MP All Models Why is older MP loosing so much value now?

[avro707]

It's hard to sell me (and presumably others too, hence the post) on a Mac whose own stock I/O is so outdated that you have to buy a PCIe SSD to make up for the difference. Though inter-compatibility on PCIe cards between MacPro5,1 and MacPro7,1 (and presumably Mac14,8 too) is a nice touch.

You have to compare the 5,1 with what else was available at the time. Was NVME storage even available in 2010…

A Radeon RX6900XT wasn’t even built back then but the 2010 Mac Pro can be upgraded with both and with newer wifi and Bluetooth so it remains useful.

If Apple is to bring on GPU driver updates then we should be fine for 7000 series AMD GPUs in our 7,1 machines.

Otherwise we just use windows and install whatever we want.

 

[Yebubbleman]

You have to compare the 5,1 with what else was available at the time. Was NVME storage even available in 2010…

A Radeon RX6900XT wasn’t even built back then but the 2010 Mac Pro can be upgraded with both and with newer wifi and Bluetooth so it remains useful.

An RX6900XT and newer Wi-Fi/Bluetooth aren't worth crap if the system bus is too ancient to provide meaningful bandwidth to the rest of the system.

NVMe wasn't available back then, and sure a PCIe card will be better than the SATA II interfaces, but, even then, what am I buying other than a Mac that has to be hacked to hell just to run Monterey?

I get a need to keep 4,1 and 5,1 machines that are still used as tools alive. I get the retro collector element nature to it. But unless we're living in the past, macOS-wise, I don't see the practical point of picking one up in 2023.

 

[russell_314]

None of this has been true for years. Bar the EFI/BIOS differences, the intel macs ARE Windows machines. There hasn't been any qualitative difference in the OSs for years. Build quality? Yes. But at the expense of easy repairability. With the exception of the Cheesegraters, Macs are vastly more difficult to work on. True, there are Windows-based exceptions, like Surface, which are equally unrepairable. And they are STILL not as well built as Macs.
This is not a sneer at Macs. I have two and love them, although they are desktops. I have little love for any laptops, whoever makes them. Too many compromises.

I’m not talking about the build quality of the operating system, but the build quality of the hardware. If you’re buying a cheap Windows computer, it’s mostly made out of plastic with a really poor quality display.

Better quality laptops made by companies other than Apple are out there but they’re not cheap. Sure, you’re likely to be able to get one a little cheaper than a MacBook but you’re not saving a ton of money. Also, when you buy a windows computer you get zero hardware support. That’s where repairability is going to become really important. I’m not concerned about repairability of my MacBook Air because I’m not going to repair it. I have AppleCare so I’m taking it to the Apple Store. Some windows computers are starting to offer something similar, but it’s not really common.

 

[Yebubbleman]

Also, when you buy a windows computer you get zero hardware support.

This is false. Every PC from any notable manufacturer comes with a 1-year limited warranty. The base warranty may not be great, but you absolutely have hardware support. That being said, you buy the right kind of machine, you can have next day on-site repair service; something Apple won't ever offer you unless you are a business with over 200 machines in your Apple Business Manager instance.

That’s where repairability is going to become really important.

Incidentally, Apple has some of the least repairable computers on the planet. To say that their repair processes are technician-hostile compared to those of other laptop manufacturers would be an understatement.

I’m not concerned about repairability of my MacBook Air because I’m not going to repair it.

Yes, that's because - even if you wanted to - you can't. These are laptops with absurdly low repairability, relative to other laptops. Frankly, the fact that these machines are so technician-hostile is the kind of thing I try to forget when taking them to the Apple Store. I just always hope that the Genius Bar tech getting paid half of what the going rate for my IT jobs pay knows what he or she is doing.

I have AppleCare so I’m taking it to the Apple Store. Some windows computers are starting to offer something similar, but it’s not really common.

Starting to? Many Windows machines have HAD this for YEARS and again, often times they're leaps and bounds better than AppleCare! You just don't know about it.

 

[DCBassman]

I’m not talking about the build quality of the operating system, but the build quality of the hardware. If you’re buying a cheap Windows computer, it’s mostly made out of plastic with a really poor quality display.

Better quality laptops made by companies other than Apple are out there but they’re not cheap. Sure, you’re likely to be able to get one a little cheaper than a MacBook but you’re not saving a ton of money. Also, when you buy a windows computer you get zero hardware support. That’s where repairability is going to become really important. I’m not concerned about repairability of my MacBook Air because I’m not going to repair it. I have AppleCare so I’m taking it to the Apple Store. Some windows computers are starting to offer something similar, but it’s not really common.

