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Why I don't recommend Macs

It's too hard not bringing up this point...

How doesn't an IT guy who is trained in computer technology unable to figure out something so simple as how to find "Help", how to drag a folder in the trash to delete it, how to switch the Finder to column view, or that command+x/c/v is exactly the same as ctrl+x/c/v? I have a 13 year old sister who could figure this stuff out on my PowerBook when I helped her with a school project and she never used a Mac before.

I understand that OS X is different than Windows, but seriously, you should take some time to actually learn how to use the OS before listing how it fails to be like Windows when every point brought up is either a non issue, the same as Windows, or arguably better than Windows. Either that, or just ask others for help on how to use OS X. When I got my new PowerBook running OS 10.2.7, it was the first time I ever really touched OS X and I figured out how to use it pretty thoroughly within that same weekend. As with most of the posts, all the information you needed to figure out all of your difficulties have now been addressed and answered. Perhaps now you are able to recommend a Mac now that you have some understanding of how and why certain things are different than with Windows.
 
lol.. i can't believe i'm even replying to this thread.

would you also not recommend someone to use a windows PC because they are different to macs?
 
spookz said:
that was an eye opener for me in my move to mac (not quite complete tho). loved it! i always liked the little self contained windows apps. single exe's that generate nothing more than a reg /ini file. now.... nothing but bloat

ps; you can move the app to another dir and still retain prefs unlike win progs.
Click to expand...

I am about to do the switch from PC and this is actually one of my favourite aspects of Mac. On the PC when you install something it puts alot of DLL files in the Windows Systems directories. I have no idea who the hell came up with this hare brain idea, because not all of the uninstall programs clean this up properly and you can get alot of rubbish in the registry as well.

I think ChrisH3677 has been very very lucky if any of those uninstall programs have actually done the whole job for him. I find that most do between 50-100% of the job, even some of the better ones leave an empty directory behind.
 
carletonmusic said:
"So I've never recommended a Mac"

"I do tell all my peers they should be using Macs"

hmmm........
Click to expand...

I've never recommended a Mac to a Joe Average - as much as I really want to.

But to my IT peers, I'm always telling them why Mac is better. I am the IT Manager where I work with 100 or so users (and was their IT support before that), and except for two critical apps (Records Management and our Finance, Property and Rating system), I could have and would have change us all to Macs.

I haven't read all the posts here yet, but I am hoping that someone will have said something like "Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but the switchers I've recommended Macs to have surprised me and had no probs. So don't let it worry ya!!"
 
ChrisH3677 said:
...
...
Click to expand...

He he, one more shot at responding to your post.
-context sensitive help. Mac does not have a direct comparison to this. However, it doesn't mean you can't get the information you need without going to help. In many applications, almost all buttons and such have help tags which show up as you hover over the element. In addition, if you press the command(apple) key while hovering over that element, you can bring up additional contextual info in the tag if provided. As well certain windows will have a question mark button(notably in Sys prefs) which will open a help topic for you concerning how to use that window. As I see it, windows gives you too much (often useless) information. This can be more a design flaw than a help at times. I feel apple gives you enough contextual help (and not too much) and leaves the rest up to an interface that suggests a purpose. Mac apps generally have a cleaner design than windows apps so you don't need to be told what everything does.
-application menu resolved
-application install/location why should a user know where applications are installed? and then how will he find them?
Because that's where he'll access them from. Because he knows where he's accessing them from. You don't have a start menu. You have an applications folder. OS X has many shortcuts built in to access your apps folder. In Jaguar, there was a button in the toolbar that would take you to your apps. In panther, check your sidebar. You also can go to the go menu in finder or use the key combination shortcut listed in that menu. Most important apps are already in the dock. And after all this, the user can create his own shortcuts by adding the apps folder to the dock as already mentioned or dragging just the most necessary apps to the dock. Or adding an apps button to the toolbar of finder windows. Or downloading a launcher app off the internet. Your apps are at your fingertips. The drawbacks of the start menu in windows is that it can contain too much info if you have a lot of apps, especially since for every app, you also see an uninstaller. There simply isn't any good(simple) way to view apps in windows.
-programs menu covered above
-my computer nav. most windows users prefer explorer. Mac isn't windows. When you use a mac, then you use the methods mac allows. It won't take long to get used to a different method and it does work just as well (if not better) then explorer. If mac and windows are the same, then why switch?
-no apply, cancel buttons in pref windows. for the most part, they're unnecessary. Changes take place instantly. Only networking prefs does not, and it has an apply button.
-different keyboard shortcuts again, if they're the same, then why switch. You're using a mac, not windows

not flaming or anything, just pointing out why these aren't problems with mac and why they shouldn't be portrayed as such.
 
