dreamweaver) , you design a website using tools but in the background its building an HTML file.

Don’t know when you last looked at it, but Office has been available on iOS / iPad for years.

I have a few major issues with Numbers:

1) It’s not cross platform and using the web interface is very slow.

2) There’s no other suite that can open Numbers sheets. Alternatively, pretty much any 3rd party app can open an Excel spreadsheet. This makes using Numbers for very long term documents iffy - I may not have Apple devices 15 years from now. But I know that I will have at least some app capable of opening Excel files on any platform.

3) Filtering is unnecessarily complicated and time consuming, compared to Excel. I use on-the-fly filtering all the time, especially on mobile.

4) No formula-based conditional formatting. This is also something I use all the time. I guess I could live without it, but it definitely adds to the reason I don’t use Numbers anymore.

I agree to many of the points you make.

As I have stated, I have replaced all of Microsoft Office (Word, Access, Publisher, Excel, & PowerPoint) with Apple iWork and there is no force in this world that would ever convince me to downgrade back to Microsoft Office.

What did you replace Access with?

The biggest problem with LibreOffice is the requirement to have Java.

The database needs java development kit. I didn't install java for the rest of the LO apps.

There are many people that avoid using Microsoft Word when doing research. The point about Microsoft Word choking after 400 pages might be a reason why some still use WordPerfect. Of course WordPerfect is now limited to Windows where at one time it was available on macOS as well as several UNIX/UNIX-like environments.
I am still baffled by this. I thought Word is what authors use to write books or text books.
 
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jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
52
This is surprising to hear since Word has the "dedicated, pro, and paid support" . One would think LibreOffice would be going crazy.



I think all universities in the world should make their programming students do a project by helping FOSS software and improving it a little bit. This way effort is distributed. Students get to learn and community benefits from the effort. Business that use FOSS software should at least sponsor 1 full time employee on FOSS software they use.

Depends on the size of the organization though. Lets assume 1 full time employee will be $5K/month, that is equal to 416 Office subscriptions. You need an organization with like 1000 employees to justify the price but then again, Office 365 is loaded with apps and online storage and pro support. MS know what they are doing.




I always imagined people doing FOSS are very talented not idiots. I mean there is a working photoshop, Windows, illustrator, MS Office alternative working for free. I wouldn't think they are "idiots".

What is the quality software that is as old as 50 years? The ones I know are linux and FreeBSD. FreeBSD is near unusable for the average joe.



They could do a GUI interface that in the background builds an HTML file or markup language file although HTML is more feature-full than markup. This is what website design software does (Dreamweaver) , you design a website using tools but in the background its building an HTML file.



I agree to many of the points you make.



What did you replace Access with?



The database needs java development kit. I didn't install java for the rest of the LO apps.


I am still baffled by this. I thought Word is what authors use to write books or text books.
I replaced Microsoft Access with Numbers, because I mainly used the databases tables more than any other feature. If I were going to focus on a relational database, it would be either SQLite or PostgreSQL. I classify anyone as an idiot if thye do not understand the theories behind what they are attempting to work upon. So unless you have learned Operating System Design, you would be an idiot for attempting to write code for any operating system. FOSS developers are less in number than professional software developers. Linux is not much more usable than FreeBSD, which is why only 3% of the global population uses one of the 1,500 different distributions of Linux. I stopped writing software when the web was being pushed, I would rather write real applications than writing scripts on a web server. School’s push students into using Microsoft Office. Not sure what many authors use for writing, but there are many options out there and I have read constant complaints about Microsoft Word.
 

jaw04005

macrumors 601
Aug 19, 2003
4,559
508
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The current versions of Mac Word and Excel seem very slow to me (M1 Max).

I prefer iWork by a mile especially the layout tools. Numbers is underpowered versus Excel and by far the weakest app, but I still like it. Keynote blows away PowerPoint and if you're familiar with PageMaker/InDesign/Quark you'll probably like Pages.

