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boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
6,394
7,647
Also plenty of us unrecognised ones too :)

Actually my org is mostly windows but everyone technical has a mac at home or for academic work.
Can confirm, my wife is a research scientist, she did her whole Ph.D. on a Mac (with remote supercomputer access for heavier stuff) and now leaves her work-issued Dell in a drawer for emergencies while doing everything on a MacBook Air.

I know a bunch of other people in her team do the same.
 

avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
1,226
1,073
Funny my M3 Max laptop is faster than my > $10k workstation. Sure the workstation is old ass tech, but it still shines a pretty good light of awesomeness on Apple Silicon.

Although I would also like Apple to design a desktop specific chip for the Mac Pro; although the ROI probably isn't worth it.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,092
22,158
Laptops have bad cooling design and throttle more than M in a Mac Mini. Also they cost more and are quite delicate, and only support one large display instead of two like Mini. And once they are plugged into displays and audio interfaces and instruments they are useless as laptops.

Ideally we want a new smaller Mini that, has all day battery, all the ports chip can handle, is a passive heat sink with no thermal throttling, and is inexpensive.
You want a battery powered Mac mini?
 
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HowardEv

macrumors 6502
Jun 1, 2018
470
326
Medford ma
You want a battery powered Mac mini?
Yes! Think differently to make the Mini much more useful, portable, and robust. We should pay a bit more to have a built in UPS battery. Better than an external UPS because it’s still easy to pull the cord out of the back of Mini when moving it and crash it. Plus the cord is massive and internal power supply is too. Enclosure could be much smaller if it used a laptop power brick like MacBook, even with added battery.
 

Jack Burton

macrumors 6502a
Feb 27, 2015
841
1,350
I have a neurological condition that makes me quite sensitive to heat. I built a PC before I was diagnosed.

My AMD 3950x and 3080Ti are FAST... but holy smokes, the heat, noise, and power use are something else. Was it worth it? I hate using it. My body hates rendering anything on it.

I can be happy with a Mac Studio, but I'm waiting a bit to get better GPU performance. I hope Mac Studio skips the m3 and goes to M4 Max. I hope to leave windows behind completely (just in time to avoid the AI Copilot + recall mess Microsoft thought people wanted). The new nVidia GPU's coming down the pipe are exciting, but honestly, the idea of upgrading my power supply and case to work with a giant GPU that has enormous power requirements doesn't excite me. Will I plug it in wrong and cause a fire? Will an angled adapter I use to plug into the inconveniently placed power port get recalled?

With new iPhone integration in Sequoia, it's very very tempting to move over again and have all my tech talk back and forth again. Android has been great in my car, but not so great when I'm on my macbook or PC tower.

Gotta see what Apple Carplay performance is like on my car's head unit. Right now Android is all google maps by default and the experience is excellent. If the new supercharged Siri can do everything I do with google assistant, bye bye Android/Windows.

I'm willing to settle for less performance now to avoid all the other B.S. associated with the most powerful PCs.
 
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crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,450
1,220
I have a neurological condition that makes me quite sensitive to heat. I built a PC before I was diagnosed.

I'm sorry to hear that. :(
My AMD 3950x and 3080Ti are FAST... but holy smokes, the heat, noise, and power use are something else. Was it worth it? I hate using it. My body hates rendering anything on it.

I can be happy with a Mac Studio, but I'm waiting a bit to get better GPU performance. I hope Mac Studio skips the m3 and goes to M4 Max. I hope to leave windows behind completely (just in time to avoid the AI Copilot + recall mess Microsoft thought people wanted). The new nVidia GPU's coming down the pipe are exciting, but honestly, the idea of upgrading my power supply and case to work with a giant GPU that has enormous power requirements doesn't excite me. Will I plug it in wrong and cause a fire? Will an angled adapter I use to plug into the inconveniently placed power port get recalled?

With new iPhone integration in Sequoia, it's very very tempting to move over again and have all my tech talk back and forth again. Android has been great in my car, but not so great when I'm on my macbook or PC tower.

Gotta see what Apple Carplay performance is like on my car's head unit. Right now Android is all google maps by default and the experience is excellent. If the new supercharged Siri can do everything I do with google assistant, bye bye Android/Windows.

I'm willing to settle for less performance now to avoid all the other B.S. associated with the most powerful PCs.

