Why is it ok for other Apple products to use Flash?

[calderone]

what would be the return on investment to get away from Flash? Adobe's tools are very mature making development easy. HTML5 tools would need to be just as mature or you're going to spend a lot longer coding the same functionality. and they will have their own issues, bugs and it will take the developers time to learn them.

if anything is going to kill flash it's Microsoft's Silverlight. and i haven't seen any games using silverlight. tens of millions of people use flash for games like farmville.

What return? Oh I don't know, more ad revenue?

HTML5 is mature, it is based on what the web has been using since the early 90's. HTML5 isn't new, it is an improvement on what every website in existence is using.

It doesn't take long to code the <video> tag. While of course this would be a tad more work, this isn't going to take long to implement.

If you are saying the Hulu developers don't know HTML, then I am surprised they can't put anything together at all. These people know Web Design, which is why they were put on such a large project in the first place. This isn't some starving artists website who can't code anything and use Flash instead.

Point being, I can only imagine that the Hulu project team doesn't consist of Flash developers. Given that the only major Flash component used is the video player.

 

[aarong50]

Well lets see, flash can take 80%+ of cpu power on a full power processor. Anyone wanna take a guess at what that would do to a 1Ghz mobile cpu?

Well here it is on my 3 year old AMD Opteron 165 1.8ghz machine with 2gb ram. It's taking up 38% of my processor which is 684 mhz.

On the Ipad it would only have to focus on this one task and I think 684 mhz of the 1 ghz would be fine if it's the only thing you are doing..

Not to mention Adobe could easily develop a lighter version for Iphone/Ipad if apple would let them.

Does flash suck? Absolutely - but we are fooling ourselves if we think it's anything more than an excuse to make the app store more profitable.

 

[calderone]

Well here it is on my 3 year old AMD Opteron 165 1.8ghz machine with 2gb ram. It's taking up 38% of my processor which is 684 mhz.

On the Ipad it would only have to focus on this one task and I think 684 mhz of the 1 ghz would be fine if it's the only thing you are doing..

Not to mention Adobe could easily develop a lighter version for Iphone/Ipad if apple would let them.

Does flash suck? Absolutely - but we are fooling ourselves if we think it's anything more than an excuse to make the app store more profitable.

What would a "lighter" version be exactly?

And if the major sites offer an HTML5 version, what will you say then? Would Apple pull HTML5 support to make more money in the App Store?

 

[aarong50]

What would a "lighter" version be exactly?

And if the major sites offer an HTML5 version, what will you say then? Would Apple pull HTML5 support to make more money in the App Store?

I think if and when HTML5 becomes popular and is everywhere they will not have much choice. I think that the "resource hog" excuse is accurate but they are using it to their advantage for as long as they can. It will be kinda hard to make excuses as to why HTML5 isn't viable.

And what would be a lighter version?

http://www.adobe.com/products/flashlite/

 

[zap2]

I think if and when HTML5 becomes popular and is everywhere they will not have much choice. I think that the "resource hog" excuse is accurate but they are using it to their advantage for as long as they can. It will be kinda hard to make excuses as to why HTML5 isn't viable.

Have you seen CPU usage for flash on OS X?(Windows is better, as some one above posted a screenshot to show)

Its unreasonably high.

That said, Apple should be working with Adobe here

 

[aarong50]

Have you seen CPU usage for flash on OS X?(Windows is better, as some one above posted a screenshot to show)

Its unreasonably high.

That said, Apple should be working with Adobe here

That's the point - it's not Adobes fault that OSX is causing resource issues - Windows is doing just fine..

Also, for anyone else interested here is a 1 1/2 year old Tmbobile G1 with a 528mhz processor using flash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghIGj9r3_vc

 

[calderone]

I think if and when HTML5 becomes popular and is everywhere they will not have much choice. I think that the "resource hog" excuse is accurate but they are using it to their advantage for as long as they can. It will be kinda hard to make excuses as to why HTML5 isn't viable.

And what would be a lighter version?

http://www.adobe.com/products/flashlite/

Again, what is this "When HTML5 is popular" idea? HTML5 is the next iteration of HTML. HTML has been the markup language of the net since the beginning.

HTML5 doesn't need to become popular, it will trickle onto the web as designers recode and remove deprecated code.

This does not stop Flash heavy sites from recoding now.

I am not following the bolded part, your conjunction doesn't really convey a contrast.

Flashlite requires creating new flash. (This is what I gathered from the demos you linked.) If that is the case, then why not recreate the content with web standards.

That's the point - it's not Adobes fault that OSX is causing resource issues - Windows is doing just fine..

Also, for anyone else interested here is a 1 1/2 year old Tmbobile G1 with a 528mhz processor using flash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghIGj9r3_vc

It is Adobe's fault. They are the ones who write Flash, Apple does not. Just because Adobe isn't competent enough to create a smooth running version of Flash for Mac OS does not mean it is Apple's problem.

My HTC Hero does Flash, it isn't quick by any means.

