Why is everybody fighting about the MiniPro?

[goMac]

My boss (very high-level scientist in an Ivy League university) loved the cube and bought three or four of them. I upgraded them for him (gpus i think) when such became available. I can't wait to ask him what he thinks about the new MP (he just got back into town)....

The new Mac Pro reminds me a bit of the Cube, and it also doesn't. The Cube was definitely targeted at prosumers, while the new Mac Pro is still definitely targeted at pros. The prosumer market is probably still looking for a four core, single GPU machine, not some 12 core dual GPU thing. So I think the comparisons to the Cube are only skin deep.

A NeXT cube comparison might be more apt.

 

[Photovore]

The new Mac Pro reminds me a bit of the Cube, and it also doesn't. The Cube was definitely targeted at prosumers, while the new Mac Pro is still definitely targeted at pros. The prosumer market is probably still looking for a four core, single GPU machine, not some 12 core dual GPU thing. So I think the comparisons to the Cube are only skin deep.

A NeXT cube comparison might be more apt.

Funny! -- NeXT came to our campus a coupla-three decades ago when I was an undergrad; I went to their demo.

Was very impressed with the drag-and-drop UI building, far advanced from anything else at that time. Was very recently reminded of that demo, when I installed a version of Xcode with IB built-in. (Old NeXT way was still more impressive, though!)

I just know my PI will get a nMP with grant money coming in; it's the way he's built internally. But, with grant money getting tighter lately, he may need a little push from me on this one!!!!!

 

[ssgbryan]

In tech product management, 'near term' classified as 5 years? Chuckle. No.

Anyone who says they are not moving for 5 years far more likely has a relatively high percentage of "stuck in the mud" customers rather than real technology change improvements that could be leveraged.

The 5 year mark is where tech tends start to get fuzzy and hand wavy. Not the end of the "short term". It is far more so the end of the long term plans.

Obviously, I went too fast.

About "stuck in the mud customers" shows you have absolutely no clue as to the marketplace for the products I mentioned.

"We have a new version of our software! You need to chuck your entire workflow to take advantage of it."

Sorry, but that is going to equal "No Sale" for a lot of folks - Hobbyists buy more copies of Poser, Vue, and Z-Brush than small & large studios combined.

Getting customers to upgrade is really, really difficult - If you didn't know this, ask E-on software, the makers of Vue. They created a brand new marketing and upgrade scheme campaign because too many customers have skipped multiple iterations, because the "new features" didn't justify the expense of the new product. I'm one of them - from Vue 5 to Vue 11, the only version that justified a new copy was when Vue finally went to 64-bit on OSX, 2 iterations after the Windows version.

After you are done talking to them, talk to SmithMicro, the current owner of Poser - they have been pulling their hair out trying to get their customers to move from earlier versions.

5 years is 2 iterations of software, at least with the software I am using. Assuming that they are working on it today, which doesn't appear to be the case.

Some of the products that I use have just now completed the move from 32-bit to 64-bit (1 to 2 versions behind their windows version), others still haven't made that transition.

The software I am using is already optimized to use CPUs. Having them change to GPUs means I get to relive the pain of moving from single to multi core processing. Thanks, but once was enough.

As a hobbyist, I can add 1st gen Dell Workstations (4 cores) to my render farm cheaper ($250) than I can add a top-of-the-line GPU.

 

[Photovore]

A GPU ... many streams, performing relatively simple operations on them,...

Most of your post is spot-on, but I would like to disabuse you (as I did myself) regarding what is meant by "relatively simple".

My task is extremely complex; details are proprietary, but I just sort of coded it into OpenCL on faith alone. [N.B.; "just sort of coded" involved climbing not one mountain of learning-curve, but three, over a one-year-plus period.] I was happily pleased that it worked at all!

Recently replaced my 5870 Mac Edition with a used 570 offa ebay. Now, I can gen full-HD frames (1920x1080) at 60fps, which frankly is twice the speed required; your eyes can't process that quickly and I've had to add heavy smoothing.

I dunno how much you can throw at it until it can't handle any more, but it is in fact plenty....

[!!! Given that, in fact, your task parallelizes well. Mine was just plain born for multi-threadedness...]

(must send now because battery dying. may edit later....)

