Why dont schools switch to Macs yet

[kernkraft]

If schools didn't switch at the time of the eMac, they won't switch now, when all Apple computers are even more expensive.

The majority of people still use Windows and that is the platform where most educational software, fleet contracts and IT stuff is.

I don't think that Apple really wants to penetrate the educational market. They just want some sales, until it supports individuals buying an expensive Mac.

Creating a low-cost Mac for the educational market would not be difficult, yet they don't.

 

[Kieranic]

Well the cost is a huge factor for them. The cheapest mac they would use is an iMac at around $1200 a a piece.

Schools would get a discount if they buy in bulk.

My school uses Macs and at times, they're actually crap because students screw around with them and then the I.T. people put surveillance crap on them...

We have (generally) a Mac or two a room (Most are eMacs, teachers have Macbooks, Library and ICT room have iMacs and some of the newer rooms in the Library have the new thin iMacs). My school is pretty big so I have no idea where they got the money from

 

[Reventon]

From elementary to high school, all the schools I went to used Macs exclusively. Although, most of these were ancient Macintosh Classics or Apple IIes. My high school had Performas, then switched to tangerine coloured iMac G3s by the time I was in Grade 12. (I first surfed the net on one of those!) I'm not sure if they're still using Macs or switched to PCs, but if it is the latter it's probably due to money. The Toronto District School Board isn't exactly flushed with cash right now, and Macs aren't exactly cheap these days.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

My school never got them until I was a senior. Which IMO was inexcusable since I graduated in 2000. It really screwed those who didn't have computers at home and wanted to go into computer science.

Are you talking about getting computers or getting macs? If computers then I agree with you. If macs I do not agree with you.
I graduated HS in 2001 and all the labs and teachers computers were macs expect for one. That was the Computer Science lab which was PC. Back then and even today most of the major programing IDE are windows only and the more importantly the ones used to teach programing are windows only.
With the majority of the work force using windows based IDE's it makes since to teach it that way. On top of that there are not any really good programing IDE that I know of that are good for teaching that are Mac OS based.

Once you learn one programing language it is not hard to pick up another on your own time.

Schools would get a discount if they buy in bulk.

My school uses Macs and at times, they're actually crap because students screw around with them and then the I.T. people put surveillance crap on them...

We have (generally) a Mac or two a room (Most are eMacs, teachers have Macbooks, Library and ICT room have iMacs and some of the newer rooms in the Library have the new thin iMacs). My school is pretty big so I have no idea where they got the money from

So they get bulk discounts on dells as well so the point is the same.

Macs for school would be $1000-1200 a pop after the bulk discount compared to dells being 400-500 a piece. Life span of the computers would be about the same and dell offers much better support than apple.

Most if not all the IT over head cost would be the same for both systems because you would need the same amount of staff. Hardware cost for apple would be much MUCH higher in a factor of 2x. the iMacs are MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE overkill for what most schools need for there computers. There computers need to do basic word processing, email, and web surfing. The labs for students some basic educational software and some other items but not any powerful things.
Specialized classes tend to have their own labs and are not counted in the school wide IT.

 

[KnightWRX]

Back then and even today most of the major programing IDE are windows only and the more importantly the ones used to teach programing are windows only.
With the majority of the work force using windows based IDE's it makes since to teach it that way. On top of that there are not any really good programing IDE that I know of that are good for teaching that are Mac OS based.

What you're talking about is a major problem. Schools shouldn't be using IDEs. They shouldn't be teaching technologies or languages or frameworks.

First students should learn to program. Not write code, actually do the logic processing. This should be done as pseudo code so that it is clear what they are learning (branching, loops, conditions, storage).

Once that is done, they should use a Text editor and a compiler to write code. Not an IDE that hides all the build details. They should be learning how code goes from language specific statements to machine code. They should be involved in the build process. Type up a few command lines, generate object files, link them to appropriate libraries and then run the executable.

Programming classes these days are way too much about 1 specific language/technology. Students go in there, and they say "We have a Java class". They learn Java. Sit them down in front of a page of C code, they get confused even though the syntax is pretty similar. They forget that they know what if, while, for are. They forget they know what an int is, what a float is. All because "We learned Java, I don't know this C+ thing".

So seriously, Schools shouldn't be using Macs, but they shouldn't be using Windows either. Linux. No X, no desktop, plain old command line Linux. You want to learn something boy ? Type up! "But I want to multi-task!" CTRL-Z, bg, fg, jobs, & fool. But I want to have 2 text editors up at the same time! VTYs, Screen fool!

But I have 30 source files, I don't want to type in 30 different command lines. Makefiles fool!

 

[whippet6]

Not until they open it up.....