ChrisH3677 said:
Yes! it must be almost terrifying!!
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It's not really that bad. It's like going from a well-appointed, organized, logical room into a messy, sloppy one. You'll still be able to find everything, it'll just take a little longer.
 
crackpip said:
In general, context sensitive items are considered poor UI design, since the user must figure out what the context was to get back to a previous option or menu item. Sometimes it can be rather irritating trying to find out why a certain menu item is greyed out or is missing.

Also, welcome to the mac world. It'll take some time to get used to things, but I think you'll find it very rewarding.
Click to expand...

Yeah - whenever I've done programming, my goal was to make it so user intuitive that any sort of help system wouldn't be necessary.

The thing that set this thread off was someone on another site asking how to do variable volume on a GB track. It's as easy as clicking a single arrow to reveal the track volume control. Unfortunately for that user it wasn't intuitive and maybe if there was context sensitive help, they may have figured it out themself.

I am certainly too Windows conditioned - I remember the first time using iDVD getting really frustrated coz I couldn't work out how to do something. Problem was, I was looking for the hard way! It turned out all I needed to do was drag and drop!

Hey, and thanks dude, it's guys like you who restore my faith in these forums. Altho I might have said something that appeared stupid to a lot of people, the reactions I got are what scare people off these forums because they think their question might be stupid.
 
i personally dont' agree with many of your gripes because:
a) they're personal opinion
b) IMHO, if you truly know how to use a computer (and you do) you know what a funcionality does, and can therefore easily apply the methods to achieve said functionality. I can thrive in both "worlds" and don't really complain about either. basically, you have to be flexible.

most people here arent' trying to flame, they are just pointing out that most of the things you complained about are so minor, it wouldnt' make any difference to 99% of people.

we just agree to disagree
 
ChrisH3677 said:
Apple and MS do nick ideas from each other (MS more so). Apple though tends to take something and make it better - eg the command-tab between applications. MS has had that for years but never given it any extra functionality, such as Apple have done - esp in Panther. (Correct me if I''m wrong - OS9 didn't have it did it?)
Click to expand...

OS9 did have the ability to switch through apps by using command-tab, but it didn't come up on the screen like with windows and panther. i haven't used os9 in a while, but i think the upper right hand side of the applications bar would indicate which applications you were switching to.
 
I was pretty fluent in win 98 when I switched to Jag. Now I use panther exclusively. My brother put XP on his pc, and I try to use it, but the learning curve is pretty steep. Most stuff is in a new place, and I can't keep it all straight. The options go on ad naseum, often without purpose. And the wizards...... the only problem the wizard ever solved for me was demonstrating the wizards inability to solve any problems. It's like some never ending survey with no tangible point that offers "I don't know" as an option.

while XP is supposed to help novices, all it suceeds in doing is allowing novices to navigate an endless parade of complicated questions, about which they know nothing, all the while punching the "I am a tech idiot" button repeatedly.

If you're a fan of surveys, bubble-sheets, polls, lease forms, loan applications, or pushing buttons for fun, then XP is for you. Otherwise, use OSX, linux, or the local libraries strangled version of windoesn't.

2 cents.
 
I stand by all the points i highlighted. They are the things that have made the switch harder for me. Yes they are all personal opinion and experience. But when I'm recommending Macs or not, that's all I have to go on. Until now. :D

It is good to hear other switchers disagreeing with me as that does give me more confidence to put up Macs as an option for people. But even if I do, I will still say "These are the best computers, but there are some things you may find takes a bit longer to get used to - which I did, altho others tell me they didn't."

I apologize for tone of the original post - I should have edited it a bit more.
I should have titled it "Has any other switchers struggled with..." It's been a tough weekend. I shouldn't have been posting at all. But to those who responded constructively - thanks, it helped.

