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Funkatation said:
Windows NT/2000/2003 Server with the built in Terminal Server solves his problem of running windows apps without the overhead of running VPC. Microsoft released Remote Desktop Connection for Mac OS X, so you can run PC Apps off your server (which he was doing with his PC's before hand, easier to update the 1 install, more secure, etc). This may be something you want to think about as my father did (mainly was sick of removing all the viruses time and time again).

bwa hahahahaha! This is something I've been scheming for the last few months. I've told my network admin guy he has to get TS running and the corporate systems running on it. I've told him of my ulterior motive (coz he sits beside me). My first hope is once i get it fully working on my Powerbook, is to replace the Art Gallery PCs; then Reception; then we'll gauge the reaction and the level of success and take it from there.

it's good to hear someone else is successfully doing it. thanks
 
ChrisH3677

i too had problems when swtichng. i made the switch to an imac running os9 about four or five years ago now. i hated it to begin with. i literally wanted to throw the imac out of the window for the first month, but then a strange thing happend. i tried going back to a windows machine and hated that more! lol. i quickly switched to osx when it came out and then wanted to go back to os9, and then decided i coudlnt use os9 after using osx.

The point of this little confusing story is that my problem was more to do with making the mistake of thinking the new os should have the same things commands and feel as the old os. once i got used to my mac my opinion changed.

four to five years on and i loath using my windows machine in work and cant waite to get home and use my mac. The only annoying thing i find now is that i cant use my webcam with windows users who dont use yahoo messenger. once third party app developers such as msn messenger, aim and icq sort their act out, i'll be a happy bunnny.

jay
 
ChrisH3677 said:
edit: I'm not gunna change what I've written, coz that would make all the respondents look silly. So, for anyone who hasn't read this yet I'll just say:
I apologize for tone of this post - I should have edited it a bit more. It's been a tough weekend. I shouldn't have been posting at all. But to those who responded constructively - thanks, it helped.
I should have titled it "Have any other switchers struggled with..." and left out everything about not recommending Macs.



I've been working in the IT industry in the DOS/Windows world for many years. Last August after wanting a Mac for nearly 20 years, I finally switched.

One of the things I was really looking forward to was the legendary ease of use.

hahahahahahahaha. Boy are Apple having a lend of themselves!!

Yeah - maybe it's user-friendly for a computer newbie, but for a switcher, I found it quite a steep learning curve, and still struggle with some things.

I was stunned to find OSX had no context sensitive help. In most Windows programs, you would be able to right-click on most any screen element and get help on that item.

For some reason, Apple must arrogantly assume their software is too good for that. Sorry Apple. it aint. In OSX it's trial and error i.e. "I wonder what happens if I click this thingy here...."

Things I've struggled with....
- No context sensitive help
- having the application menu separate from the application window (ie anchored the top of the screen)
- the messy install/uninstall procedure. Why should a user need to know where programs are installed? And then how to find them???
- no programs menu (Apple assume that all the programs you'll ever want to use, you'll keep in the dock. pfft!!!)
- the "My Computer" type file navigation. Most Windows users prefer Explorer
- No Apply and Cancel buttons in preference screens!!!!!!!!!!!! That one really amazes me.
- different keyboard shortcuts (esp the copy, cut, paste, undo keys)

I run an IT department and am often asked by users to recommend a computer for them at home. I assess their requirements hoping there is something they want to do that the Mac excels in. But there isn't. They just wanna surf the net, do some word processing and take work home occasionally. So I've never recommended a Mac - even tho they can do all those things on a Mac - because I don't want them having to struggle with the same learning curve I did. I don't want to become their home help desk.

I love OSX (for it's looks and stability), but as I say, I can't recommend it to Joe Averages coz of things like the above list. (I do tell all my peers they should be using Macs - but they off course just laugh and re-adjust their blinkers)

The whole software compatibility issue runs a distant second as a reason not to switch.

I know OSX is evolving so I hope before long these things will change.

I'm just wondering the reason for this lengthy diatribe. You didn't ask a single non-rhetorical question in your original post; almost as if you weren't needing a response. Yet you crafted the post subject so that you KNEW people would click; and the content of your post was designed to be flamebait.

Let me dissect your post a little further. Your first sentence:
"I've been working in the IT industry in the DOS/Windows world for many years."

and further down the post:

I run an IT department

Sounds like someone's a little insecure and trying to justify their post, even before it's been flamed. You don't have to toot your own horn, man. Most posters judge other posters based on the content of their posts, not how they bill themselves.

I'm tired of reading these self-serving posts that do nothing for anyone. Like I said, you weren't requesting a response. You didn't ask for help solving your problems. You were just bellyaching for the sake of having your voice heard.
 