 

[NT1440]

Well here it is on my 3 year old AMD Opteron 165 1.8ghz machine with 2gb ram. It's taking up 38% of my processor which is 684 mhz.

On the Ipad it would only have to focus on this one task and I think 684 mhz of the 1 ghz would be fine if it's the only thing you are doing..

Not to mention Adobe could easily develop a lighter version for Iphone/Ipad if apple would let them.

Does flash suck? Absolutely - but we are fooling ourselves if we think it's anything more than an excuse to make the app store more profitable.

WHY are you taking a benchmark on your windows machine? Its no secret that flash on windows is way more efficient than in OSX.

 

[GorillaPaws]

it's not Adobes fault that OSX is causing resource issues

This is false. Apple completely re-architechted it's plugin architecture in Snow Leopard's Safari (i.e. bent over backward to accommodate Adobe's Flash). If Adobe were to open source it's code, I'd bet that flash on OS X would be radically improved in a few months and might even be able to run well on mobile hardware.

I understand that Adobe doesn't have the resources to devote to improving Flash on OS X to the degree that this needs to take place, which is exactly why they ought to open source their code.

As for the theories about Apple protecting it's iTunes/app store revenue from flash competition, I suspect that Apple probably more-or-less breaks even on it's digital distribution revenue. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of apps sold are free, but still require a large investment in distribution costs, not to mention all of the expenses involved with the approval process. Perhaps they see this as an important source of revenue in the future, but I'd be willing to bet that they're still banking on hardware as their primary revenue stream.

 

[iVoid]

I don't normally discuss stuff with newbies but I have to agree with you.

When Jobs "supposedly" said the reason Flash wasn't on the iPhone etc. was due to it being the number one reason Mac's crash I had to laugh.

I agree. WHY does he allow it on all Mac's.

Because he doesn't have the facist dictatorship control over all Mac apps like he does on the iPhone OS.

I'm sure he'd love to restrict what people can do with the Mac OS X, but it's harder to put the genie back in the bottle when it's been out for 26 years.

 

[goosnarrggh]

This is false. Apple completely re-architechted it's plugin architecture in Snow Leopard's Safari (i.e. bent over backward to accommodate Adobe's Flash). If Adobe were to open source it's code, I'd bet that flash on OS X would be radically improved in a few months and might even be able to run well on mobile hardware.

Adobe has published all the specifications necessary to implement a 3rd-party Flash player. They make it available for anybody to use on a royalty-free basis. Has anybody stepped to the plate yet with a better Mac implementation?

 

[dsnort]

That still doesn't explain why Jobs supposedly said that Flash was the number one reason for crashes on Mac's.

If it's so bad and it's the number ONE reason. WHY allow it ?

Just a thought. Because Apple lacks the clout in computers to kill flash. Macs are like what, 5% of computers? Why should Adobe care if Flash sucks for Macs?

But the iPhone is on it's way to dominating it's market segment, a very significant market segment that is likely to grow rapidly over the coming years. Here Apple has some capital. The iPad is poised to extend this market.

 

[Outrigger]

Best line I've ever read...who do you think you are? I hope it makes you feel good about yourself knowing you don't "normally discuss stuff with newbies." What a joke

He is obviously confusing post counts with knowledge base. A typical mistake made by people lacking knowledge base (aka newbies)

 

[juanster]

I think most people's mistake when bashing flash is to think that flash is a web only thing like Html. I do flash most of the time because the things that can be achieved in flash can;t or are very very complicated to achieve at the moment in Html5. I have no problem with Flash disappearing on the web, it will still be used everywhere else (gaming, apps(any platform(air),non browser-apps that is), car panels, plane panels ad all sort of cool stuff).

If the web changes to Html5 that's fine I'll go back to old school scripting and do many re-tests for all browsers all over again.

And those of you who think when flash is done you won't see any banners you are crazy. The only reason banners are done in flash is because it's easier to do in Flash, as soon as flash is "eliminated" the same developers will turn back and use <canvas> and others to create the same banners.

All I'm saying is I won't mourn flash until it is actually gone.

Like with the iPhone ive heard soooo many stories in the as about something killing flash and it is stronger now than ever. Flash is not going anywhere for a while.

 

[GorillaPaws]

Adobe has published all the specifications necessary to implement a 3rd-party Flash player. They make it available for anybody to use on a royalty-free basis. Has anybody stepped to the plate yet with a better Mac implementation?

Publishing the specs and open sourcing the code are two radically different things. If they open source the code people can actually dig in and try to fix the existing problems.

 

[pubwvj]

Flash = resource hog.
Flash = advertisements.
Flash = glitz, eye candy, glam.
Flash = Ugh.

I run with Flash turned off on my browsers.
It is soooooo much better.

 

[smetvid]

Flash = resource hog.
Flash = advertisements.
Flash = glitz, eye candy, glam.
Flash = Ugh.

I run with Flash turned off on my browsers.
It is soooooo much better.

