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Server class cpu, ram, motherboard, ps, and case. That's why Mac Pros are so expensive.

It's not meant to be a consumer level box.

Hence that's why the layman will think its overpriced.


No. Even if you factor in the extra cost for the heavy-duty PSU and aluminum case, there is no reason why the base-spec model could not come in at $1999

And the 3.2GHz W3565 upgrade is a real rip-off. $400 more for a CPU that costs exactly the same as the base W3530?

And the Dell would still end up being around 1000$ cheaper.

$1000 is pushing it, but ±$500 cheaper, sure.
 
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Yet what those hackintosh prove is that Apple is charging a "Mac Pro tax" of around 1000$, +/- a few hundreds depending on configuration. Even if that tax was only 500$ +/- a few hundreds, the question remains: why?

It just proves you can put Mac OS X on cheaper hardware. Which is why so many people do it. People have put Mac OSX on netbooks, but obviously a netbook would never be considered a workstation class computer.
 
Now you've made me hate you. :eek: I live in a hot climate, and have to use a window AC in the computer room/office just to handle the heat off of a system running a single GPU (4870, so nothing insane either). :D :p

yeah but you don't have to go out and shovel snow. I'm so glad winter is over.
 
You are not comparing like with like. The comparable model to a Mac Pro is the Dell Precision T5500 and specced up the Dell is about $1,000 more than the Mac Pro. :p

He is comparing like with like!

The comparable model to the base Mac Pro (SP workstation) is the T3500.
The comparable model to the MP Mac Pro is the T5500.

The T5500 is available as an SP Workstation and when specced similarly is more expensive than the comparable Mac Pro.
 
even thou it can be spec'ed that way, it has an empty 2nd socket.


And your point is? :confused:

Back in 2009 The Register specced up an SP 5500 and a Mac Pro

Mac Pro $2,499
Dell T5500 $3,630

So for over $1100 less you could get a Mac Pro instead of a Dell. A bit like getting a Mercedes that costs less than a Hyundai. :D
 
Brands cost money. Image has a cost/value delete as applicable.

Why does a Mac cost more than an equal spec PC?
Why do BMW saloons cost more than Ford ones with the same engine size and power?
Why do Levis cost more than Tesco own brand jeans?
Why does a meal at the Ritz cost more than at McDonalds?
Why are Sony tech items more expensive than the same item made by Humax?
Why do Converse sneakers cost more than Vietnamese copies?

Brand identity gives perceived increase in value in a society where fashion and superficial judgments based on appearances count more than economic logic.
Ultimately if you like the concept you buy in to it. OS X and dedicated hardware specifically designed for it is just another branding exercise.
Don't buy it? Then don't buy the brand.
 
And your point is? :confused:

Back in 2009 The Register specced up an SP 5500 and a Mac Pro

Mac Pro $2,499
Dell T5500 $3,630

So for over $1100 less you could get a Mac Pro instead of a Dell. A bit like getting a Mercedes that costs less than a Hyundai. :D

As it still has a second socket, it must use Xeon 5000-series CPUs. The CPU in the 3797$ SP configuration costs 1663$ alone, whereas the CPU in 2499$ Mac Pro costs 294$.

That same applies to your link which makes it useless.

Dell T5500 and SP Mac Pro ARE NOT COMPARABLE!

Why is it so damn hard to get it that Mac Pro is overpriced compared to e.g. Dell's offerings?! :confused:
 
Why is it so damn hard to get it that Mac Pro is overpriced compared to e.g. Dell's offerings?! :confused:

On the low end, yes. On the high end (Skulltrail+X5600), no. Unless you think maybe OS X isn't worth 200.00 extra. But hw isn't very impressive if you are unhappy running your OS. Still would rather have a PB G4 than a Core i7 Dell laptop.
 
The base model has a 5660 @ $800.

What base model? I was looking at the 3797$ configuration you linked, which has 1663$ CPU in it..

BTW, X5660 costs 1219$... A config with that is around 3000$.

I have no idea what you are trying to achieve since no matter how much you try to justify it or post false specs and prices, it won't make the SP Mac Pro any better value. It costs a lot more than Dell's equivalent. Period.
 
