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arvinsim

macrumors 6502a
May 17, 2018
823
1,143
I think power consumption is the key consideration here. Apple cores have been steadily increasing their power consumption but are still way below the typical enthusiast desktop levels. The way I understand @theorist9 question is why not use the higher thermal ceiling available on a large desktop and get some more performance along the way? I have been asking the same question myself. It's just that, looking at the power curves, I am not sure it is that much of an option with the current designs. This is what leads me to wonder whether the scaling is limited by the chip design itself to reach the high performance we have now and a more scalable core would not be able to have that same performance at the current power consumption targets. At the end of the day, it's like Germans like to say: everyone is cooking with water. The technology available to everyone is fundamentally the same, and while Apple has the edge of being on N3, it doesn't give them any magical scalability.
I agree with your theory. I believe that if Apple could raise performance reasonably by increasing power consumption, they would have done it.

I think they found out that there is a point of dimnishing returns. Unfortunately, that point is likely not competitive with other desktop offerings.
 
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BayouTiger

macrumors 6502a
Jul 24, 2008
539
300
New Orleans
Reading through some of this, It seems that there are many that don't consider that Apple has for years decided that the CPUs were 'powerful enough" and were focused on parallel proccessing via the GPU Cores and now the Neural Engine. The comparisons to older architectures are pretty obsolete. Just as most benchmarks have little real world relevance without taking into account the software being used for production and it's optimization for the architecture. The days of just brute clock speed/core count (a la Threadripper) are not really relevant on the Mac side unless you are bound to some particular app. I dealt with that with Revit and others on the intel side.

I actually think a lot of these threads are from folks that do not actually work in high level production offices. No one actually wants to spend 8+ hours a day with a friggin vacuum cleaner under their desk. Silence is golden and batch the heavy stuff to a server farm with good parallelization in the closet.

As to the "modular" Mac, I think Apple made their play there with the Trash Can and it's 6 TB ports (very bleeding edge at the time). The expectation was to move storage to another box like the Pegasus and move the PCI devices to the TB busses. Maybe this was wishful thinking for TB1 at only 10gb/s, but I do think that was the plan. I think they expected third party developers to get on the bandwagon, but it never happened. I think it was a solid approach that would have been better realized had they made the format of the MP something stackable more like the Studio. And with Fiber TB cables things can be located away from the workstation. I am not sure why companies would prefer a dedicated "module" vs a TB4 connected one, but I know I am a minority there.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
In my penulutimate post I was distinguishing between whether the barrier was practical (the power vs. clock curve is too steep), or absolute (chips won't run stably at higher voltage). And I was suggesting it was the latter, since even with a steep curve, I thought a Studio or MP should be able to accommodate the power and thermals for a turbo boost on just one or two cores.

To put some acutual numbers to this, I'd like to know what the %power increase would be to boost a M4 core from 4.4 GHz (the current max clock) to, say, 5.0 GHz on a hypothetical M4 Ultra.

For the purposes of this back-of-the envelope calcuation, let's say the M4 Ultra will have 30 performance cores, i.e., 10x the 3 performance cores on the 9-core M4 iPad*. [M2 Max = 8 perf cores; M3 Max = 12 perf cores; so extrapolate that M4 Max would have 15 perf cores ⇒ M4 Ultra would have 30 perf cores.]

Thus we want:

(extra TDP to increase a single M4 core from 4.4 GHz to 5.0 GHz)/(10 x current all-core Max TDP on 9-core M4 iPad)

≈ est. % increase in TDP to add that turbo boost to an M4 Ultra.

Would you be able to supply those two numbers?

For instance, even if it's an extra 5W to do that SC boost, if the est max CPU TDP on an M4 Ultra w/o the boost is, say, 100 W, that's only a 5% increase in power.

*It's better to use the 9-core model, since it's more likely to tell us what the thermally unconstrained (or minimally constrained) per-core TDP (which is what we'd expect to see on the Ultra) would be than the 10-core model.

Ah, I see what you mean. I will try to collect some samples across a freqency range this weekend.


Reading through some of this, It seems that there are many that don't consider that Apple has for years decided that the CPUs were 'powerful enough" and were focused on parallel proccessing via the GPU Cores and now the Neural Engine.

if that were the case, Apple would not spend so much resources on improving the single-core performance. What they don't seem to care about is performance at any cost. Althogh their per-core power draw is steadily rising.
 

HowardEv

macrumors 6502
Jun 1, 2018
470
326
Medford ma
Nobody wants a battery-powered portable Mac mini, that is what laptops & tablets are for...
There isn’t any reason for line power anymore. A battery wouldn’t add much cost. It sucks to slightly move your mini and have the power cord pull out.