@Yebubbleman nails it. And here in the UK, Apple stuff is yet more expensive.
Not to mention the landfill that is old iPhones and iPads, which are essentially useless once out of support. That is pretty much unforgivable.

 

[DCBassman]

Anyhoo, well off-topic!
My MP 3,1: had it about a month, paid £20 for it, vgc, in original box, inc manual! So the thread title is right on the money - they're losing value big time.

 

[avro707]

An RX6900XT and newer Wi-Fi/Bluetooth aren't worth crap if the system bus is too ancient to provide meaningful bandwidth to the rest of the system.

NVMe wasn't available back then, and sure a PCIe card will be better than the SATA II interfaces, but, even then, what am I buying other than a Mac that has to be hacked to hell just to run Monterey?

I get a need to keep 4,1 and 5,1 machines that are still used as tools alive. I get the retro collector element nature to it. But unless we're living in the past, macOS-wise, I don't see the practical point of picking one up in 2023.

Rather than getting snappy maybe look at benchmarks, even those from users in this forum.

Anyhoo, well off-topic!
My MP 3,1: had it about a month, paid £20 for it, vgc, in original box, inc manual! So the thread title is right on the money - they're losing value big time.

Not surprising- it’s a 3,1, that cannot be upgraded to the levels of a 5,1.

I looked at a good one on eBay at AUD$2800, mint condition dual X5690 but only K5000 GPU, 96GB ram. You could put a 32GB W6800 Radeon pro in that. Or a 6900XT.

 

[Matty_TypeR]

The Mac pro 5.1 is still a work horse for me, i have 3 of them 12 core 3.46ghz with 96g of ram. I can replace parts if required, and with the expert advice and know how from these very forum's have been upgraded over time with BT, GPU and storage. Yes they are older and yes not as fast as later Mac's but at least i can repair myself. and they still produce a lot of work.

If you want the latest and greatest then repair is out of the question with soldered in Hardware and zero upgrade path thats the choice you make. when you look at the 2nd hand market you can see Apple must have sold a lot of 4.1 and 5.1 Mac pro's as you see so many.

Only few weeks ago speaking to a friend, he had purchased an Imac 24" for his wife as a gift after her recovery from cancer in 2013 and in conversation she said it was not useable anymore as safari was slow and web pages didn't open properly anymore. So it was sat there, only thing she did was keep it for all the projects she had done in the past as she is a care home nurse activity manager.

So i asked if she would mind if i had a look at it, which i did. it was still on mavericks, 8g ram and 250g HD so i said would you mind if i took it away to give it a tune up. Took it apart and fitted 32g of ram, new 2tb SSD replacing the spinner drive in it. Loaded Caterlina on it and took it back. She was gobsmacked when she tried it. Amazing she said much faster than before and she now uses it everyday for her activity projects for the retirement home she works at.

No its not the fastest, but it was upgradable and is in use everyday now. for some they dont need the latest and greatest but Modern Mac's you cant do this to. Once any part fails your Mac goes to recycling or the tip. To see her smile at a gift from her husband some 10 years earlier was a magic moment.

So if you don't mind some older Mac and wish to get it working better than original config with out spending money you might not have and are prepared to learn how to in places like these very forum's then thumb's up to you all i say.

 

[Yebubbleman]

Rather than getting snappy maybe look at benchmarks, even those from users in this forum.

I'm not sure what about not understanding the point of an old Mac Tower constitutes as "getting snappy". Incidentally, I'm not sure what benchmarks from people with a MacPro5,1 affinity would do to convince me that there is a point to buying this machine past being a collection piece or as a means to repair one that is still in operation running expensive and esoteric software. It's an old machine. The best I can do is throw in some new parts to make parts of its operation seem less old while neverminding that its CPU, RAM, and chipset are all old enough to get ready to exit middle school.

 

[mcnallym]

@Yebubbleman nails it. And here in the UK, Apple stuff is yet more expensive.
Not to mention the landfill that is old iPhones and iPads, which are essentially useless once out of support. That is pretty much unforgivable.

Why are the iPhones landfill. Especially here in the UK then your iPhones and iPads once no longer used can be taken to Apple Store for recycling.

Apple even have there recycling system so can strip down iphone for recycling etc.

if your old iphone and iPad is landfill in the UK then that is down to YOU not using the recycling program that Apple has.

