Why I am now a proud owner of a Surface Pro

[spinedoc77]

While that is possible, I don't think it's a good user experience, and from what I've been told the Surface is not that good at it. It's possible that in the future Apple could do a touchscreen Mac, an maybe there's a chance they would get it right, but I doubt they will do it, however I could be wrong and only time will tell. Don't forget it was Apple (Steve Jobs in fact) that believed in "people don't know what they want" and I think to a certain extent it's true, people only know what they think they want! We will see in time

The touchscreen experience on the surface is excellent. This is my personal opinion and if you've tried it and don't like it then I'm not saying neither of us is right or wrong. I just find it interesting to hear people complain that it's so bad, but they've never even tried it, or tried an older unfinished version. A touchscreen laptop BLOWS away a non touchscreen one IMO and for my uses, I would feel heavily hamstrung going back to a non touchscreen device. Microsoft has done an excellent job in having an OS which works very well in both mouse/keyboard and touch paradigms, and they keep refining it vigorously.

I fully believe Apple wants to preserve dual sales of macbooks and ipads, and that plays a large part in their strategy of no touchscreens. The need for an OS such as iOS is just not needed anymore, those restrictions like battery life, size, weight, thinness, touchability, etc. are just not issues anymore in 2016/17. I'm curious to see what happens to Apple's numbers in the coming years. It's not just a few stragglers on a forum saying that Apple has become complacent and iterative, and is eschewing their core base which kept them afloat for so long. It's now becoming mainstream to comment on Apple's complacency by analysts and the media in general. Personally I think Apple will bounce back, the iPhone 8 will buoy them for another 2-3 years and I have high confidence they will wake up and produce some earth shattering stuff like they used to, they just cannot afford not to.

Apple does have it's advantages, FYI I use an iPhone 7s+ and an Apple watch. I do find much of it primitive, but at the same time I highly value my privacy and feel that Apple guards my privacy MUCH more than Google or Microsoft. I will freely admit that if Apple released an ipad with OSx installed I'm 99% sure I'd throw my surface away and go back to Apple.
[doublepost=1480908075][/doublepost]

I'm not sure why there's an argument about whether the Surface Pro is "desktop class" or not. That sounds like a marketing term more than anything meaningful. I can tell you that I'm typing this message while my Surface Pro 3 is hooked up to a 4k monitor and I've had no trouble with multitasking. I can tell you that prior to using this for work, I was using the same Surface Pro 3 on the sofa to read "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo". I was also using my pen on my Surface to annotate a PDF file. The Surface Pro series wouldn't be my first choice if I was doing heavy editing of videos and the like, but for the majority of professionals it should be more than sufficient.

I've been a Mac user since OS X and I could tell Apple had the capacity for success from that point on. I don't see that capacity anymore. I say this while Apple is making many times more profits than it ever was 10-15 years ago. In order to continue to succeed, you need to try new things and ensure your company remains relevant. Apple isn't doing that, and it shows. While Apple has the capacity to change this, I don't think this particular CEO is able to manage towards long term planning and visionary projects. The car project fell apart pretty quickly, as an example.

If some folks want to be Apple fan boys, that's fine. My suggestion would be to start writing to Apple and explaining why you stopped buying their products for the time being. If you keep your eyes closed, what remained of Apple's innovation will be gone, and a boring company will be what's left.

It's just semantics, that's all. "Desktop class" doesn't really mean anything, it was just misinterpreted to mean "desktop PC parts". Just that desktop PC parts moniker doesn't really make sense either. The link put out there involved Intel "desktop processors", yet you can get a laptop with a desktop processor in it, a full desktop processor. Heck you can connect a full PCI-E video card to a laptop. Conversely if I connect a piece of "mobile" hardware to my "desktop" is it still a desktop?

But it's a moot point because that's not how I meant "desktop class" anyway, and I'm the one called out as wrong. For me desktop class means that it runs full OS programs. Maybe not the best terminology as laptops have been around running full OS programs for a long time, but to me it differentiates something like the SP4 from an ipad or android tablet.

Everything is merging anyway, and if someone doesn't think so then they just have their head stuck in the sand. Anyone who doubts cell phones will become full desktop devices eventually just doesn't have a grip on reality. I don't know if it will be next year, or in 5 years, or 10, or 20, but it will happen.
[doublepost=1480908689][/doublepost]

As an owner of surface, many MacBooks and iPad, I can say that the apple hardware is way superior. The Apple user interface is also hands down better.