The current rumor is that indeed the Studio won't be updated until the M4 Max/Ultra, but at least for the M4 Ultra the rumor is that might be awhile (i.e. next year, but this comes from Gurman who can be unreliable outside of a few weeks from launch). No info as far as I know about the M4 Max Studio though, but one would suspect it would launch at the same time as the M4 Ultra Studio. It might not of course and the rumor may be wrong.

BTW there is also a rumor about MediaTek and Nvidia launching an ARM based PC next year. If true, it'll be ARM-based and if it uses Nvidia's MaxQ design philosophy then altogether it could have similar wattage to an Apple machine. But at this point details are unknown and there's no official word on anything so it may not come to pass. The original rumor said we might get a preview in June, possibly at Computex, but that hasn't happened yet (June is obviously not over, but Computex has come and gone). But just in case, as something that might have the latest Nvidia GPU but also be lower power, I thought I'd pass the info on, rumor though it may be.

 
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arvinsim

macrumors 6502a
May 17, 2018
823
1,143
They don't need to bring out a "full fat" desktop CPU.

If they did then the only product it'd make any difference in would be the tower Mac Pro and that's the most expensive model that "nobody" is buying.
I am pretty sure that the chips in the Mac Studio(even the Ultra) aren't even close to reaching their thermal limit.
 

Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
457
272
how can Apple compete in the desktop class....
What you need to understand is that Apple is no longer in the hardware business, but the data-collection business. The latter wears the former as a skinsuit. It will happily sell $4,000 machines to graphics professionals, but what's really important is seeing that every student gets a free tablet to smash.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,092
22,158
Yes! Think differently to make the Mini much more useful, portable, and robust. We should pay a bit more to have a built in UPS battery. Better than an external UPS because it’s still easy to pull the cord out of the back of Mini when moving it and crash it. Plus the cord is massive and internal power supply is too. Enclosure could be much smaller if it used a laptop power brick like MacBook, even with added battery.
Okay just making sure that was the intention.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,092
22,158
What you need to understand is that Apple is no longer in the hardware business, but the data-collection business. The latter wears the former as a skinsuit. It will happily sell $4,000 machines to graphics professionals, but what's really important is seeing that every student gets a free tablet to smash.
What in gods name are you on about?

You think Ad placement in the App Store is somehow the future of a company pulling in hundreds of billions of dollars revenue for hardware every year?
 

arvinsim

macrumors 6502a
May 17, 2018
823
1,143
What in gods name are you on about?

You think Ad placement in the App Store is somehow the future of a company pulling in hundreds of billions of dollars revenue for hardware every year?
Smartphone market is saturated. Apple will still keep raking money but if they are looking at growth, relying on phone hardware is not enough.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,092
22,158
Smartphone market is saturated. Apple will still keep raking money but if they are looking at growth, relying on phone hardware is not enough.
But ads are not the answer.

Apple is already seeding the ground for their next mass market device, people just refuse to extrapolate into the future about 10 years.

In the meantime, unless iPhone sales drop off the map, the company is fine.
 
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AssassuN

macrumors member
Feb 27, 2011
72
67
Tbh I'm not sure how Mac Pros will work without any real upgradeability. Would Apple ever reintroduce modularity?
 
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Chuckeee

macrumors 68040
Aug 18, 2023
3,060
8,721
Southern California
Tbh I'm not sure how Mac Pros will work without any real upgradeability. Would Apple ever reintroduce modularity?
In my opinion, nope.

That train has left the station. The income from forcing all upgrades at purchase and profitability of forced obsolescence is too great. User upgradablity is gone. Although additional BTO options might be on the horizon as chiplets become integrated into the design.

Bit of a downer but trying to be realistic.
 
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AssassuN

macrumors member
Feb 27, 2011
72
67
In my opinion, nope.

That train has left the station. The income from forcing all upgrades at purchase and profitability of forced obsolescence is too great. User upgradablity is gone. Although additional BTO options might be on the horizon as chiplets become integrated into the design.

Bit of a downer but trying to be realistic.
That's unfortunate. I wish they'd at least make upgrade pricing more reasonable, but they have complete control on it, as long as the base model is priced attractively.
 
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NewOldStock

macrumors regular
Mar 20, 2023
224
159
One cpu/gpu for all three. Amazing isn’t it.
i get one pair of shoes for work and play and going out.
Just have to clean them up every now and then for going out.
Seriously I don’t get the issue. Internally who knows how these M4 ipad vs laptop vs imacs are made inside. Anyone have the schematics???..
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
Because if I'm using Mathematica interactively, and waiting x seconds for it to complete each operation, I don't care about how much time it would take on a PC, I care about how much time it's taking me on my Mac. Thus if I'm using a Mac laptop, and thinking of buying a Mac desktop, it's reasonable to wish the desktop took advantage of the fact that it is a desktop and offered a faster SC clock.