 

[flat five]

Having them change to GPUs means I get to relive the pain of moving from single to multi core processing. Thanks, but once was enough.

what are you talking about? what pain?
or are you just being dramatic?

 

[ssgbryan]

what are you talking about? what pain?
or are you just being dramatic?

The first version of multi-core rendering wouldn't use any core that finished earlier than the slowest one.

Real world, I was seeing the same render times, because 1 core would be stuck on something, but the program didn't use the other cores to help out once they had finished. Because of this, my render times didn't actually improve.

That was fixed in the next version, but it was released 2 years after the first.

 

[flat five]

The first version of multi-core rendering wouldn't use any core that finished earlier than the slowest one.

Real world, I was seeing the same render times, because 1 core would be stuck on something, but the program didn't use the other cores to help out once they had finished. Because of this, my render times didn't actually improve.

That was fixed in the next version, but it was released 2 years after the first.

ugh.. really? that is actually kinda painful ..what application was that? vue?

fwiw, when indigo integrated cuda (and now openCL as well), you simply had to tick the 'GPU acceleration' box.. so i wouldn't say every app is going to be similar experience to the one you had.. for the most part, the workflow will stay the same.. the changes are under the hood.

 

[Photovore]

...), you can take it on location with you easily due to its small size (a HUGE plus! Ever have to travel with large Mac Pros? Not fun)...

I did a show the other night, and there were two things I lugged out to the back of my Explorer: 1) the Mac Pro, and 2) a box containing everything else; monitor, keyboard, air-mouse, extension cord, power strip, smaller box full of cables and adapters, etc....

With the new MP, item 1) would be subsumed into item 2). In other words, it would fit into the box with the other stuff, making it one trip for one person, vs. two as it is now...

 

[Tronic]

Has Apple even said the current MP is being discontinued? Maybe so and I missed it, but if not, isn't there a possibility they'll offer bother for a time much like the MBP and RMBP?

Maybe they'll have some sort of part replacement service where for a fee you can change out graphics/cpu.

Maybe they'll offer a bare bones model that comes in <$2k.

 

[chrono1081]

I did a show the other night, and there were two things I lugged out to the back of my Explorer: 1) the Mac Pro, and 2) a box containing everything else; monitor, keyboard, air-mouse, extension cord, power strip, smaller box full of cables and adapters, etc....

With the new MP, item 1) would be subsumed into item 2). In other words, it would fit into the box with the other stuff, making it one trip for one person, vs. two as it is now...

I want to sneak mine to work with me so I can do all my creative stuff in my downtime, which is pretty much all day. (I have a lot of downtime at my current job because I'm severely under-utilized...).

 

[ssgbryan]

ugh.. really? that is actually kinda painful ..what application was that? vue?

fwiw, when indigo integrated cuda (and now openCL as well), you simply had to tick the 'GPU acceleration' box.. so i wouldn't say every app is going to be similar experience to the one you had.. for the most part, the workflow will stay the same.. the changes are under the hood.

Poser. Most of the underlying code from the 20th century was completely replaced in Poser 8/2010.

One of the major selling points was faster rendering due to multi-core support. They got it right in version 2, but not version 1.

Other joys - Renderer went 64-bit before the main program did, so even though the Firefly render engine could access more than 2Gb per process, I couldn't build a scene that used over 2Gb. And since Vue, at that point in time was still 32-bit on the OSX platform, I couldn't import my Poser scene into it, so I could use that render engine.

I blame a lot of that "foot dragging" where in belongs - with Apple. They were the ones taking their sweet ass time on developing the Cocoa APIs that were actually useable.

Of course, now I can send everything to the Lux render engine via the Reality plug-in, so those problems are solved.

Some people are working under the delusion that when software companies move from CPU rendering to GPU rendering, that they will get it right the first time.

I have NEVER seen a major subsystem replacement get it right out of the box on the first occasion.

 

[flat five]

Poser. Most of the underlying code from the 20th century was completely replaced in Poser 8/2010.

One of the major selling points was faster rendering due to multi-core support. They got it right in version 2, but not version 1.

Other joys - Renderer went 64-bit before the main program did, so even though the Firefly render engine could access more than 2Gb per process, I couldn't build a scene that used over 2Gb. And since Vue, at that point in time was still 32-bit on the OSX platform, I couldn't import my Poser scene into it, so I could use that render engine.

