Why is no one talking about risks for eye health?

[bkkcanuck8]

You better go back and read up on Apple history. Pay attention to their relationship to Adobe in particular.

Apple did not develop the Mac as a publishing system, Adobe was a supplier of Postscript and fonts used in the system in their WYSWIG display. Adobe invested and saw the value in using the Mac as a platform (the other platform Windows... was not a good platform for that at that point). Pagemaker was originally release in 1985 (was never available on Lisa and not available on the Mac platform at launch). Even the IBM PC which came out to compete against Apple II... was a home (personal) computer... not a business computer... It was entrepreneurs that saw a use for it for business (a cheaper way in to the office) **1 - related story below. From what I can remember of the Mac's introduction it was all about 'personal freedom' and fighting back against the shackles of 1984 and it's mundaneness. It was all creative focused, but it was really aimed at the home user -- using the same applications but more WYSIWIG as available already on earlier computers (Wordstar / Write WYSIWIG, Spreadsheet vs Visicalc/1-2-3, and Apple paint - used mostly for fun). Peppered throughout their presentation - it was a "personal computer" -- a computer for the rest of us (i.e. outside of the business straightjacket).

**1: In fact it was sometime in the 80s I started working on an app created in dBase II, then Fox Software... that basically managed an agent's customer contacts with tracking of customer accounts (sold for $5000 at the time)... then a bit later eventually a Mortgage System and a Mutual Fund Dealership system for much more... at one point managing a couple hundred billion dollars in a glorified dBase style filesystem (really really scarey when I think about it)...

 

[Analog Kid]

Do not dismiss the convenience and luxury of a gourmet chef and someone who'll do housework for you while you do the work you actually want to do.

Sure, I used rather brash language for effect, but there’s no question that the employee values those services more than the equivalent cash in hand. They’ll cut their salary more than it costs their employer.

It’s funny, until you said it the way you did, I’ve never put those things together before— it just occurred to me that it used to be that people undervalued the work performed by a stay at home spouse, and now people overvalue the same services provided by their employer.

But that’s a digression. The point I was trying to make is that a Vision Pro is cheap for some companies if it brings the right talent in at a better price.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

Sure, I used rather brash language for effect, but there’s no question that the employee values those services more than the equivalent cash in hand. They’ll cut their salary more than it costs their employer.

It’s funny, until you said it the way you did, I’ve never put those things together before— it just occurred to me that it used to be that people undervalued the work performed by a stay at home spouse, and now people overvalue the same services provided by their employer.

But that’s a digression. The point I was trying to make is that a Vision Pro is cheap for some companies if it brings the right talent in at a better price.

Think of the toys as bait in a mouse trap... because effectively that is what they are.

 

[Longplays]

Sure, I used rather brash language for effect, but there’s no question that the employee values those services more than the equivalent cash in hand. They’ll cut their salary more than it costs their employer.

It’s funny, until you said it the way you did, I’ve never put those things together before— it just occurred to me that it used to be that people undervalued the work performed by a stay at home spouse, and now people overvalue the same services provided by their employer.

But that’s a digression. The point I was trying to make is that a Vision Pro is cheap for some companies if it brings the right talent in at a better price.

When I was working in FL I was very grateful that my employer took care of

- employee shuttle to/from work
- employee housing
- employee water/internet/cable
- canteen breakfast/lunch/dinner/snacks
- SSN application & having the bank visit us for payroll
- laundry for uniforms
- laundry/dryer inside our employee housing
- employee discounts in surrounding services like haircuts, etc

Pay me 2x but the time saved by their handling it for us is a business cost is a win-win for both of us.

So it really isn't all about compensation but how well taken cared for you are for a better quality of life.

 

[Analog Kid]

When I was working in FL I was very grateful that my employer took care of

- employee shuttle to/from work
- employee housing
- employee water/internet/cable
- canteen breakfast/lunch/dinner/snacks
- SSN application & having the bank visit us for payroll
- laundry for uniforms
- laundry/dryer inside our employee housing
- employee discounts in surrounding services like haircuts, etc

Pay me 2x but the time saved by their handling it for us is a business cost is a win-win for both of us.

So it really isn't all about compensation but how well taken cared for you are for a better quality of life.

They were happy you didn’t demand high enough compensation to achieve that quality of life on your own. That’s all I’m saying. I’ll also bet their costs grew at a lower rate of growth than your pay did, and when times were lean they could adjust the snack choice or defer laundry upgrades more easily than they could adjust your salary down.

I honestly didn’t think this was controversial… I was really just trying to make the point that some companies can easily justify the cost of a vision pro as a recruitment tool.

 

[Longplays]

They were happy you didn’t demand high enough compensation to achieve that quality of life on your own. That’s all I’m saying. I’ll also bet their costs grew at a lower rate of growth than your pay did, and when times were lean they could adjust the snack choice or defer laundry upgrades more easily than they could adjust your salary down.

I honestly didn’t mean to touch a nerve here…. I was really just trying to make the point that some companies can easily justify the cost of a vision pro as a recruitment tool.

Compensation isn't a be all end all.

How you are treated and the level of stress you experience plays a part in it as well.