I will keep on saying that the main limitations are software related.

I will also say that for as long as we need a physical keyboard as the input method the laptop will remain the best device for serious productivity. The reason is that the tablet has a flexible keyboard and it will never be as a robust option as the laptop keyboard. Of course the keyboard is so much a 20th century device, we need a working dictation solution for this century.

By the way I tried dictating this comment... I gave up, totally useless. So many mistakes that they totally disrupt the stream of thoughts. Instead of apple trying to build cars or who knows what else, they should show some more respect for the needs of the current users.

I love my mac and iPads, but that does NOT mean that I will create illusions that they are perfect and I will stop asking for improvements

It's interesting to see different viewpoints. I'm not disagreeing with you at all as we really can't disagree on opinions. I find the hardware to be about equal, at least between Apple and Microsoft. I'll put my SP4 against any MacBook or ipad for build quality ANY day of the week. I do think Apple has the advantage of having more battery life when comparing similar hardware, but they also give up a lot of functionality. In terms of software I find Apple to have a far inferior UI, in particular with iOS. To me it's just dumbed down, a necessary evil once upon a time, but no excuse for it anymore. In regards to OSx I find it less inferior to windows than OSx, and most of my complaints are probably just muscle memory and being used to an OS. I used OSx for a couple of years, and could never get used to things like the horrible Dockbar, how the heck do you guys deal with that? You won't pry windows taskbar out of my dead hands.

I also find the SP4 keyboard just as good as the one on the Mac Air laptop, which is really what it's meant to compete against. I don't disagree though that if typing is that important to you then you should consider a full MacBook. The SP4 keyboard doesn't flex at all, the issues are more that it's smaller than a traditional laptop, and the keys have less travel and less meat than a traditional keyboard. But I agree with you fully if you need something approximating a full keyboard get the MacBook, but not the MacBook air which is the same thing. There are also plenty of windows laptops out there with nice keyboards. Heck, I'd say the perfect solution would be to get a convertible laptop, one that has a touchscreen and the keyboard can swivel behind it and be used as a tablet, AND has a full keyboard. I just bought a really nice 15" Lenovo convertible for my sister in law and was quite impressed at the functionality.

Everything I've stated is purely opinion and only applicable to myself. Everyone has their needs and uses and that's what shapes our preferences.

 

[0lf]

They literally are the reason everyone now things touch should be standard in everything but yet they are the only ones who wont go there. It makes no sense to me other then cannibalizing iPad sells. It boils down to they want you to spend a crap ton of money on a phone, a laptop, an iPad, and maybe a desktop iMac at the same time instead of merging it for their target audience's convenience.

Developing a good touch UI takes times. Microsoft started more than 5 years ago and they have not finish yet as major part of the OS is still touch unfriendly. See the amount of complain W8 bring. Now imagine if Apple introduce a touch interface for macOS : it will be end of the world for professional Apple whiner.
I already express my opinion on Apple strategy regarding touch, and I don't think it is about the fear of cannibalizing themselves. It is just than Microsoft and Apple both started where they were strong, resulting in a up to bottom approach from Microsoft and a bottom to up approach from Apple. At each generation Apple add capabilities to iPad and start selling it as a replacement to their PC for people who don't need a pc anymore.

I agree, but that doesn't mean it can't be used for desktop usage just like I'm using mine.

In short, the Surface is "desktop class" only for people who don't need desktop performance.

The touchscreen experience on the surface is excellent. This is my personal opinion and if you've tried it and don't like it then I'm not saying neither of us is right or wrong. I just find it interesting to hear people complain that it's so bad, but they've never even tried it, or tried an older unfinished version.

The SP2 is not unfinished. But may be you can precise what are the improvements made on following Surfaces about touchscreen experience ?
BTW, I will not call W10 touch experience "so bad". I just said it is not up to iPad standard.