And it sucks to not be able to use your laptop because of cables connected to it. You are wrong, everyone wants a battery powered portable mini, but they are too loyal to Apple to criticize the current product line.
 
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mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,866
There isn’t any reason for line power anymore. A battery wouldn’t add much cost. It sucks to slightly move your mini and have the power cord pull out.

And it sucks to not be able to use your laptop because of cables connected to it. You are wrong, everyone wants a battery powered portable mini, but they are too loyal to Apple to criticize the current product line.
"Everyone agrees with me," says man with extreme outlier views.

It's not about being too loyal to criticize Apple, it's because a battery powered portable mini is a silly product concept.

If your power cord pulls out every time you move your mini slightly, maybe you need a tighter fitting power cord. Or maybe you don't understand how far you have to push it into the socket on the mini. Or maybe you're one of those people who don't understand that it's not a good idea to stretch cables to their absolute limits, so what you really need is an extension cord.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,059
There isn’t any reason for line power anymore. A battery wouldn’t add much cost. It sucks to slightly move your mini and have the power cord pull out.

And it sucks to not be able to use your laptop because of cables connected to it. You are wrong, everyone wants a battery powered portable mini....
That makes no sense. The only reason you'd want a battery-powered Mini is so that you can use it where power is unavailable, which means you'd also need a battery-powered screen.

Your issue is either than your plugs are too loose, or that your power cord is not long enough; the latter can be simply solved with an extension cord.

[Even if you were using it as a server, and wanted to maintain power during a blackout, you'd still need power for your other internet devices, in which case you'd have a UPS into which both your Mini and internet devices were plugged; you still don't need a battery inside the Mini.]
...but they are too loyal to Apple to criticize the current product line
Seriously, have you seen these forums? Criticism of Apple (as well as praise) is routine on MR.
 

thebart

macrumors 6502a
Feb 19, 2023
514
517
In my opinion, nope.

That train has left the station. The income from forcing all upgrades at purchase and profitability of forced obsolescence is too great. User upgradablity is gone. Although additional BTO options might be on the horizon as chiplets become integrated into the design.

Bit of a downer but trying to be realistic.
On the release of the last Mac Pro, they said in interview if you need discreet GPU and oodles of RAM you are not their customer
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,171
Stargate Command
There isn’t any reason for line power anymore. A battery wouldn’t add much cost. It sucks to slightly move your mini and have the power cord pull out.

And it sucks to not be able to use your laptop because of cables connected to it. You are wrong, everyone wants a battery powered portable mini, but they are too loyal to Apple to criticize the current product line.

Why not start a new thread that is a poll asking just that, how many want a battery powered portable mini...?

The results may shock you...!
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
And it’s a good idea, right? I joined this forum to present this idea, hoping people would jump on board and push Apple to fix the problems with their product line and improve everyone’s productivity and convenience. But people want it to stay 2006. Mac Minis plug in and laptops are expensive and hot and that’s the way it shall always be.

Imagine being able to use your laptop on your lap, without loud fans and without it being delicately connected to usb and hdmi cables, because those are connected to the new battery powered full speed fanless Mini, wirelessly connected to your cool laptop. The mini and MacBook split combo could be the same price as a MacBook Pro now, and doubly useful and practical.

Please, back my idea for Apple to leave 2006 and step into future.

Your rant here makes no sense, for a few reasons. Right now, I can use my laptop on my lap while compiling code, rendering 4K video, and streaming audio without it even getting slightly warm, being connected to power or any other device. What you seem to be advocating for is another portable device to connect to your laptop, which defeats the purpose of a laptop in the first place.
 
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dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
Yes, that is very reasonable



Precisely my thinking. Again, refer to M4 data I posted earlier: it costs 1 watt of power to go 50MHz from 4.15 to 4.2 GHz! That doesn’t look like there is much room for further scaling.

Given how Apple Silicon is designed, could some of that wattage be going to the SoC as a whole rather than just the CPU cores? There may be some level of internal scaling between the CPU/GPU/RAM that comes into play when adjusting core clock speeds.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
There isn’t any reason for line power anymore. A battery wouldn’t add much cost. It sucks to slightly move your mini and have the power cord pull out.

And it sucks to not be able to use your laptop because of cables connected to it. You are wrong, everyone wants a battery powered portable mini, but they are too loyal to Apple to criticize the current product line.

1. Why are you moving your Mini around while using it? Most people keep their desktop machines in one place and only move them when cleaning, rearranging their desk, or (on the PC side) upgrading.