Young people who tend to be very progressive in their politics may want to work for a relatively low paying employer if they believe their company is green, very inclusive and every other buzz word that they were told in Uni and the Internet to think is important.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

Compensation isn't a be all end all.

How you are treated and the level of stress you experience plays a part in it as well.

Young people who tend to be very progressive in their politics may want to work for a relatively low paying employer if they believe their company is green, very inclusive and every other buzz word that they were told in Uni and the Internet to think is important.

I am progressive, I will have everyone dress in rainbow uniforms if that saves or makes money...

 

[Surf Monkey]

Apple did not develop the Mac as a publishing system, Adobe was a supplier of Postscript and fonts used in the system in their WYSWIG display. Adobe invested and saw the value in using the Mac as a platform (the other platform Windows... was not a good platform for that at that point). Pagemaker was originally release in 1985 (was never available on Lisa and not available on the Mac platform at launch). Even the IBM PC which came out to compete against Apple II... was a home (personal) computer... not a business computer... It was entrepreneurs that saw a use for it for business (a cheaper way in to the office) **1 - related story below. From what I can remember of the Mac's introduction it was all about 'personal freedom' and fighting back against the shackles of 1984 and it's mundaneness. It was all creative focused, but it was really aimed at the home user -- using the same applications but more WYSIWIG as available already on earlier computers (Wordstar / Write WYSIWIG, Spreadsheet vs Visicalc/1-2-3, and Apple paint - used mostly for fun). Peppered throughout their presentation - it was a "personal computer" -- a computer for the rest of us (i.e. outside of the business straightjacket).

**1: In fact it was sometime in the 80s I started working on an app created in dBase II, then Fox Software... that basically managed an agent's customer contacts with tracking of customer accounts (sold for $5000 at the time)... then a bit later eventually a Mortgage System and a Mutual Fund Dealership system for much more... at one point managing a couple hundred billion dollars in a glorified dBase style filesystem (really really scarey when I think about it)...

Sure. Whatever. I don’t see how this proves anything. There was a hot market for a better computer in the 1980s. The context isn’t the same now. The AVP is not the next Mac.

 

[theorist9]

Agree, and the issue is deeper than that. Apple is basically just shotgunning potential use cases. Is anyone going to want an employer to tell them “you’re going to work inside this headset from now on. IT is coming up to take your desktop tomorrow.” Is anyone going to want their spouse to put on this ugly, alienating almost-helmet to lurk creepily around their little kid’s birthday party taking 3D pictures and video?

Apple clearly has no idea. They’re just spitballing and hoping one of these ridiculous scenarios will stick.

I think they've made a good case for its use in content consumption. But content creation—especially for those doing standard office work involving documents and spreadsheets—will be a much more significant challenge. A keyboard, mouse, and one or more large monitors is already highly optimized for that work, so I'm skeptical if people who spend all day in front of such a setup would find a VR headset could improve on this.

On the other hand, these could be killers for for content consumption: Games, architectural and scientific visualizations (watching them, not necessarily creating them), and possibly movies.

 

[Surf Monkey]

I think they've made a good case for its use in content consumption. But content creation—especially for those doing standard office work involving documents and spreadsheets—will be a much more significant challenge. A keyboard, mouse, and one or more large monitors is already highly optimized for that work, so I'm skeptical if people who spend all day in front of such a setup would find a VR headset could improve on this.

On the other hand, these could be killers for for content consumption: Games, architectural and scientific visualizations (watching them, not necessarily creating them), and possibly movies.

I don’t think they have made a good case for content consumption. The cases they demonstrated were solitary. Isolated. Many, perhaps most of us want to have a shared experience.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

Sure. Whatever. I don’t see how this proves anything. There was a hot market for a better computer in the 1980s. The context isn’t the same now. The AVP is not the next Mac.

I missed it if anyone said it if AVP is the new Mac, I didn't... some said they would (at least try) to use it all day, but then some people use the iPad all day or their iPhone all day... AVP is another device and like any device it is what you make of it... two people can watch the same event and have different ideas on how they are going to use it... it does not make either wrong or invalid. I could see a lower priced Vision selling enough (3 or 4 years from now when the mass manufacturing and supply chain issues have been worked out) to be close in volume to the Mac sales... but then that is not that difficult given what I expect to be the competition... Macs make up a small overall percentage of the entire market it is in.

 

[yadmonkey]

So how VR/AR headsets work is that the project slightly different angles to both eyes, which results in stereoscopic field of view as you would get with your naked eyes. Because of this and the lens array for each eye, you're actually focusing further in front of you than the screens physically are.

I think people forget that we see everything through a mechanism that is exactly the same size as a human eye.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

I don’t think they have made a good case for content consumption. The cases they demonstrated were solitary. Isolated. Many, perhaps most of us want to have a shared experience.

I think you are overstating the shared experience... I don't see people using their computers as a shared experience, nor their iPad or iPhone (even when out to dinner those on their device are not participating in the 'shared experience'). Even watching TV is for the most part not a shared experience... you may compromise on what to watch... but people talking while watching something... would be annoying... TV will still be a thing for news etc. in the kitchen area or something but families are not large, and people have different interests. If you want a shared experience - you would typically go out to do something together... even if it is just a blockbuster movie (and maybe a meal before or after). The AVP would replace other solitary experiences...