 

[Dave245]

I think his statement on that was more for things that were not mainstream already. iPod, iPhone, iPad and he was right. However, touch screen is so entrenched into peoples minds now that the argument for that no longer is appropriate. I hear on forums about this topic about how people use their iPhone and iPad so much when they sit down at there laptop they unintentionally try to touch the screen because Apple it self has put touch first into everyone's mind. I can't see how they would ever think a touch screen Mac or a tablet with OS X (sorry macOS) wouldn't be what people want. They literally are the reason everyone now things touch should be standard in everything but yet they are the only ones who wont go there. It makes no sense to me other then cannibalizing iPad sells. It boils down to they want you to spend a crap ton of money on a phone, a laptop, an iPad, and maybe a desktop iMac at the same time instead of merging it for their target audience's convenience.

I don't think that's true, Apple are not afraid of cannibalising their own sales, if it's for another of their own products. Apple have said on a couple of occasions why they won't do a touch screen Mac, it's because the user experience isn't good, or at least as good as they may want it to be. Apple don't do what people want them to do, if you look at previous years, they tend to do their own thing an more often than not it works out and other companies (ironically) tend to follow.
[doublepost=1480943809][/doublepost]

The touchscreen experience on the surface is excellent. This is my personal opinion and if you've tried it and don't like it then I'm not saying neither of us is right or wrong. I just find it interesting to hear people complain that it's so bad, but they've never even tried it, or tried an older unfinished version. A touchscreen laptop BLOWS away a non touchscreen one IMO and for my uses, I would feel heavily hamstrung going back to a non touchscreen device. Microsoft has done an excellent job in having an OS which works very well in both mouse/keyboard and touch paradigms, and they keep refining it vigorously.

I fully believe Apple wants to preserve dual sales of macbooks and ipads, and that plays a large part in their strategy of no touchscreens. The need for an OS such as iOS is just not needed anymore, those restrictions like battery life, size, weight, thinness, touchability, etc. are just not issues anymore in 2016/17. I'm curious to see what happens to Apple's numbers in the coming years. It's not just a few stragglers on a forum saying that Apple has become complacent and iterative, and is eschewing their core base which kept them afloat for so long. It's now becoming mainstream to comment on Apple's complacency by analysts and the media in general. Personally I think Apple will bounce back, the iPhone 8 will buoy them for another 2-3 years and I have high confidence they will wake up and produce some earth shattering stuff like they used to, they just cannot afford not to.

Apple does have it's advantages, FYI I use an iPhone 7s+ and an Apple watch. I do find much of it primitive, but at the same time I highly value my privacy and feel that Apple guards my privacy MUCH more than Google or Microsoft. I will freely admit that if Apple released an ipad with OSx installed I'm 99% sure I'd throw my surface away and go back to Apple.

From what i've heard and seen, i don't think the Surface touchscreen is on par with with iPad. like i said i haven't used a Surface myself personally, but friends and people i know use them, mainly because they are forced to for work, i have seen them in action i've just not had any hands on with one. Plus i'm not a fan of Windows so it's another reason why i wouldn't get one, before i had my first Mac (2011 MacBook Pro) i used Windows and i hated it, every since using a Mac i have loved OSX system. I occasionally have to use Windows at work, and compared to the Mac it's utter garbage, obviously this is my opinion, Window users will probably disagree.

I don't think Apple have become complacent, i think that technology is really good at the moment and the next big thing isn't as easy to work out as it was previously, we now have great iPhone's, Mac's and iPad's. I just think people are too impatient and a lot are like children stamping their feet and wanting the next big thing now.

 

[Osty]

I've been looking more and more at Chromebooks.

Been there already. It's not a bad route if you do most of your computing in a browser or (assuming the cross-over works) Android apps. You can buy 3 or 4 chromebooks for the cost of a Macbook Air.
[doublepost=1480983529][/doublepost]

Core M is the future of Mac Mini, I'm calling it now.

You're assuming the Mac mini has a future

 

[Michael Goff]

Been there already. It's not a bad route if you do most of your computing in a browser or (assuming the cross-over works) Android apps. You can buy 3 or 4 chromebooks for the cost of a Macbook Air.
[doublepost=1480983529][/doublepost]

You're assuming the Mac mini has a future

Okay, you're right. If it does, though, it is Core M.

 

[tbayrgs]

Okay, you're right. If it does, though, it is Core M.

I don't see why Apple would go this route. Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the biggest benefits of Core M their power sipping nature and lower heat output? In a small, thin portable these are very valuable but in a desktop that doesn't move, there is no benefit and a signficant processing power handicap.

Well, then again, Apple doesn't seem to necessary follow typical logic as of late so you may absolutely be correct on this.