Something I’ve been curious about since the first M1 is how the IC design affects peak clock and power consumption. People knowledgeable in this matter have provided a lot of input and ideas, the full picture is still somewhat missing.

There is at least some evidence that Apple CPU cores are meticulously designed to provide peak performance at carefully chosen power levels. For example, power consumption of M4 starts climbing very quickly past 4.05ghz — the system reports 7 watts at 4.04Ghz, 7.5 watts at 4.1Ghz and 8.7 watts at 4.2Ghz. It costs 1 watt to climb the 50Mhz from 4.15 to 4.2 Ghz! Andrei F. from Anandtech described a similar effect starting from at least A12.

The crux of the question is this - are higher clocks actually feasible with the current design or is what we see the practical ceiling? It is clearly not economically viable to design separate core families for mobile and desktop use. In x86 land, it is a tradition trade mobile performance for higher desktop performance potential. Would Apple need to follow a similar route? Right now we get excellent mobile performance at mobile-level power targets, but we can't scale it futher. Would Apple Silicon that can scale further mean reduction is deliverable mobile performance? If that is indeed the case, then I think their strategy is sound. Laptops are the core of the Mac business, and it probably makes sense to prioritize 5% higher laptop performance instead of 5% higher desktop performance.

Anyway, just ruminating aloud :)
 
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crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,450
1,220
Something I’ve been curious about since the first M1 is how the IC design affects peak clock and power consumption. People knowledgeable in this matter have provided a lot of input and ideas, the full picture is still somewhat missing.

There is at least some evidence that Apple CPU cores are meticulously designed to provide peak performance at carefully chosen power levels. For example, power consumption of M4 starts climbing very quickly past 4.05ghz — the system reports 7 watts at 4.04Ghz, 7.5 watts at 4.1Ghz and 8.7 watts at 4.2Ghz. It costs 1 watt to climb the 50Mhz from 4.15 to 4.2 Ghz! Andrei F. from Anandtech described a similar effect starting from at least A12.

The crux of the question is this - are higher clocks actually feasible with the current design or is what we see the practical ceiling? It is clearly not economically viable to design separate core families for mobile and desktop use. In x86 land, it is a tradition trade mobile performance for higher desktop performance potential. Would Apple need to follow a similar route? Right now we get excellent mobile performance at mobile-level power targets, but we can't scale it futher. Would Apple Silicon that can scale further mean reduction is deliverable mobile performance? If that is indeed the case, then I think their strategy is sound. Laptops are the core of the Mac business, and it probably makes sense to prioritize 5% higher laptop performance instead of 5% higher desktop performance.

Anyway, just ruminating aloud :)
I guess I would slightly rephrase it as "Right now we get excellent desktop performance at mobile-level power targets, but we can't scale it further to get super-duper desktop performance." 🙃Like I get what @theorist9 is saying that he wants the max possible SC performance in an M4 Ultra regardless of how fast the base M4 is already compared to its competitors but I feel like that approach is partially what got Intel into so much trouble and Apple creeping up on SC power is ... well it's fine for now, but I do worry a little bit about the trend. Maybe as you say it's for naught and it's just a natural part of how processors evolve if they want to continue "being #1 overall", but I fundamentally agree that if forced to choose Apple would probably rather remain "#1 mobile".

As for the role IC design plays, I do wonder what the effect of 2nm GAA will be. I suspect GAA will actual make the targeting of clock speed and power even more specific as GAA promises to allow an even greater exactitude of balancing power and performance by varying the gate size for each transistor to get the exact balance the designer wants in the exact right paths of the processor. It allows for large amount of customization where widening the gate results in more performance for greater power loss, while narrowing it results in less power loss but less performance and you can mix and match as you please for every transistor. That's what TSMC, and other fabs, promise with this tech anyway.