Depends on what you are doing in Enterprise. Think Reprographics. :apple:
Racks of servers for Reprography?

That can be handled by a desktop/workstation for the computing end, while the real work is done by the printer technology used to generate the actual output (banners, blueprints, ...).
 
I have no idea what you are trying to achieve since no matter how much you try to justify it or post false specs and prices, it won't make the SP Mac Pro any better value. It costs a lot more than Dell's equivalent. Period.

Better value is the sum of Hardware + Operating System + Software = Performance

Paper spec used to interest me at one time too, then I grew up. ;)
 
Racks of servers for Reprography?

That can be handled by a desktop/workstation for the computing end, while the real work is done by the printer technology used to generate the actual output (banners, blueprints, ...).

So the real work is not in the writing of a book, but in the printing?

You do seem to view the world from an interesting perspective. ;)
 
Better value is the sum of Hardware + Operating System + Software = Performance

Paper spec used to interest me at one time too, then I grew up. ;)
Best fit depends on need, and what's available.

In terms of the hardware, Macs are using the same commodity components every other computer is built of, so there's no "special sauce" in that regard.

As per software, Apple doesn't develop that much. So most is 3rd party, and subject to the same developmental compromises that are made on any other platform (set goals on function/features and how to utilize development time that's within budget to generate them).

Depending on your needs, the OS may even be dictated by the software choices, as well as things like needing all the software to run on a single OS (i.e. VM not viable for whatever reason). For example, you want to run 3 software suites, and only one is even available under OS X. But they may have one OS in common, and booting between multiple OS's is a PITA.

So the real work is not in the writing of a book, but in the printing?
You're saying clusters are needed to write books? :confused: What are you smoking? :eek:

Books can be written on desktops, laptops, netbooks, or tablets. Smart phones too, if someone has indestructible fingers. :p
 
In terms of the hardware, Macs are using the same commodity components every other computer is built of, so there's no "special sauce" in that regard.

Actually there is. OS X runs on a limited amount of hardware and it's easy to test against that whereas impossible to test against the Frankenstein assortment of parts that make up OEM PCs. In addition Apple gives you a a better case, better keyboard and better display than the OEMs. That counts.

As per software, Apple doesn't develop that much. So most is 3rd party, and subject to the same developmental compromises that are made on any other platform (set goals on function/features and how to utilize development time that's within budget to generate them).
Let's see: Safari, Mail, Bento, Keynote, Pages, Numbers, iTunes, iLife and many more. You might as well claim that Microsoft doesn't make much in the way of software.:rolleyes:

Many of the Mac software houses gave up making Windows versions for the simple reason that it wasn't cost efficient. Windows sales accounted for 15% of business, but Windows accounted for 85% of the costly support calls.
Why? Windows is required to run on a tremendous variety of hardware and the truth is that it often doesn't run very well on them. As above, you cannot test your software on every type of PC hardware.

Depending on your needs, the OS may even be dictated by the software choices
Agreed. I use Scrivener 2 and Keynote for most of my work. Windows would be useless.

You're saying clusters are needed to write books?
I didn't say that at all. You implied that the important part of Reprographics was not the creation of it, but the printing. While the latter is an important part, the former is far more demanding.
 
better display than the OEMs. That counts.

Last time I checked, the display is not included in the Mac Pro. I would also claim that the ACD isn't that great and Apple only offers one option. For example Dell offers various displays of many sizes, including U2711 which uses the exactly same panel as the 27" ACD.

Let's see: Safari, Mail, Bento, Keynote, Pages, Numbers, iTunes, iLife and many more. You might as well claim that Microsoft doesn't make much in the way of software.:rolleyes:

Internet Explorer, Outlook, Word, PowerPoint, Excel, Windows Media Center/Player...

Pulling up the software card is always moot. If you need a software that is Mac only, then Mac is your only option but that is only you, so claiming that a Mac is better in general isn't fair.

If we get back to the original point, yes, the SP Mac Pro is still overpriced compared to its competitors. However, the extra price can be justified if your needs are driven by OS X. On the other hand, if one uses no OS X only software, then it can be hard to justify the big premium.
 