I am having MAJOR problems with an iTouch downloading the update. I've started a tally sheet and have counted over 30 crashes. Although I've emailed Apple about this problem several times, there has been no response.

However, my wife and I (in different districts) are both involved in the technology purchases for our school districts. When the sales rep came to give us "loaners" to try at home and there were problems, he even offered to drive to our house to straighten it out on a weekend. My wife bought a few for her district, I gave the loaner back on a hunch about over-eager sales reps.

Well, obviously I was right. Obviously Apple is not so "he'lpful" AFTER you purchase and their draconian policies prevent anyone else from correcting their problems - it's "their way or the highway". Needless to say, there will be NO Wacintosh purchases by either district until they show a more "helpful" approach after the purchase is made.

The internet and news is filled with horror stories of the Apple iTunes problem so it's not just me!

 

[Ttownbeast]

First step would be to research and apply for grants many teachers do this when funding for classroom materials is beyond the schools initial budget and the teacher is not capable of investing any of their own money in the classroom--you would be surprised at how much money many teachers tend to invest in their job out of their own pocket knowing full well that there is no financial return.

Best bet would be to buy the hardware in lots it is possible to get relatively fast processors between 1.5 and 2 gig a couple gigs of ram a piece and 80 gigs HD for around 100 bucks a piece--even used is better than nothing install Linux and network them using two or three as dedicated servers in the school building. That same 1200 bucks to get one Mac or 3 dells could just as easily get 7 or 8 working Linux boxes set up with parts to spare and a little bit of effort.

You can get 99% of the same kinds of software free that are available for Mac or Windows, and about 80% external hardware compatibility from my experience (but most peripherals that are supported are plug and play at least since most distributions come with all the drivers)--the only major drawback is lack of support requiring more self reliance when it comes to troubleshooting--I know that last one first hand I have been building a server now for 3 months and now I am just finally in the fine tuning stages (I am no computer expert--I didn't even have the "for dummies" book as a guide LOL).

 

[ouimetnick]

My middle school has a computer lab of 30 Dell Optiplexes, and another with Gateway (owned By Acer) computers. Then we have some old crappy ones with AMD, and some with pentium II (2). They have about 30 or something While non unibody MacBooks. Thats was Middle school. High school (goping to in September) has some Windows systems, and I know they have plenty of Macs. From what I hear, they have a Mac lab. In 2011 when I enter 10th grade, students must have a Mac portable. they can either buy it from the school (at once or make small payments), or buy it themselves. i'll be getting my Mac a year early, Late August 2010 so soon, I will own a base model 13" MBP. For those that can't get one, they will use one in school, but can not take it home with them.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

What you're talking about is a major problem. Schools shouldn't be using IDEs. They shouldn't be teaching technologies or languages or frameworks.

First students should learn to program. Not write code, actually do the logic processing. This should be done as pseudo code so that it is clear what they are learning (branching, loops, conditions, storage).

Once that is done, they should use a Text editor and a compiler to write code. Not an IDE that hides all the build details. They should be learning how code goes from language specific statements to machine code. They should be involved in the build process. Type up a few command lines, generate object files, link them to appropriate libraries and then run the executable.

Programming classes these days are way too much about 1 specific language/technology. Students go in there, and they say "We have a Java class". They learn Java. Sit them down in front of a page of C code, they get confused even though the syntax is pretty similar. They forget that they know what if, while, for are. They forget they know what an int is, what a float is. All because "We learned Java, I don't know this C+ thing".

So seriously, Schools shouldn't be using Macs, but they shouldn't be using Windows either. Linux. No X, no desktop, plain old command line Linux. You want to learn something boy ? Type up! "But I want to multi-task!" CTRL-Z, bg, fg, jobs, & fool. But I want to have 2 text editors up at the same time! VTYs, Screen fool!

But I have 30 source files, I don't want to type in 30 different command lines. Makefiles fool!

When I was in high school I programed in Turbo Pascal and that is where I learned the basic programing and the logic. In my college I did Visual basic.net, Visual basic and Java. I know a they all have little over lap and I used my learning of basic principles from the others to get threw my last class of java. It came in handy in some things because I knew how to do it in VB and I would Google how to do it in java.

I find using an IDE very helpful to learn if you do not abuse them. I used one in my java class because it made reading the code a lot easier so I was able to see my mistakes a lot easier. Good one I feel for Java is notePad++.
People you listed are stupid. If they can not hope between languages then something is wrong. In most programing from what I seen learning the first one is the hardest. After that it pretty easy to pick up a 2nd, and a 3rd.