I blame a lot of that "foot dragging" where in belongs - with Apple. They were the ones taking their sweet ass time on developing the Cocoa APIs that were actually useable.

there's a similar situation that's still ongoing with SketchUp.. all the render apps are now 64bit but sketchup is still 32.. it's not too big of a deal until you need to render something big (physically large image.. a few thousand px wide will be ok)

Some people are working under the delusion that when software companies move from CPU rendering to GPU rendering, that they will get it right the first time.

I have NEVER seen a major subsystem replacement get it right out of the box on the first occasion.

yeah, i guess that's up to how the individual software companies run their show.. for me, my main two applications are rhino and indigo.. both of them run open betas.. so new features are worked out via the more adventurous users and by the time the version is officially released, most everything has been squashed..

 

[tuxon86]

there's a similar situation that's still ongoing with SketchUp.. all the render apps are now 64bit but sketchup is still 32.. it's not too big of a deal until you need to render something big (physically large image.. a few thousand px wide will be ok)





yeah, i guess that's up to how the individual software companies run their show.. for me, my main two applications are rhino and indigo.. both of them run open betas.. so new features are worked out via the more adventurous users and by the time the version is officially released, most everything has been squashed..

Rhino looks cool, but i only see the windows version available. The mac os x version seems to be still in development according to their site. Wouldn't you be better served by going to the win/pc side which would cost less and be more powerful, have more finished features?

Same thing for indigo...

 

[flat five]

Rhino looks cool, but i only see the windows version available. The mac os x version seems to be still in development according to their site. Wouldn't you be better served by going to the win/pc side which would cost less and be more powerful, have more finished features?

Same thing for indigo...

nah.. rhino is sweet on mac.. it's been out for 4 years now and it's free to use (though not officially supported.. i wouldn't recommend bringing it into a larger enterprise at this point unless there are a few windows seats as well).. the developers are great and listen to their users to the point where the users can help with the development. that, at least for me, is a very good thing.

 

[BJonson]

All this talk about the New Mac Pro and the needs of the pros is funny because apple doesn't give a dang about you. Never did.

Apple has only two philosophies and that is to make everything smaller and to make it all cheaper to make more money. Take the iphone for example. The thought of making the iphone screen bigger is literally killing them. They are holding out as long as they can on that iphone screen and its showing in sales. If they could make the new mac pro the size of a peanut they would. They don't care about your needs or your storage setup. Apple never gave a crap about what people need. They build products that impress themselves. That is all Steve ever did, impress the hell out of himself. So expect everything to get smaller and smaller until it is a invisible. Then apple will shut its doors and happily go out of business because they won't be able to amaze themselves anymore.

 

[flat five]

If they could make the new mac pro the size of a peanut they would.

why say that as if it's a bad thing? that would be freaking awesome.

 

[throAU]

People fear change.

It could be 3x the size with 15 slots and 8 sockets and people would find something to bitch about.

"It won't fit on my desk! Apple aren't thinking of professional users who need this on their desk!"

"My lights go dim when I power this thing up! My electricity bill is insane!"

"I put my back out shifting my desk, apple need to make this thing smaller!"

"Ever since apple announced the mac pro, my toilet is blocked, I blame Tim Cook!"


etc.

 

[GreenWater]

All this talk about the New Mac Pro and the needs of the pros is funny because apple doesn't give a dang about you. Never did.

Apple has only two philosophies and that is to make everything smaller and to make it all cheaper to make more money. Take the iphone for example. The thought of making the iphone screen bigger is literally killing them. They are holding out as long as they can on that iphone screen and its showing in sales. If they could make the new mac pro the size of a peanut they would. They don't care about your needs or your storage setup. Apple never gave a crap about what people need. They build products that impress themselves. That is all Steve ever did, impress the hell out of himself. So expect everything to get smaller and smaller until it is a invisible. Then apple will shut its doors and happily go out of business because they won't be able to amaze themselves anymore.

1. Make everything smaller
2. Make it all cheaper
3. Make more money

Which were the two philosophies out of the three?