PS Despite using and supporting Windows for 8 years, I do find it a chore to use when I have to, and sometimes just stare at it trying to remember how to do things! :D I do have VPC for those corporate apps mentioned in another post but I am using it less and less. I also like watching my fellow IT managers gag on their coffee when I tell them I can do everything on my Mac I need to do to manage the Windows network.
They just don't get it. They don't understand how the support calls would go from "My computers doing stupid things" to "How do i..."
 
I'd say that the learning curve was steeper than you'd expect if you were switching. But it all depends on what you want to get out of it and how much of a Windows mindset you had to start. Everybody I know who switched seemed to do okay, but then I'm not saying that I know everybody who switched, so I expect some people found the transition a litle awkward.
 
I don't know bout you, but I believe that those from the other side will do this too -- jump to conclusions prematurely. Take a look at MacZealots article from last month:

http://maczealots.com/articles/dark-side/

They are guilty of making overtly early, ignorant assumptions in the same way that XP users can and will make assumptions of OSX. (e.g. MacZealots resorting to the "Fisher Price" stereotype and complaining about the GUI when they fully know that themes have been available since the release of XP).

This is main reason I try not to comment on OSX at all until, perhaps, I can use it for at least several more months. Even then, my experience with it will be limited, as I still fully rely on my self-built AMD box in my dorm. The experience as a whole is different if I was completely relying on a G5 for months (and talk about a perspective change too). I obviously do not have the money for this kind of investment, so until then, i only have my lab experiences to base off of, and with that in mind, i would not dare to write an article like MacZealots did.

Even after playing with the G5's at my university for nearly a month, I don't think I can really, truthfully, and knowledgeably make a legitimate argument for/against the OS. I can certainly use my opinions as a basis for "initial XP to OSX" experience per-say, but not as an end-all, encompassing argument.

*I believe osnews.com also did this a while ago...and with a horrible outcry from the Mac community if you took a look at the comments :p

*by the way, if you saw my first post a month ago bout trying a G5, I was trying to be as open-minded as i could be...
 
ChrisH3677 said:
The thing that set this thread off was someone on another site asking how to do variable volume on a GB track. It's as easy as clicking a single arrow to reveal the track volume control. Unfortunately for that user it wasn't intuitive and maybe if there was context sensitive help, they may have figured it out themself.
Click to expand...
Yea, that is one very BAD thing that was inherited from OS9, that stupid arrow!! An arrow means "point to something", not a "menu is hidden underneath." I actually prefer the "plus" and "minus" signs on windows (scary I know!), but I wish apple would change the stupid arrows thing. AFAIK NeXTSTEP didn't have them did they?

Oh well. The best we can do is make our suggestions to apple....
 
Kyle? said:
It's not really that bad. It's like going from a well-appointed, organized, logical room into a messy, sloppy one. You'll still be able to find everything, it'll just take a little longer.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was going to say.
 
well i am on the dark side at the moment i can't say if some operating system is better than an other... for university i have to use linux (every programmed programm _has_ to run on red hat 9.0) and when i saw how _messy_ that is ... i decided not using linux as my desktop for another few years..but i want to get rid of those windows for daily business because it just annoyes me with it security issues

my conclusion:
-mac os x: no experience
-windows: messed up, sometimes cunfusing but acceptable GUI design, installing programms easy, uninstalling sometimes real pain...
-linux: sometimes really clean but most of the time configuration extreme confusing and messed up _a lot_, different GUI design from programm to programm, installing programms: sometimes works flawless, sometimes it takes brute force ( '-f' anyone ?) and endless hours if somethings doesn't work like in the 'readme': you're screwed (missing libaries etc.), uninstalling: same here, ,very good OS for developing,server etc.
 
"Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but the switchers I've recommended Macs to have surprised me and had no probs. So don't let it worry ya!!" ;)

I was raised on PC back with PCIndex and DOS prompt. I went strait from that to 95. Soon after that I watched a graphic artist friend of mine on a mac (OS 9) and I was blown away at the simplicity and ease of use of the OS that became an avid user. OS X has been like a party every time I use it (including the random drunk that shows up and gets things a little screwy). Now when I sit in front of a M$ machine I am literally putting at my hair looking for relief. Yes, there are differences between the OS's, but I welcome those because they have made me so much more productive.