Personal I have found for me in programing it has been very helpful to be able to have 2-3 files open at one time. Reason for it is it gives me frame of reference of other code to look at to figure stuff out but I am pretty good at reverse engineering another piece of code to figure out and understand how it works. From there I will modify it to do what I need it to do. That or apply multiple pieces together for what i need it to do.

Now in the fall I will be taking C++ but it should be a lot easier with Java under my belt since they have so much overlap and the syntax is mostly the same. I just have to learn the little things of it.

But for learning I still saying Windows platforms have the best software for learning and the most resources to learn on.

 

[KameronBriggs]

Yea, I've seen plenty of schools that have them.

 

[Kieranic]

There computers need to do basic word processing, email, and web surfing.

That's where your wrong (for my school anyway)

We have our special online system where we can upload files and download them from any computer (sort of like Dropbox or Windows Live Skydrive) and as such, we have Photoshop, Illustrator, iLife on each of the computers we have. Every recess I see students working on designs, movies etc. Of course, we have iMovie and Final Cut but I think that's limited to a couple of rooms (as in, the software has only been installed on the Macs in those select couple of rooms). The Macs need the power to handle all those tasks too.

Just remembered my primary school (aka early grade levels) had Macs too, but this was limited to only one room with a white iMac, the rest of the rooms that had computers in them had the 1999 iMacs and one room had an iMac with that spinning monitor connected to the base. We had a couple of Mac OS 9's too (one from the early 90s haha). Of course, management had some white iMacs and the higher-up teachers (aka, teachers for the highest 2 or grades) had MacBooks. We were only a small school however

 

[TSE]

This raises the question of if Apple should incorporate a new generation eMac, perhaps with AMD processors to lower the cost.

 

[blunderboy]

A new x86-based eMac would be a great idea, honestly.

In elementary school, all the computer labs had either Apples (mostly IIgs or IIe) or Macs. My middle school had Windows PCs in its computer lab—crappy eMachines running Windows 98, that is, and my first high school had Macs all over except for the networking lab, which had Windows PCs. My second high school had a couple of iMacs and a G4 in the art classroom, but PCs everywhere else, either running Windows NT or 2K.

 

[mlts22]

A new x86-based eMac would be a great idea, honestly.

In elementary school, all the computer labs had either Apples (mostly IIgs or IIe) or Macs. My middle school had Windows PCs in its computer lab—crappy eMachines running Windows 98, that is, and my first high school had Macs all over except for the networking lab, which had Windows PCs. My second high school had a couple of iMacs and a G4 in the art classroom, but PCs everywhere else, either running Windows NT or 2K.

+1 here. I can see an eMac being useful with the following features:

1: Being kid-resistant. And most parents know what is meant by this.

2: Something more sturdy than a Kensington cable slot. I'd like to see the lock inserts that were present on the Mac Plus to the Mac 2x come back, including the one for the keyboard. These would easily snap in and allow a cable lock to be run through everything, but be tough enough to withstand most pulling and tugging without tearing the case apart.

3: Ability to re-image a machine. No matter how good a school computer lab has security, there is always that one kid who manages to find a way in, and he will erase machines because he feels like it. What would be nice is a PXE based boot ability to boot machines and reinstall or reimage them.

4: Something like DeepFreeze. If one has worked with this tool, it is essential for a student lab, and easily pays for itself. Trashed computer? Reboot. It is fixed.

5: Some way of allowing admins to log on as root but not needing a password. Kids are excellent shoulder surfers, so it would be nice to have something other than password guessing. Perhaps a fingerprint scanner.

 

[muchadoaboutnot]

Microsoft dumps their licenses on schools with full support contracts. Cheap per seat licensing on Windows client OSes/server/Office. Ridiculously cheap. My friend tells me it's under $10 per seat per year for everything. It sounds like a good amount but when you consider that it includes everything- and 24/7 support- it's ridiculous.

Add that to the amount of Windows only software (which I will thankfully say is lessening, and I say that as a very content Windows user), and the familiarity of adults with Windows...

 

[highres]

Many have.

 

[PerfSeeker]

Microsoft dumps their licenses on schools with full support contracts. Cheap per seat licensing on Windows client OSes/server/Office. Ridiculously cheap. My friend tells me it's under $10 per seat per year for everything. It sounds like a good amount but when you consider that it includes everything- and 24/7 support- it's ridiculous.

Add that to the amount of Windows only software (which I will thankfully say is lessening, and I say that as a very content Windows user), and the familiarity of adults with Windows...

Windows is probably 90% of machines in student classrooms still.

 

[ValSalva]

Our local school used to be Mac but switched to Windows a couple of years ago during the netbook craze. They bought a bunch of Toshiba netbooks. No interest in the iPad because of its expense and limitations.