ChrisH3677 said:
Yes iMan! That's probably the real problem! As I said in another post - even six months on, i keep looking for the hard way to do things!

Well, I am rather pragmatic about platforms :) Sure I prefer Mac, and recommend it, but if people like Windows (or whatever) let them play - important thing is anyway for people to get their stuff done.

I really recommend the book for your "unlearning". Also includes specifics as to what/why/how things are different as you read.
 
Applespider said:
Sorry about your tough weekend - hope the next one is better

...

I believe that if you're new to computers or weren't comfortable using Windows, then you'll switch to a Mac and everything will seem intuitive. If you were 'good' at Windows, then you might find it slightly trickier to think 'intuitively' initially. Once you learn the basics tho, then apps are a lot more standardised on Mac and life becomes easier.

Thanks dude. :) I'm not used to people dying - i got mad at the world and as I said, shouldn't have posted! (I still have these small struggles with OSX tho - but usually i woulda phrased it much better)

I really, really love the Mac coz I just use it. I don't have to maintain it besides the occasional reboot and repair permissions (tho both have been greatly reduced since Panther). But I sure gave out the wrong impression! I do need to trust people I could recommend Macs to that they too will prefer using a Mac.

When you think about it, if these are my biggest problems with Macs... sheesh!! They must be damn good!! lol. I think I'll start using those as a selling feature! It's like clutching at straws to find something bad to say!! :D

Like, if I look back at my list and take the thing I think is the worst (probably I'd say "no context sensitive help") and then say to someone considering a Mac "Oh the worst thing you'll find is there's no context sensitive help" they're gunna look at me stupid and say "That's the worst?!!!!! Hello, McFly!!" :D

The thing I've been absolutely ingrained with over many years of using and supporting Windows is thinking laterally - usually for problem solving, but sometimes even just using it.

I used to have a PC support business and the slogan on my card said: "It's not that people are computer illiterate, it's that computers are people illiterate."

But what you and others have really brought home is I gotta lose that thinking when it comes to Mac - coz they are significantly more people literate. And if those things I raised are really the worst probs I've found with Macs, then slap slap!! I need to wake up!


It's just sooo inground tho!! Thanks for all you guys support. I will try harder to recommend Macs and have faith in the OS to convert the person.

thanks :D

I better stop before I flame myself too much more and get myself banned!! :D
 
plasticparadox said:
You were just bellyaching for the sake of having your voice heard.

that's prob true Plastic, but read my last post. I'm sorry i couldn't post it before you did. We musta been typing away at the same time. :D

But at the end of the day, although I started off on the wrong foot and screwed up the initial approach, i got the outcome I wanted. i.e. reassurance to recommend Macs.
 
weird thread. I actually learned some stuff though. Never knew about the Applications folder in the dock trick....neato.
 
These critcisms of OSX are valid, though I don't think they can be called flaws; rather just differences from Windows that might confuse someone accustomed to the Microsoft approach.

I believe in OS9, when a developer adds a contextual menu, the Help item used to be always added by default. However, most developers never 'hooked up' this menu item (adding help can be a surprisingly time-consuming part of software development), meaning help was a disabled menu item in almost every pop-menu in the OS and applications.

Apple do have a "1 page manual" approach to software development, if it needs a bigger manual, they've made the product too complex. While it works well in most cases, sometimes Apple can take it too far.

As for installers, again it's a partly matter of choice and custom. But also many Windows apps NEED an installer because they need to make changes to the registry, and install files throughout the Windows and System32 directories. Mac apps tend to be more self-contained and robust (i.e. less affected by being relocated).

Generally, Mac users tend to customise their systems a lot: they put their apps where they want, they put the dock and other windows where they want etc. Installer-free applications help us do that.

The 'menu bar at top of screen' is good for one reason, it's much faster to hit because you can't overshoot it. Faster means convenience means easier. (Conversely, the fact you can only resize windows by a tiny square in the bottom right is a hinderance in OSX, it takes too much finicky mouse twiddling to hit and drag the stretch widget).

Don't get me started on the keyboard shortcuts though! Apple standardised them across the OS and all applications first. This is a bit like hearing someone say about Lord of the Rings: "Wow, they made a book out of the movie??" :D

Oh, and about Garageband, if you think that's too complex, you should try downloading the Reason Demo. Even with a help file, that's pretty tough!!!
 
agreenster said:
weird thread. I actually learned some stuff though. Never knew about the Applications folder in the dock trick....neato.

It would be good if Apple added this as a option in the Dock preferences (i.e. "tick to show the Applications folder in the Dock").