=======

I think what some people are missing when they say a workstation CPU is too niche is that if Apple were to create a full workstation "Extreme" chip, to my mind the primary draw would not be the CPU at all, or at least not the CPU by itself - SC speed or the huge MC throughput both of which would be excellent but as mentioned many many times in this thread, of more niche interest than it once was. Rather, it would be the on die accelerators with that CPU and the huge memory pool of high bandwidth LPPDR on a device that might be expensive for an average user but is peanuts for the professional compared to buying anywhere near that level of GDDR/HBM memory. The massive CPU performance would be a bonus except as it aids in the calculations with the accelerators, which it can more easily do because they all share the same pool of RAM. It's that straddling of the consumer/professional divide that Apple likes to play in. Having a capable GPU, NPU, and other accelerators with that huge memory pool on a $10-15K device with a powerful CPU on die would be a unique solution. However, Apple still needs a few more features, especially on the GPU, to get there (and software). This wouldn't really be a competition with big iron, not right now but ... we've seen consistently how good enough consumer hardware almost always eventually replaces big iron in all but the most high powered of situations. So OpenAI won't buy hundreds of thousands of them, but a small firm? or the individual professional? who can't afford >$30K for a H100 or even more for a super chip? (and don't wait months or longer to get theirs). Hmmm ... to say nothing of graphics rendering and other applications like scientific compute which are increasingly moving to accelerators where they can. Plus you have that powerful CPU when you need it! And that's the target market Apple likes already for its professional/prosumer products.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
I guess I would slightly rephrase it as "Right now we get excellent desktop performance at mobile-level power targets, but we can't scale it further to get super-duper desktop performance." 🙃Like I get what @theorist9 is saying that he wants the max possible SC performance in an M4 Ultra regardless of how fast the base M4 is already compared to its competitors but I feel like that approach is partially what got Intel into so much trouble and Apple creeping up on SC power is ... well it's fine for now, but I do worry a little bit about the trend. Maybe as you say it's for naught and it's just a natural part of how processors evolve if they want to continue "being #1 overall", but I fundamentally agree that if forced to choose Apple would probably rather remain "#1 mobile".

I think power consumption is the key consideration here. Apple cores have been steadily increasing their power consumption but are still way below the typical enthusiast desktop levels. The way I understand @theorist9 question is why not use the higher thermal ceiling available on a large desktop and get some more performance along the way? I have been asking the same question myself. It's just that, looking at the power curves, I am not sure it is that much of an option with the current designs. This is what leads me to wonder whether the scaling is limited by the chip design itself to reach the high performance we have now and a more scalable core would not be able to have that same performance at the current power consumption targets. At the end of the day, it's like Germans like to say: everyone is cooking with water. The technology available to everyone is fundamentally the same, and while Apple has the edge of being on N3, it doesn't give them any magical scalability.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,450
1,220
I think power consumption is the key consideration here. Apple cores have been steadily increasing their power consumption but are still way below the typical enthusiast desktop levels. The way I understand @theorist9 question is why not use the higher thermal ceiling available on a large desktop and get some more performance along the way? I have been asking the same question myself. It's just that, looking at the power curves, I am not sure it is that much of an option with the current designs. This is what leads me to wonder whether the scaling is limited by the chip design itself to reach the high performance we have now and a more scalable core would not be able to have that same performance at the current power consumption targets. At the end of the day, it's like Germans like to say: everyone is cooking with water. The technology available to everyone is fundamentally the same, and while Apple has the edge of being on N3, it doesn't give them any magical scalability.
No I understand, silicon is silicon is silicon* and I agree with you Apple seems to push the limits of what's possible with its scaling already with its base chips and would have to redesign them to scale "desktop" chips more - it's just that if as fast as SC desktop chips as possible damn the watts became the design priority, that would inexorably lead them down the same path Intel took. However, I'll admit that I've talked about boosting GPU clocks for the Ultra and hypothetical Extreme. Taken to the extreme, I guess it's not that much different philosophically, but I'll add that in the context of Apple's actual chips I'd bet raising GPU performance through clocks is more doable for more reasonable power increases than SC CPU performance is.

*Unless you're in Finland Check my post on the other site ;)
 
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HowardEv

macrumors 6502
Jun 1, 2018
470
326
Medford ma
Okay just making sure that was the intention.
And it’s a good idea, right? I joined this forum to present this idea, hoping people would jump on board and push Apple to fix the problems with their product line and improve everyone’s productivity and convenience. But people want it to stay 2006. Mac Minis plug in and laptops are expensive and hot and that’s the way it shall always be.

Imagine being able to use your laptop on your lap, without loud fans and without it being delicately connected to usb and hdmi cables, because those are connected to the new battery powered full speed fanless Mini, wirelessly connected to your cool laptop. The mini and MacBook split combo could be the same price as a MacBook Pro now, and doubly useful and practical.

Please, back my idea for Apple to leave 2006 and step into future.
 
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