 

[blunderboy]

Microsoft dumps their licenses on schools with full support contracts. Cheap per seat licensing on Windows client OSes/server/Office. Ridiculously cheap. My friend tells me it's under $10 per seat per year for everything. It sounds like a good amount but when you consider that it includes everything- and 24/7 support- it's ridiculous.

Add that to the amount of Windows only software (which I will thankfully say is lessening, and I say that as a very content Windows user), and the familiarity of adults with Windows...

Well, it's a good business strategy for Microsoft. If they dump Windows licences on to schools and offer support, they'll create more active Windows users who won't know about other OS options because Microsoft has the schools in the bag.

 

[0098386]

Our school used to use macs back in the G3 iMac days. We had 3 main computer labs, cupboards full of iBooks. As I was leaving they switched over to PC.

The reason was the iMacs were ageing and they were donations from the nearby college. The school, as big and well funded as it was, spent the money on replacing their network with PCs and have had them ever since. I imagine that once an infrastructure is developed its very hard and expensive to change it.

Same thing happened at my college too. Macs one moment then PC's as I was leaving. Which was funny considering we had one technician for the whole college to deal with Macs, and even though there was less PC computers; they had more technicians.

Both my universities had split PC and Mac labs! We've always had a good mix up here.

 

[Winni]

I mean really, last year I saw most of my teachers comps crashing on spot and then they couldnt do anything. These people need some Macs.

and im not sure whether this should go in this forum im just new, if it doesnt tell me >_>

In the real world, and I mean the world where people actually use computers as tools at work, Windows still is the undisputed dominating platform. Since schools should prepare you for the work life, why should they use something that has only limited relevance for your future career?

Also, if you put a Mac in a class room and let it be used daily by dozens of computer-illiterate people, do you honestly believe that it will last much longer than an average PC? As a matter of fact, it's even easier to corrupt or destroy a Mac OS X installation than it is with Windows 7.

 

[hazza.jockel]

Well, it's a good business strategy for Microsoft. If they dump Windows licences on to schools and offer support, they'll create more active Windows users who won't know about other OS options because Microsoft has the schools in the bag.

Apple should be combating this by providing really cheap computers to schools.
Obviously it can't be done world wide but if they do research and find areas where macs arn't popular and give imacs or similar to schools there. Even if they have an initial loss, mac uptake after those people leave school would most likely increase the mac user base and profit. Apple is really missing out here.

After all what you grow up with is most likely what you will stick with.

Neither my primary school or high school had macs.

 

[muchadoaboutnot]

Apple should be combating this by providing really cheap computers to schools.
Obviously it can't be done world wide but if they do research and find areas where macs arn't popular and give imacs or similar to schools there. Even if they have an initial loss, mac uptake after those people leave school would most likely increase the mac user base and profit. Apple is really missing out here.

Apple's smart. They have small marketshare and make a high profit on that marketshare. Profit levels that make other companies foam at the mouth. I say that as a person whose maximum extent of loyalty is the fact that I bought an iPod Nano 2G a few years back, and I have an iPod Touch I got for free when I switched my phone service to my cable company (and it was cheaper, so the iPod was icing on the cake).

Even though people use PCs throughout elementary school to high school they STILL switch to Macs.

I don't think Apple is that interested in subsidizing machines to a high degree as they seem to be doing fine without it.

I had a lot of Macs in my districts though- they were used from K-5, a limited extent in 6th grade. They then disappeared from the junior high school, but were present in the high school for media production.

Back at college, all of the public computers are PCs, but a lot of students own Macs themselves.

 

[PerfSeeker]

Even though people use PCs throughout elementary school to high school they STILL switch to Macs.

Evidence? Macs are at 10% marketshare and probably less then that when you consider installed base. With Windows increasing in quality, I see that stemming the OS/X tide.

Our local school used to be Mac but switched to Windows a couple of years ago during the netbook craze. They bought a bunch of Toshiba netbooks. No interest in the iPad because of its expense and limitations.

iPads would be too much fun and take time away from learning.

 

[muchadoaboutnot]

Evidence? Macs are at 10% marketshare and probably less then that when you consider installed base. With Windows increasing in quality, I see that stemming the OS/X tide.

Apple is a publicly held corporation, they disclose sales to investors. Look at a chart through Q4 2009. Or the latest report, which indicated that they hit a quarterly record for Macs sold and a 33% increase year-on-year.

I'm not a Mac person (just iPods ), but I personally have seen several people I know switch, and Apples' sales numbers are qualitative data that backs up my assertion.

EDIT: Oh, and the majority of people who graduated in my high school macs proceeded to get MBPs. When I say a majority did, I mean more than half, and I think it would be safer to say 75%+. There's a reason why this picture exists