 

[TLewis]

But content creation—especially for those doing standard office work involving documents and spreadsheets—will be a much more significant challenge.visualizations (watching them, not necessarily creating them), and possibly movies.

It's a niche market but, if Apple can truly deliver on the "movie theater"-like experience, Apple will likely sell lots into the video/audio post production industry (TV & movies, among other things). This is where people use dedicated hardware panels/consoles like these to edit video/audio on a Mac Pro using software like DaVinci Resolve. I suppose the big question here is whether or not the Vision Pro can connect to a Mac Pro. My guess is "no", at least initially, but we'll see (Apple really needs to make that happen to help keep the Mac Pro line alive).

 

[Surf Monkey]

I think you are overstating the shared experience... I don't see people using their computers as a shared experience, nor their iPad or iPhone (even when out to dinner those on their device are not participating in the 'shared experience'). Even watching TV is for the most part not a shared experience... you may compromise on what to watch... but people talking while watching something... would be annoying... TV will still be a thing for news etc. in the kitchen area or something but families are not large, and people have different interests. If you want a shared experience - you would typically go out to do something together... even if it is just a blockbuster movie (and maybe a meal before or after). The AVP would replace other solitary experiences...

You’re not describing average people.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

You’re not describing average people.

Please expand on how average people are social with those devices that does not apply to the Vision Pro...

 

[SB1500]

If VOX are publishing it, how trustworthy could it be?!

 

[Surf Monkey]

Please expand on how average people are social with those devices that does not apply to the Vision Pro...

If you need me to explain how people are social with one another I can’t help you.

 

[Surf Monkey]

If VOX are publishing it, how trustworthy could it be?!

There’s an issue with VOX?

 

[bkkcanuck8]

If you need me to explain how people are social with one another I can’t help you.

OK then, I will have to take it as your statement "You’re not describing average people." was no more probative than a child stating that "no it's not" or "yes it is". I am willing to entertain that I am not average, but I fail to see how the technology that it is replacing will make the Vision Pro be used less socially than that it is replacing -- and apparently you have no good arguement on why it is.

 

[Surf Monkey]

OK then, I will have to take it as your statement "You’re not describing average people." was no more probative than a child stating that "no it's not" or "yes it is". I am willing to entertain that I am not average, but I fail to see how the technology that it is replacing will make the Vision Pro be used less socially than that it is replacing -- and apparently you have no good arguement on why it is.

Human beings are social animals. Isolation does not come naturally to human beings.

 

[TLewis]

Human beings are social animals. Isolation does not come naturally to human beings.

While humans are social animals, ways of social interaction seem to be slowly changing.

I don't know about elsewhere, but children/teenagers in my area seem to be interacting less in person and more via whatsapp/social media or video games. The social interaction is still there, just in different forms. I'm not sure if this is a good thing, though.

From my standpoint, the Vision Pro really isn't any different than an iPhone or iPad. It's just another way of (remotely) interacting, although certainly an expensive one.

 

[Surf Monkey]

While humans are social animals, ways of social interaction seem to be slowly changing.

I don't know about elsewhere, but children/teenagers in my area seem to be interacting less in person and more via whatsapp/social media or video games. The social interaction is still there, just in different forms. I'm not sure if this is a good thing, though.

From my standpoint, the Vision Pro really isn't any different than an iPhone or iPad. It's just another way of (remotely) interacting, although certainly an expensive one.

Ready Player One is a DYSTOPIAN fantasy, not an aspirational vision of an optimistic future. Interacting with people on TikTok is not the same as interacting with actual people. Same deal with VR/AR. It’s an isolating technology, not a social one.

 

[theorist9]

While humans are social animals, ways of social interaction seem to be slowly changing.

I don't know about elsewhere, but children/teenagers in my area seem to be interacting less in person and more via whatsapp/social media or video games. The social interaction is still there, just in different forms. I'm not sure if this is a good thing, though.

From my standpoint, the Vision Pro really isn't any different than an iPhone or iPad. It's just another way of (remotely) interacting, although certainly an expensive one.

Social apps are valuable for people who otherwise might not interact at all (e.g., elderly folk who don't go out). And they are a fine supplement to regular social interaction. But they're not a replacement for it, because any interaction over a computer is far less rich, complex, and challenging than interacting in person. And thus important skills are thus lost if we socially interact less in person. It's not merely a matter of the same thing over a different medium. In this case, the medium determines the richness of the interaction.

 

[Jensend]

I don’t think they have made a good case for content consumption. The cases they demonstrated were solitary. Isolated. Many, perhaps most of us want to have a shared experience.

With whom are you sharing the nerdy rumor forum posting experience?

I've had many shared experiences with VR, both in person and online with friends who live in other states and countries. I probably spend a larger percentage of my time in shared experiences in VR than I do with any other screened device I use.

VR can be a better way to connect to people than something like FaceTime, because you can do a shared activity together in what feels like a shared space.