 

[flat five]

1. Make everything smaller
2. Make it all cheaper
3. Make more money

Which were the two philosophies out of the three?

i guess he meant 1 & 3 ?

because re:2.. i remember buying a phone in the 90s meant you were spending $40 or so.. or if you were feeling extra fancy at the time, you'd get the sweet $200 wireless which had good range & clarity & extra features..

but we all know how much phones cost these days and i'd say apple played a key role in making it that way..

they don't want to make things cheaper.. they want to find the perfect balance between expensive and affordable.. make things as expensive as possible while maintaining a large audience.

 

[BJonson]

Yeah, when I said make it all cheaper I meant they make it cheaper for them to produce. Customers don't get the benefit of that.

 

[aggri1]

nah.. rhino is sweet on mac.. ...

Hi!

I love Rhino, so much fun. I haven't used the Mac version for a while, but is it still abysmally slow compared with the Windows version? I tried it, and the horrible sluggish interface was one of the main reasons I stopped using it, and restarted in Windows.

Cheers,
A.

 

[flat five]

Yeah, when I said make it all cheaper I meant they make it cheaper for them to produce. Customers don't get the benefit of that.

oh. right.


the problem with talking like that is this: you can't say "apple's main goal is to get as much money from you as possible.. instead, buy this brand"

don't get me wrong.. i'm fully into taking down the man.. count me in. but honing in on a single corporation isn't going to do jack. it's like arresting the corner coke dealer and expecting some sort of change with drug abuse. it's useless..

switching from one corporation to another? they want you to do that because you're still in the system.. no different than switching from republican to democrat and thinking you've made some sort of choice.. you ever step back and notice how exactly identical republicans and democrats are? they're the same freaking people.. you didn't make a good choice - you perpetuated the problem.

but yeah, i think many (most?all?) people here recognize the fact that apple wants their money. bringing it into a conversation as an argument is, well, i don't know what it is.. but you're coming in and taking a strong stance and making a strong point and being all huffy puffy or whatever but most (all?) of the people reading it are like "yeah, no shit dude"

 

[flat five]

Hi!

I love Rhino, so much fun. I haven't used the Mac version for a while, but is it still abysmally slow compared with the Windows version? I tried it, and the horrible sluggish interface was one of the main reasons I stopped using it, and restarted in Windows.

Cheers,
A.

yeah.. i hear that quite a bit from windows users and of course it makes sense. fwiw, i'm pretty sure if i used windows rhino after using the mac version for 4 years, i'd say the same thing.. ("geezlouis this is slow.. why are the menus acting like that.. etc")..

anyway.. i'm not sure when the last time you tried it but custom keystrokes and toolbars and macros and display options have been hooked up.. so it's speeding up a lot in that regard

 

[calaverasgrande]

why say that as if it's a bad thing? that would be freaking awesome.

freaking awesome for a consumer machine.
I think that is the big disconnect in the discussion about the new Mac Pro. Some of us look at it as a neat piece of gear, kind of a hobbyist/prosumer perspective.
Some of us only see it as a solution to a specific engineering problem.
I'm kind of in the middle. I'm a computer guy at work, and I nerd out with music hardware for fun. So I can see the gee-whiz aspect as well as the "what does it solve".
The whole smaller is better is kind of silly to me either way. Sure the old Mac Pro is a boat of chassis, but it also has many more capabilities than the new design. The newer smaller MP essentially shuts the door on a whole lot of usage scenarios, but certainly is more attractive to many users that likely skipped over the old Mac Pro for an iMac or MacBook Pro, just because they didn't want "some big old computer" in their office/studio/livingroom.
I'm not making stuff up. I've heard those exact words uttered.

 

[goMac]

I blame a lot of that "foot dragging" where in belongs - with Apple. They were the ones taking their sweet ass time on developing the Cocoa APIs that were actually useable.

Hmmmmm? I can't think of anything that made Cocoa unusable since.. probably 10.3? Maybe 10.2?

The biggest problem was that some things only worked in Carbon and some only in Cocoa, which wasn't world ending since you could mix the two. What exactly was missing/unusable?

Most of the blame at Apple gets assigned by companies who were expecting Apple would hand everything to them on a platter, so they refused to port until Apple basically did the porting work for them (looking at you Adobe.)