PS And I learned a lot too... (he says embarrassedly)
 
whooleytoo said:
Oh, and about Garageband, if you think that's too complex, you should try downloading the Reason Demo. Even with a help file, that's pretty tough!!!

yeah - i've seen the screenshots of Reason and I ran screaming from the room! :D A lot of those Music apps are terrifying to look at (and use) - which is one of the reasons GB has been so successful - coz even I can use it!! :D
 
ChrisH3677 said:
I've never recommended a Mac to a Joe Average - as much as I really want to.

But to my IT peers, I'm always telling them why Mac is better. I am the IT Manager where I work with 100 or so users (and was their IT support before that), and except for two critical apps (Records Management and our Finance, Property and Rating system), I could have and would have change us all to Macs.

I haven't read all the posts here yet, but I am hoping that someone will have said something like "Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but the switchers I've recommended Macs to have surprised me and had no probs. So don't let it worry ya!!"

Sure, I understand your position. I've had several managers in IT who weren't technically-oriented and had trouble using the keyboard. You shouldn't be ashamed--it's a common occurrence.

I think you're very brave, coming here to explain your difficulties and preconceptions about Mac OS X. Perhaps, if you stop fighting it and start learning, you'll be fine. That won't help the poor help text, but you'll be a bit closer to being self sufficient.
 
The 'unlearning' curve...

ChrisH3677 said:
Yes iMan! That's probably the real problem! As I said in another post - even six months on, i keep looking for the hard way to do things!

This is certainly consistent with my experience and those of the people I've helped switch.

I've used every flavour of windows since 3.0, and was pretty well trained to look for the hardest way of doing something. This made my switch to the mac somewhat less easy than it might otherwise have been.

I remember trying to burn my first CD, and spending a long time looking for the CD-burning-application, trying to guess how to invoke the CD-creation-wizzard, then I finally decided that the program I needed might get launched automagically when I inserted a blank CD...when the empty CD appeared on my desktop, I thought "could it be so easy as dragging the files I want to the CD?" Since then, I've had less trouble...whenever I'm not sure how to do something, I ask myself, "what would be the simplest, most elegant, obvious way of doing this" and that's usually it.

I still get a kick out of the PC users who struggle with the macs around here...I keep having to remind them that they don't have to re-boot the computer every time they're done with it.

Cheers
 
ChrisH3677 said:
It would be good if Apple added this as a option in the Dock preferences (i.e. "tick to show the Applications folder in the Dock").

This seems unnecessary and confusing -- what would happen if you, say, checked the box and then dragged the Applications folder out of the dock. One procedure that works the same for everything usually ends up being easier to use then ten different ones.

That said, it would be nice if Apple put the Applications folder in the dock by default.
 
This reminds me of a website I found a couple years ago about UI design:

One day Pete's friend Gena asks him for some computer help. Now, Gena has a Macintosh iBook, because she loves the translucent boxes. When Pete sits down and tries to use the Macintosh, he quickly gets frustrated. "I hate these things," he says. He is, finally, able to help Gena, but he's grumpy and unhappy. "The Macintosh has such a clunky user interface."

Clunky? What's he talking about? Everybody knows that the Macintosh has an elegant user interface, right? The very paradigm of ease-of-use?

...

On the Macintosh, when you want to move a window, you can grab any edge with the mouse and move it. On Windows, you must grab the title bar. If you try to grab an edge, the window will be reshaped. When Pete was helping Gena, he tried to widen a window by dragging the right edge. Frustratingly, the whole window moved, rather than resizing as he expected.

...

Pete has also learned to use Alt+F4 to close windows. On the Mac, this actually changes the volume. At one point, Pete wanted to click on the Internet Explorer icon on the desktop, which was partially covered by another window.* So he hit Alt+F4 to close the window and immediately double-clicked where the icon would have been. The Alt+F4 raised the volume on the computer and didn't close the window, so his double click actually hit the Help button in the toolbar on the window which he wanted closed anyway, which immediately started bringing up a help window, so now, he's got two windows open which he has to close.

Another small frustration. But, boy, does it add up. At the end of the day, Pete is grumpy and angry. When he tries to control things, they don't respond. The space bar and the Alt+F4 key "don't work" -- for all intents and purposes, it's as if those keys were broken. The window disobeys him when he tries to make it wider, playing a little prank where it just moves over instead of widening. Bad window.

... "I like my computer," Pete says. "I have it all set up so that it works exactly the way I like it. But these Macs are clunky and hard to use. It's an exercise in frustration. If Apple had been working on MacOS all these years instead of messing around with Newtons, their operating system wouldn't be such a mess."

Right, Pete. We know better. His feelings come despite the fact that the Macintosh really is quite easy to use -- for Mac users.
 
What color is the sky where you live?