 

[Matty_TypeR]

Why are the iPhones landfill. Especially here in the UK then your iPhones and iPads once no longer used can be taken to Apple Store for recycling.

Apple even have there recycling system so can strip down iphone for recycling etc.

if your old iphone and iPad is landfill in the UK then that is down to YOU not using the recycling program that Apple has.

They end up in a draw or cupboard for years as people dont like to throw away what were expensive items that are no longer supported even if they work. After years in draw eventually they end up at the tip or in the bin, as why would people spend on postage to return to apple to dispose of at there cost and time doing so.

Apple is far from green, they drop hardware support to make you buy new.

 

[DCBassman]

Why are the iPhones landfill. Especially here in the UK then your iPhones and iPads once no longer used can be taken to Apple Store for recycling.

Apple even have there recycling system so can strip down iphone for recycling etc.

if your old iphone and iPad is landfill in the UK then that is down to YOU not using the recycling program that Apple has.

By that, I meant that the hardware becomes useless. Great, give it back to Apple to recycle, let them make YET MORE profit from you! Really? My point is that this degree of planned obsolescence is simply wrong.

 

[DCBassman]

Not surprising- it’s a 3,1, that cannot be upgraded to the levels of a 5,1.

Indeed it can't, if MacOS is your OS of choice. But twin Xeons and 16GB of RAM will work really well with Linux, and continue to do so for many years to come. Even my Core 2 Duo iMac runs Linux really well, far better than trying to force it to run, say, Catalina. This hardware is fabulous, so it should be useful as lonfg as possible.

 

[DCBassman]

To be clear about what I do with my IT hardware: I use old stuff exclusively. I cannot afford even the cheapest new kit.
A great deal of what I use is given to me, for example my phones are hand-me-ups from my oldest son! I also have developed an eye for a bargain, and scour eBay and Facebook marketplace often, with some great results, not least my iMac, whose only fault was that the owner had tried a reinstal and got stuck. The MP3,1 was one of those chance encounters that I grabbed and ran before they changed their mind! My Windows machines are built from parts I scavenge from whatever souces I can find.
So I'm a bit narked, to say the least, by the very idea of planned obsolescence.

 

[throAU]

Seems like the price on ebay for used MP's has really been dropping for both the Tower and Cylinder to less than $500. Is that because of the M1 chip or just not supporting OSX past 12.6.5.?

Intel Macs won't be supported forever.

Also, have you actually used an Apple Silicon Mac? If so, the answer should be self evident.

 

[avro707]

Indeed it can't, if MacOS is your OS of choice. But twin Xeons and 16GB of RAM will work really well with Linux, and continue to do so for many years to come. Even my Core 2 Duo iMac runs Linux really well, far better than trying to force it to run, say, Catalina. This hardware is fabulous, so it should be useful as lonfg as possible.

I agree with you on that. I've said it before, but I can't imagine when the 5,1 was designed that those people who built it would have imagined those machines would run Monterey very well, have modern bluetooth and WIFI functionality and fast NVME storage, let alone powerful modern GPUs.

I have a 5,1 which was got second hand only for its dual CPU tray and that's now running as a single CPU X5690 machine with RX6600XT GPU and SSD, it serves in my cycling trainer pain-cave connected permanently to a Kickr Bike and a massive 4K LCD screen. It runs latest Monterey beta version and Zwift. The thing is damn stable too compared to what I hear from others using all manner of other different hardware. Zwift it runs in highest detail without a drama. It could do a lot more than that if I needed it to. It could probably handle my work if it had to, it wouldn't be as fast as my 7,1 but it would do in a pinch (although I have the maximum spec 6,1 as well). My original 5,1 I got new in 2010 got fully upgraded with dual CPUs and maxed out in all respects.

The folk who designed that machine got it right.

This planned obsolescence could also very well be applied to Apple Silicon machines too, Apple could easily cut off older Silicon based machines in regular cycles just to force people to spend $$$$ on new machines regularly. Maybe they won't but do people really trust that Apple won't do that...

 

[DCBassman]

I agree that the cheesegraters are more than the sum of their parts. It is particularly good that it, and presumably many other otherwise outdated Intel Macs, can install Linux natively. I've done it on both of mine, and they run it as fast and smooth as MacOS. That pleased me greatly, because I worried that I'd wasted the little cash I spent on what would become scrap metal.