Um HTML 5 will be able to do Ads, glitz, eye candy, glam and ugh. It isn't Flash the technology that is the problem but the talent ( or lack of) that goes overboard. The reason you have animated junk is because designers and developers have the tools to do so. Flash is used for this because it just couldn't be done with HTML very well in the past. With HTML 5 everybody now has the option to create as much useless garbage as they want and put it every where. 8 year old kids will be animating for free every single thing they can get their hands on. The web will become one giant animated mess. At least the tide was held back slightly before due to Adobe Flash costing so much. Stop blaming the technology but the companies that insist on using animated ads to sell their products. As a Flash designer I wouldn't be caught dead making a banner but if a company wants to spend money to do exactly that then fine I will make one. If Flash dies then myslef and every other designer/developer will just do the same exact sort of stuff with HTML 5. As long as companies want this crap we will make it no matter what tools we have to do so.

By the way how are you going to turn off HTML in your browser once Flash is gone? Right now you can turn off Flash but you will not have that option with HTML 5 so you will be forced to watch the entire flood of garbage that is sure to come.

Seriously you need to think about what you wish for. The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.

 

[bossxii]

That's the point - it's not Adobes fault that OSX is causing resource issues - Windows is doing just fine..

Also, for anyone else interested here is a 1 1/2 year old Tmbobile G1 with a 528mhz processor using flash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghIGj9r3_vc

... and you think this is smooth video playback? Looked rather choppy to me, stuttering every few frames. The only time he let us actually watch the full screen was on the scrolling text.. big deal. Soon as that video started playing it was not smooth at all. Top off the stuttering with the fact he's suppose to be showing off flash 10 the current version... so basically showing they still have a resource hog that slows down your mobile device to a crawl.

I watched it twice thinking it was the entire video stuttering due to my cable modem, but it's not, it's clearly on the phone that's stuttering, I'll pass.

Decided to watch it a third time... maybe the video is just bad, as in stop motion video? lol not sure but it wasn't smooth playback from what I'm looking at.

I guess if this is considered "acceptable" in the windows world, our standards and expectation of what is acceptable performance, is very, very different.

 

[Chaos123x]

Actaully Adobe does let other people develop their own flash plugin.

Do you think Adobe made the plugin for Nintendo's Wii Opera Broswer? Well they did not.

The issue is it's only open for older versions of Flash, not version 10.

 

[greygray]

Best line I've ever read...who do you think you are? I hope it makes you feel good about yourself knowing you don't "normally discuss stuff with newbies." What a joke

Because majority create useless/ repeated threads and a lot are trolls.

 

[Denarius]

It's already been said on here, pretty much, that OS X is an open platform with the frameworks and APIs readily available so that anybody who wants to write software for it is able to do so. The iPads source is closed so nothing goes without Apple's say so.

The fact is that Adobe's current implementation of Flash for OS X can crash the browser and seems to demand a lot more processing power than one would expect for what it does. It's been that way for quite a while and Adobe haven't shown much enthusiasm about trying to address it. Perhaps there'll be more luck when they get to the 64-bit version.

That said, I think Apple are a little bit melodramatic about the whole issue: if everybody knows that it's Flash creating the crashes then ultimately it's Adobe's reputation rather than Apple's that's at stake.

But I like their desktop software. I wish someone would produce something as good at a more sensible price. Come on, step up somebody.

 

[tdream]

Because they want you to shop @ the **** store. MBP etc.. they can't control your media, ipad - iphone - apletv they can.

This is the answer.

N900 can run flash and it's based on the same hardware as the 3GS.

Well here it is on my 3 year old AMD Opteron 165 1.8ghz machine with 2gb ram. It's taking up 38% of my processor which is 684 mhz.

On the Ipad it would only have to focus on this one task and I think 684 mhz of the 1 ghz would be fine if it's the only thing you are doing..

Not to mention Adobe could easily develop a lighter version for Iphone/Ipad if apple would let them.

Does flash suck? Absolutely - but we are fooling ourselves if we think it's anything more than an excuse to make the app store more profitable.

Your old computer is not running at 684 mhz, it's running at full whack 38% of the time. T=1000ms

 

[bozzykid]

If they didn't have flash on Macs, no one would buy them. iPhones and iPads are not main computers where you absolutely need flash but would be nice to have.

Jobs shouldn't be telling everyone that you get the full internet experience on the iPad then.

 

[EssentialParado]

I wonder why they didn't build crash resistance into this platform?

Because they don't want to - and they shouldn't have to - build crash resistance into their OS specifically for Flash. They're tackling the problem at its core - eradicating Flash altogether. It's going to be replaced by HTML5 over the coming months and years so there's really no reason for Apple to artificially keep Flash alive.

 

[bozzykid]

And if the major sites offer an HTML5 version, what will you say then? Would Apple pull HTML5 support to make more money in the App Store?

I think HTML5 is coming to iPhone apps faster than anyone realizes. With Android gaining popularity and both supporting browsers that support HTML5, you are already seeing a lot of toolkits that let you do app development on both. Basically many apps besides gaming will end up being HTML5 web apps wrapped in a "native app".