They need work on automatic conversions and saving. I should be able to just select save as a compatible Office document instead of having to export constantly.

However, iCloud is terrible for collaboration. I look forward to the day that iCloud gets spun out of Cue's division and more effort is put forth into it.

Apparently, the Soundjam/iTunes creator Jeff Robbin is running it as of April 2023, so hopefully it's given more consideration.
 
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jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
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The current versions of Mac Word and Excel seem very slow to me (M1 Max).

I prefer iWork by a mile especially the layout tools. Numbers is underpowered versus Excel and by far the weakest app, but I still like it. Keynote blows away PowerPoint and if you're familiar with PageMaker/InDesign/Quark you'll probably like Pages.

They need work on automatic conversions and saving. I should be able to just select save as a compatible Office document instead of having to export constantly.

However, iCloud is terrible for collaboration. I look forward to the day that iCloud gets spun out of Cue's division and more effort is put forth into it.

Apparently, the Soundjam/iTunes creator Jeff Robbin is running it as of April 2023, so hopefully it's given more consideration.
I have used collaboration with iCloud in frequently, but it has worked well enough for my needs. I actually have iCloud access turned off with the Advanced Data Protection and I have not needed to turn it on. InDesign was the most horrible application that I have ever tried to learn. It was like Adobe specifically designs applications to not be user friendly.
 

jaw04005

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Aug 19, 2003
4,559
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InDesign was the most horrible application that I have ever tried to learn. It was like Adobe specifically designs applications to not be user friendly.

InDesign comes from the Pagemaker/Quark world of actual paste-up (print, cut and glue) newspaper and magazine layouts. It was just never designed for consumers.

It's obviously a more powerful and professional tool than Pages, but unless you're designing layouts for corporate clients with color matching, specific fonts, assets, etc. I'm not sure why you'd use it.

I definitely wouldn't use it for small business or home projects. You can always export to PDF on the Mac if need be.
 
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jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
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InDesign comes from the Pagemaker/Quark world of actual paste-up (print, cut and glue) newspaper and magazine layouts. It was just never designed for consumers.

It's obviously a more powerful and professional tool than Pages, but unless you're designing layouts for corporate clients with color matching, specific fonts, assets, etc. I'm not sure why you'd use it.

I definitely wouldn't use it for small business or home projects. You can always export to PDF on the Mac if need be.
That was back in 2001 or so, back when I was attempting to build an electronic book for a project. I would not use it today. I have used Microsoft Publisher and Corel Draw for flyers and such in the past, but Pages is a much better program for my needs today. Of course Adobe InDeign is more powerful, that is why Adobe charges so much for access to the program. Today I have eliminated all of the expensive programs and simplified to Apple iWork. I have not paid for Microsoft Office since Office 97, and that is not going to change.
 

ipaqrat

macrumors 6502
Mar 28, 2017
379
419
I thought that perhaps there were issues with hidden formatting crud, so I started to create a DOCX version from scratch. Copy and pasting plain text and then manually applying styles and defining and assigning hyperlinks. At about the 400 page (and 300 hyperlink) mark, Word started choking.

Just another example of the right tool for the job.
Microsoft's guidance for long documents has always been to chunk 'em up in separate documents, THEN use a Master Document to consolidate them for TOC, contiguous line/page numbers, cross document search/replace, etc., etc.

I like LibraOffice as an alternative to MS. Back in my tech support days, I often used OpenOffice (this was well before the Libra fork) to recover MS Office Documents that were otherwise hopelessly corrupted.

Web versions of all the office suite apps are like oxygen masks in passenger planes: Barely enough to get down past 10,000 feet -- so the fire can really get going.
 
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jfreedle2

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2022
98
52
Microsoft's guidance for long documents has always been to chunk 'em up in separate documents, THEN use a Master Document to consolidate them for TOC, contiguous line/page numbers, cross document search/replace, etc., etc.

I like LibraOffice as an alternative to MS. Back in my tech support days, I often used OpenOffice (this was well before the Libra fork) to recover MS Office Documents that were otherwise hopelessly corrupted.