2. I don't want or need a "battery powered portable mini". I have a MacBook Pro which runs circles around any Mini Apple has ever made, and I don't need a separate monitor, keyboard or mouse to go along with it. I would wager that the number of people who want a "battery powered portable mini" is far less than the number of people who don't.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
Given how Apple Silicon is designed, could some of that wattage be going to the SoC as a whole rather than just the CPU cores? There may be some level of internal scaling between the CPU/GPU/RAM that comes into play when adjusting core clock speeds.

The power consumption I report is the energy consumed per unit of time by the CPU core alone (more accurately, by the thread), as reported by Apples power controller. Of course, there is no way of knowing how accurate these are.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,171
Stargate Command
I don't want or need a "battery powered portable mini". I have a MacBook Pro which runs circles around any Mini Apple has ever made, and I don't need a separate monitor, keyboard or mouse to go along with it. I would wager that the number of people who want a "battery powered portable mini" is far less than the number of people who don't.

Check in here and vote appropriately...!
 

Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
457
272
Nobody wants a battery-powered portable Mac mini, that is what laptops & tablets are for...
A laptop with a dead screen is a pseudo-mini that fits in your bag better, has more ports, and is easier to take apart and upgrade (intel era only).
 

Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
457
272
2. I don't want or need a "battery powered portable mini". I have a MacBook Pro which runs circles around any Mini Apple has ever made, and I don't need a separate monitor, keyboard or mouse to go along with it.
Sure, nobody needs a 75" 4K OLED monitor, but, if you already have one, there's little reason to give Apple an extra thousand dollars for a crummy 16" worth.
I would wager that the number of people who want a "battery powered portable mini" is far less than the number of people who don't.
If so, I would wager it has more to do with Apple's by-now well-known track-record of screwing its customers with planned-obsolescence strategies involving batteries. (It debuted glued-in MBP batteries in 2012, IIRC, and has been hosing iPhone owners long before that.)
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
If so, I would wager it has more to do with Apple's by-now well-known track-record of screwing its customers with planned-obsolescence strategies involving batteries.

What planned obsolescence? Batteries can be swapped out quickly at a service center, it costs less than your car service. And the batteries last long enough that your average user never needs to even think about it.
 
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Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
457
272
What planned obsolescence? Batteries can be swapped out quickly at a service center, it costs less than your car service. And the batteries last long enough that your average user never needs to even think about it.
I am sure that you and the four people who liked your post are well aware of that fact that almost no one lives conveniently near a service center, where the lines are nowhere near "quick" at any time. Whereas in contrast, if you could just *buy* a battery and put it in yourself, and....
 
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MRMSFC

macrumors 6502
Jul 6, 2023
371
381
What planned obsolescence? Batteries can be swapped out quickly at a service center, it costs less than your car service. And the batteries last long enough that your average user never needs to even think about it.
It would be far better if the batteries could be bought new from the manufacturer and replaced by the end user. Like the poster above said, some of us live very far from Apple stores and have no places that are Apple certified for repairs.

It’s part of the reason Right to Repair is so important.
 
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Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
457
272
It'd be far better if "wear parts" could be bought from anybody. But Apple now solders in the drive and ram, and glues in the battery and screen. Crack your screen on an MB or an iMav now? Gotta replace the whole top-assembly now. (Glass-delicacy is probably the only reason it has a market for minis.) What an evil company. --Have I told you lately not to buy any MB made after 2015 or any Mac at all made after 2019? Consider it said again.
 
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ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,917
2,169
Redondo Beach, California
So Apple is not making hardware for businesses and people who work in the industries who value time over money and need high in work stations
their current line of Apple Silicon is very good. I'm running a local copy of Meta's Llama3 on my Mac at about 28 tokens per second.

Yes I could run faster on a high-end Linux PC with a large Nvidia GPU but that would cost double or more. Apple has cost-effective performance now if you write to their "metal" API. People complain about the cost of Apple RAM upgrades because they compare it to PC RAM. This is wrong. You should compare Apple's RAM cost to Nvidia's RAM cost. What does a 64GB Nvidia GPU cost? VRAM is expensive and all Apple RAM can be used as VRAM.

Try and price out a PC with 128GB of VRAM.

This is 2024 and today the engineers and scientists who run demanding workloads are doing AI.

As best as I can tell, Apple is working on placing Apple Silicon into their data centers for this "Apple Intelligence" thing because it is cheaper and uses less power. I think Apple is porting the Slurm Workload Manager to Mac. If Slurm does not imply big data, I don't know what does.
 
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ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,917
2,169
Redondo Beach, California
As best as I can tell, Apple is working on placing Apple Silicon into their data centers for this "Apple Intelligence" thing because it is cheaper and uses less power. I think Apple is porting the Slurm Workload Manager to Mac. If Slurm does not imply big data, I don't know what does.
Sorry, I forgot to finsh with my main point...