I have recommended macs to several people, many of which have made the change. And those first few weeks, ya, I get phone calls with 'how do I do this?' and 'where do I need to go to do this?'. After a little bit of time, they get the hang of it (forgetting the 'bad mindsets' of how a computer should act that was ingrained my their former windoz companions). I have never gotten a 'man, this is the worst thing I have ever done.' or 'what did you get me into!'

so.... "Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but the switchers I've recommended Macs to have surprised me and had no probs. So don't let it worry ya!!"
 
Can't switch the company to mac? but you can!

My father is an IT directory for a small (350 person) company, he is slowly transitioning macs into some of his departments. If you only have 2 applications that don't run natively in Mac OS X, you have it far better than he does. Windows NT/2000/2003 Server with the built in Terminal Server solves his problem of running windows apps without the overhead of running VPC. Microsoft released Remote Desktop Connection for Mac OS X, so you can run PC Apps off your server (which he was doing with his PC's before hand, easier to update the 1 install, more secure, etc). This may be something you want to think about as my father did (mainly was sick of removing all the viruses time and time again).
 
Sorry about your tough weekend - hope the next one is better

I can see where you're coming from. I've switched recently mainly after playing on a friend's Tibook and having privacy concerns over MS wanting to know if I change anything major with my system. I was running Win98 SE but the general housekeeping it took to keep it running was a pain. To be fair, I never had a virus or worm but I was pretty good at keeping virus software/firewall stuff up to date. And I could make it do what I wanted it to do without pulling my hair out tho' I wasn't doing hugely complicated things.

The majority of things in OSX I had no problems with. Yes, I'm still paranoid about haivng to Quit things rather that just close things since on the PC that would've slowed things down too much. It's odd that some apps quit when you shut the window (iPhoto) and some don't (iTunes).

Some things are intuitive - once you know what you're looking for. Took me ages to figure out how to add a new account in Mail, then I found the plus sign in another app and suddenly...doh, it became obvious. Likewise drag and drop, I wanted to save a picture on a website, tried control-clicking, nada. Ah yes, just pick it up and drop in on the desktop (pity that the springloaded folders won't work and let me drop it to its final position tho).

I recommended my sister to get a Mac. She didn't use Windows much. She's having a great time experimenting and I've only had calls saying 'guess what I just managed to do!' as opposed to my mother running an old PC who calls with problems.

I believe that if you're new to computers or weren't comfortable using Windows, then you'll switch to a Mac and everything will seem intuitive. If you were 'good' at Windows, then you might find it slightly trickier to think 'intuitively' initially. Once you learn the basics tho, then apps are a lot more standardised on Mac and life becomes easier.
 
ChrisH3677 said:
Apple and MS do nick ideas from each other (MS more so). Apple though tends to take something and make it better - eg the command-tab between applications. MS has had that for years but never given it any extra functionality, such as Apple have done - esp in Panther. (Correct me if I''m wrong - OS9 didn't have it did it?)
Click to expand...

OS 9 also features cmd + tab for browsing apps. Panther edition is of course taken a step further.

And you are right about the two being inspired by each other :)

An avid mac-user I always recommend Mac's to my friends. Some even have converted - and are quite happy about it. Most of my friends that know of computers are rather scekptical though - I suspect because now they do have an intimate knowledge of the technology, with a mac they suddenly don't. Yes, you would be more productive when familiar with it. Yes, it is a great OS for newbees. And yes, it is a learning curve (or maybe an unlearning curve :) for Windows-people. A lot of things are beeing done very different (actually also applies for OS9 -> OSX users).

There are tons of tricks (like keeping the app folder in the dock - or even just a "favourite app" folder. btw ctrl click to make the list appear instantly) to enhance the use of OSX.3. And when you learn to master the beast you will feel so much in control of your computer as you never did before!

I can recommend David Pogues excellent "Missing Manual - OS X Panter ed" (O'Reilly) to everyone - beginner to pro, switcher to OS9 upgrader. It covers a lot of neat stuff on how the best OS in the world works.

Good luck on you quest!
 
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