 

[kvic]

I have a 5,1 which was got second hand only for its dual CPU tray and that's now running as a single CPU X5690 machine with RX6600XT GPU and SSD, it serves in my cycling trainer pain-cave connected permanently to a Kickr Bike and a massive 4K LCD screen. It runs latest Monterey beta version and Zwift. The thing is damn stable too compared to what I hear from others using all manner of other different hardware. Zwift it runs in highest detail without a drama. It could do a lot more than that if I needed it to. It could probably handle my work if it had to, it wouldn't be as fast as my 7,1 but it would do in a pinch (although I have the maximum spec 6,1 as well). My original 5,1 I got new in 2010 got fully upgraded with dual CPUs and maxed out in all respects.

This is a nice testimonial of how Intel Macs benefit from both worlds (PC land and Mac world) in long term, e.g in this case more than a decade and still functional today. And this is not going to repeat for Apple Silicon machines. I guess some ppl will argue you could still expand through Thunderbolt bus, USB bus, and PCIe bus (on 2023 MP). I won't dispute but just to point out it's much less flexible than before and with very limited usages.

The folk who designed that machine got it right.

Just a reminder. The architecture is like any other PC workstation from that era. A PC workstation can last this long as well. Upgrades will be much easier to perform by end users. OS support is plentiful, be it Linux, FreeBSD or Windows.

What Apple towers stand out is close integration of hardware and OS, better pick of quality hw components (that's actually to be expected due to premium price), and cool industrial design (sometimes this is subjective).

PCs caught up a lot on hardware/OS integration in the past twenty years. For carefully picked PCs, it's on par with Mac hardware experience. Same goes to quality parts used in carefully picked PCs.

What keeps Mac still kinda unique is MacOS in my opinion. Personally, that's what keeps me from leaving at the moment. Apple hardware (and other iDevices) is secondary or tertiary consideration. So I really hope MacOS won't go downhill and receive proper care from Apple.

 

[solaris8x86]

Due to the latest Ventura doesn't support hardware acceleration on both 5,1 and 6,1 Mac Pro. And the Opencore team is incapable to develop patch to enable hardware acceleration on them (5,1 and 6,1 on Ventura). So people foresee that they are no longer capable to be upgraded to the future release of Mac OSes. So everyone dumps the old mac now. Their last fully functional operation system is 12.6.7 Monterey.

 

[mcnallym]

They end up in a draw or cupboard for years as people dont like to throw away what were expensive items that are no longer supported even if they work. After years in draw eventually they end up at the tip or in the bin, as why would people spend on postage to return to apple to dispose of at there cost and time doing so.

Apple is far from green, they drop hardware support to make you buy new.

So basically again. People cannot be bothered to use the recycling opportunities that are there. we don’t want to have to spend any money to recycle the old equipment.

so basically saying we want to be green but we don’t want to pay anything to be green.

 

[mcnallym]

By that, I meant that the hardware becomes useless. Great, give it back to Apple to recycle, let them make YET MORE profit from you! Really? My point is that this degree of planned obsolescence is simply wrong.

And that is not what landfill is. Might want to think how make what trying to say known as it simply came across as that people dumping their recyclable obsolete equipment at the dump.

 

[DCBassman]

as it simply came across as that people dumping their recyclable obsolete equipment at the dump.

Erm, you do understand that most people do exactly that...I've 'rescued' stuff from the dump many many times. Some of it is certainly still in use!

 

[DCBassman]

And in any case, there is zero landfill here in Devon. And even if you do just toss computers in their dumpsters, they do get recycled these days. Again, my point was about the planned obsolescence of these things when that is technically wrong.

 

[DCBassman]

Due to the latest Ventura doesn't support hardware acceleration on both 5,1 and 6,1 Mac Pro. And the Opencore team is incapable to develop patch to enable hardware acceleration on them (5,1 and 6,1 on Ventura). So people foresee that they are no longer capable to be upgraded to the future release of Mac OSes. So everyone dumps the old mac now. Their last fully functional operation system is 12.6.7 Monterey.

So use something other than MacOS on these machines, then they will last much longer. If you *must* have the most recent MacOS, then you must buy the machines. It's why Apple does it this way.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Due to the latest Ventura doesn't support hardware acceleration on both 5,1 and 6,1 Mac Pro. And the Opencore team is incapable to develop patch to enable hardware acceleration on them (5,1 and 6,1 on Ventura). So people foresee that they are no longer capable to be upgraded to the future release of Mac OSes. So everyone dumps the old mac now. Their last fully functional operation system is 12.6.7 Monterey.

I use my 5,1 with OCLP. I'm on Monterey with RX 5700XT now, but I assumed if downgraded to Polaris or Vega, I could use Ventura.