ChrisH3677 said:
- In Windows, you run an install program and at the end have a link in your programs menu. In OSX some programs will install in the Application folder and others you have to open a compressed file and you have to manually drag and drop its contents to the Applications folder. Then in both case, you navigate to the Apps folder to run it. If you run it often use the "Keep in dock" option. Yes you can also drag the apps folder to the Dock for quicker access. Some Windows installers ask too many questions, but in the main, the Windows approach is much tidier and more user friendly.
Windows is not by any means more tidy than Mac OS X. Even in the panther install, it was much easier than windows. When my XP drive corrupted, I had to spend several days trying to get windows to reinstall and / or try and fix the drive. And I'm no windows newbie- I've been on windows for eight+ years- since windows 95 and 3.1- long enough to have memory leaks, program and file corruption, messy installers, havoc-wreaking installers, and malicious Windows "Updates" Mac OS X organizes like I think. I like to have everything in one spot, and if I don't use a program that often I dont put it on the dock. you can put aliases on the desktop or folders on the dock. By any mean, Mac OS X is tider and easier than even Windows XP.
 
its called iChat 2.1

j_maddison said:
The only annoying thing i find now is that i cant use my webcam with windows users who dont use yahoo messenger. once third party app developers such as msn messenger, aim and icq sort their act out, i'll be a happy bunnny.
jay


Have you ever heard of iChat 2.1? It's "new" from apple and it can webcam with AOL, .Mac, and Rendezvous users. It can do audio with all three, and can text AOL, .Mac, iChat 1, 2, and 2.1.
 
ChrisH3677 said:
I was stunned to find OSX had no context sensitive help. In most Windows programs, you would be able to right-click on most any screen element and get help on that item.

For some reason, Apple must arrogantly assume their software is too good for that. Sorry Apple. it aint. In OSX it's trial and error i.e. "I wonder what happens if I click this thingy here...."


i didnt notice when i went from nine to panther that help balloons aqre no longer available maybe because of the constant "god why howdid i turn theese on again WHY WONT YOU DIE" complaints caused by them
 
Mac to Windows

carletonmusic said:
I didn't know you could drag the Applications folder to the Dock - see, everyone learns from discussion...The learning curve going from Mac --->> Windows must be 10x worse!!

The move from Mac --->> Windows was frickin' brutal. Whilst transitioning from OS9 to OSX I also had to learn Win98 and man I spent most of the time shaking my head and wondering how I could get the damned thing to do what I wanted. But, after moving to Win2k I realized that each OS has its advantages. Frankly, I believe that Windows primary advantage is its shear ubiquity, the shear numbers of it and the shear constant use so that everyone has become inured to it.
I think personally that OSX is a great OS, but it's not perfect, it could be snappier, there are options that are missing, but it's an OS that manages to be useful for new users, UNIX geeks, AV guys, Powerusers all at the same time and that's pretty impressive.
So ChrisH3677, I understand the frustration, I was ready to strap my PC to a trebuchet and hurl that #&$#(! at the horizon or take it out to a field and beat it ala' Office Space, but ultimately I learned how to use the system to its advantages. Take your time, ask questions of other users—here on this forum for example, and really play with the system. Call Apple, trawl around the Support forums, go bother someone at an Apple store (or its equivalent).
 
ChrisH3677 said:
Problem was, I was looking for the hard way! It turned out all I needed to do was drag and drop!

I switched in Aug 2003, got the Ipod+printer+powerbook.

I faced EXACTLY this problem! I've been using Linux exclusively for the past 4 years. Windows and DOS before that. I was usually searching for the really hard way - usually the Windows equivalent. The funniest was the wireless setup.

While registering (when I opened it for the first time), I gave my wireless network name, and WEP password. After booting up, I spent a good 5 to 10 mins trying to find out how to setup and install the airport extreme built-in card :D. Of course, this was because I had used a Mac only once or twice before this, for a few minutes max.

Frustrated, I opened up the Safari. Got the shock of my life when I found I wan online!! Try this on a Win XP machine, and you'll know what I'm talking about.

After that solid mindF**k, I decided I would be more careful henceforth. I read up on the help, and found the help itself to be amazingly useful, and to the point. Remember I'm coming from a recent Linux background ;-).

I've leart a hell of a lot since then, thanks to Macrumors forums and MacOSXHints and the various authors of freeware and shareware programs. Props to ragingmenace.com's Alex Harper (some one get him a job, so he can continue working on SideTrack!!) primarily. Fink helped a LOT. GIMP, Latex, XFig etc. are necessary tools for my trade.

IMHO, Chris's main problem might have been coming from a straigh Win/Dos environment. Since I had a Linux/Solaris/Windows/DOS experience, I was able to quite easily adapt to the (yet another) key convention/binding.

Nowadays, I'm quite impatient when working on a Windows machine. The Terminal is my friend ;-).
 
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