I think Apple's answer to addressing huge-size data processing tasks is NOT to build a huge Mac but to have a process where you can buy (say) 6 or maybe 100 Mac Studios and network them together. The parts are falling into place. We have Thunderbolt4 networking already (yes you can network two Macs with a 40GB connection today.). Next they will have a good workload manager to distribute the work and collect the results. I don't see this as coming this year.

One problem with our current AI is that bussines needs to pass a LOT of their internal data througfh it before they get much payback. Many are not going to like this and will want to run the AI in-house on hardware they own. Apple is goingto be in a position to do this and directly compete with Nvidia. They are right now building this for their own use.

(Source of above info,... Read the code in their recently released OpenELM it's on GitHub and is a snapshot of Apple's current work)
 

JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
People complain about the cost of Apple RAM upgrades because they compare it to PC RAM. This is wrong. You should compare Apple's RAM cost to Nvidia's RAM cost. What does a 64GB Nvidia GPU cost? VRAM is expensive and all Apple RAM can be used as VRAM.
You should compare the costs to the alternate products that meet your requirements. If you need a lot of RAM but have no need for a powerful GPU, PC RAM cost is the right comparison.

Integration is always a compromise. If your requirements are not close to the average, tightly integrated hardware is often poor value for money.

Additionally, VRAM is not really that expensive. Nvidia's data center GPUs are expensive, because Nvidia can't produce enough and people are willing to pay crazy money to get them. If Nvidia could get 10x more chips from TSMC, the prices would probably be something like 5x lower.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,917
2,169
Redondo Beach, California
Apple already makes computers powerful enough for all kinds of media processing. Even if you are writing a large orchestral score and need to need large amount of sample files in RAM. You can do that with the Mac Studio with room to spare. On the video side, we can scrub multiple tracks of UHD video.

Media is no longer the example application of the need for high-end computing. We are now able to buy an off-the-shelf "Studio" for about $6K or so that does this easily. We can complain that the price is too high for hobby use but $6k is a fraction of what a plumber pays for his tools. Or a fraction of the cost of the cameras.

What workflows would require higher-end computing? Maybe people are doing computational fluid dynamics for hypersonic aircraft. But only maybe a dozen places in the world work on that. Today the obvious use case is AI.

Apple is basically a cell phone company. They design chips for their phones. What has happened of late is the phone chips have gotten powerful enough that they can be adapted for use in computers.

The way forward for Apple to building more powerful desktop computers is not going to be placing 1,000 cores in one computer. A machine like that would never sell in quantities large enough to offset the development cost. But Apple will place 1,000+ cores in one "computer system" the system being a cluster of Macs connected by some very high speed network. This allows nearly unlimited computational power and Apple dooes not have to build low-valuer computers with ultra-specialized chips

I actualy remeber the days when I'd start a job on a computer then get up and go to the break room for coffee and maybe even switch to working on a secondary project and then check back to look at progress. That was the 1970's, 50 years ago. Most people do not need to do this anymore unless they work in AI development
 
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Christopher Pelham

macrumors newbie
Apr 7, 2022
13
16
NYC
Apple already makes computers powerful enough for all kinds of media processing. Even if you are writing a large orchestral score and need to need large amount of sample files in RAM. You can do that with the Mac Studio with room to spare. On the video side, we can scrub multiple tracks of UHD video.

Media is no longer the example application of the need for high-end computing. We are now able to buy an off-the-shelf "Studio" for about $6K or so that does this easily. We can complain that the price is too high for hobby use but $6k is a fraction of what a plumber pays for his tools. Or a fraction of the cost of the cameras.

What workflows would require higher-end computing? Maybe people are doing computational fluid dynamics for hypersonic aircraft. But only maybe a dozen places in the world work on that. Today the obvious use case is AI.

Apple is basically a cell phone company. They design chips for their phones. What has happened of late is the phone chips have gotten powerful enough that they can be adapted for use in computers.

The way forward for Apple to building more powerful desktop computers is not going to be placing 1,000 cores in one computer. A machine like that would never sell in quantities large enough to offset the development cost. But Apple will place 1,000+ cores in one "computer system" the system being a cluster of Macs connected by some very high speed network. This allows nearly unlimited computational power and Apple dooes not have to build low-valuer computers with ultra-specialized chips

I actualy remeber the days when I'd start a job on a computer then get up and go to the break room for coffee and maybe even switch to working on a secondary project and then check back to look at progress. That was the 1970's, 50 years ago. Most people do not need to do this anymore unless they work in AI development
Maybe CGI rendering for feature films and the like are also still offloaded to a closet of servers with some tasks still taking some time to complete?
 
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