Web versions of all the office suite apps are like oxygen masks in passenger planes: Barely enough to get down past 10,000 feet -- so the fire can really get going.
The web versions are better than Google's offerings. I actually prefer real applications over using the web. A great day if when you never open the web browser.
I never liked the OpenOffice/LibreOffice and never used it beyond checking it out. I have never had a corrupted document in the past. In one of my past classes where a student had used either LibreOffice or OpenOffice (it has been a while since that class) where he could not open his presentation created in the other platform in PowerPoint proper. I cannot remember him ever able to recover the presentation and being able to present it. Probably had problem with some of the undocumented aspects of the PowerPoint format. This was prior to the OfficeOpenXML formats.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,403
13,285
where hip is spoken
Microsoft's guidance for long documents has always been to chunk 'em up in separate documents, THEN use a Master Document to consolidate them for TOC, contiguous line/page numbers, cross document search/replace, etc., etc.
Correct. I'm familiar with that... however it is not applicable for the document that I described.
 

ipaqrat

macrumors 6502
Mar 28, 2017
379
419
InDesign comes from the Pagemaker/Quark world of actual paste-up (print, cut and glue) newspaper and magazine layouts. It was just never designed for consumers.

It's obviously a more powerful and professional tool than Pages, but unless you're designing layouts for corporate clients with color matching, specific fonts, assets, etc. I'm not sure why you'd use it.

I definitely wouldn't use it for small business or home projects. You can always export to PDF on the Mac if need be.
I used to use InDesign or for EVERYthing, no matter how small. Over the years, I got so good with InDesign/Quark (and Freehand/Illustrator) that I'm faster with them than most folks are with Pages and templates -- especially when customers get fussy over teensy details (which is how you know when you've won). Even after all this time, it surprises me how often Apple and Microsoft both simply hit a wall. People are in love with Canva; so many walls.

I'm trying to get that good with Affinity Designer and Publisher (which are closing in on Adobe, if not quite there yet, and IMHO worth the learning curve and feature request investment, more than Pages or M$ Publisher will ever be.

I wants things how I wants 'em, when I wants 'em, not some other way because Apple or Microsoft haven't deigned to permit it. Not that I'm salty about it, or anything.
 

SnowCrocodile

macrumors 6502
Nov 21, 2022
483
483
SouthEast of Northern MidWest
This is surprising to hear since Word has the "dedicated, pro, and paid support" . One would think LibreOffice would be going crazy.



I think all universities in the world should make their programming students do a project by helping FOSS software and improving it a little bit. This way effort is distributed. Students get to learn and community benefits from the effort. Business that use FOSS software should at least sponsor 1 full time employee on FOSS software they use.

Depends on the size of the organization though. Lets assume 1 full time employee will be $5K/month, that is equal to 416 Office subscriptions. You need an organization with like 1000 employees to justify the price but then again, Office 365 is loaded with apps and online storage and pro support. MS know what they are doing.




I always imagined people doing FOSS are very talented not idiots. I mean there is a working photoshop, Windows, illustrator, MS Office alternative working for free. I wouldn't think they are "idiots".
Most certainly not idiots. However they still need to eat. So either (a) they are contributing to FOSS in their free time, and can only do so much, or (b) someone is paying them to do this full time. It can be a foundation like Mozilla, or a corporation that has vested commercial interest in a specific kind of FOSS, or some group of rich criminals or an unnamed spy agency that see this as a great way to snoop on devices. Most contributors probably fall into (a). But the bottom line is, there's never been real emphasis on security in FOSS space, starting with Linus Torvalds himself. Which is why I no longer run a Linux OS on my main home machine. Now, of course Windows and (gasp !) even Mac have vulnerabilities as well. But they are taking a whole lot more serious approach to it now than 20 years ago. FOSS is largely stuck in the mindset of 30 years ago.

Here's some food for thought.

 
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