Actually there is. OS X runs on a limited amount of hardware and it's easy to test against that whereas impossible to test against the Frankenstein assortment of parts that make up OEM PCs. In addition Apple gives you a a better case, better keyboard and better display than the OEMs. That counts.
I was talking about the electronics it's made of are the same. There's no "special sauce" or Apple magic involved.

The case may be pretty, but it's not as important as the rest of the system. I don't know if you've ever been inside other workstations, but they tend to be rather nice internally (drastic difference between these and cheap budget boxes).

Monitor: Mac Pro doesn't come with one (this is the Mac Pro section afterall, not the iMac area).

Keyboard and mouse: They're not ergonomic (keyboard in particular). Pretty, Yes. But they actually hurt me, and I have to use 3rd party gear, no matter the system. Fortunately, such 3rd party equipment exists, or I'd have been in surgery (CTS). :)

As per the limited amount of hardware (aka closed system), in theory it produces fewer bugs. Unfortunately, this hasn't proven true in the recent past (particularly with the 2009 MP's). MR's full of threads on such issues (there are repeats), but there have been significant issues, such as the overheating issue by the audio drivers in the 2009 MP's amongst others.

Let's see: Safari, Mail, Bento, Keynote, Pages, Numbers, iTunes, iLife and many more. You might as well claim that Microsoft doesn't make much in the way of software.:rolleyes:
I didn't say Apple doesn't write software, but overall, it's not professional related (more general use and entertainment related).

Most of your heavy lifting professional software comes from 3rd party vendors, whether it's run under OS X or Windows.

Many of the Mac software houses gave up making Windows versions for the simple reason that it wasn't cost efficient. Windows sales accounted for 15% of business, but Windows accounted for 85% of the costly support calls.
Why? Windows is required to run on a tremendous variety of hardware and the truth is that it often doesn't run very well on them. As above, you cannot test your software on every type of PC hardware.
Care to back this up with some proof? Particularly "many" part?

I ask, as when I think of professional software, I usually see vendors providing multi-platform support. Adobe, Autodesk, and even National Instruments does (one of their products even runs under OS X). There's others as well, but they go for Windows due to the fact that it's used by the majority of users. Thus there's a higher potential for profit, which makes sense.

For consumer grade software, they may concentrate on one OS, which is usually good for the consumer's who buy those products, as it's a natively written application rather than one that's been ported (such applications tend to suck).

Agreed. I use Scrivener 2 and Keynote for most of my work. Windows would be useless.
It all comes down to usage. What works for you may not work for someone else.

My usage OTOH, has to do with hardware design, so applications I use come from companies like National Instruments and Synopsys. Synopsys doesn't make OS X versions, and National Instruments only offers an OS X version for a single product. VM didn't work (had to pass hardware data from instruments), and rebooting between Windows and OS X is a PITA, so the best solution is to run Windows.

Further, I use RAID and do surface scans on HDD's before placing them in an array (allows me to find a suspect/bad disk prior to using it, and thus saves lots of headache trying to diagnose a bad one once it's in the array). Unfortunately, the sofware used (comes from the disk maker) is designed to run on a BIOS machine, which means the low level information isn't passed properly on an EFI/UEFI model (i.e. you cannot do this on a Mac). This may not be that big a deal for Mac users (until the disk starts having problems), but for me, it is.

Building a RAID system was also more expensive on a MP due to the case design.

So when I take the above 3 reasons into consideration, using a PC running Windows was the best solution in my case.

I didn't say that at all. You implied that the important part of Reprographics was not the creation of it, but the printing. While the latter is an important part, the former is far more demanding.
The beginning if this had to do with the mention of Dell being better for servers. You then mentioned that there were cases it wasn't, and pulled up the idea that Reprography was one. It was about the hardware, not the effort involved in the content creation. Nothing more.

To me it seem's your truly an Apple fan, and that's fine. But you don't provide sufficient proof, or in some cases none at all, to the arguments you've made. That's why I've posted; counterpoint with fact, rather than just preference spun into superiority.

I'm actually platform agnostic, which means I don't care if the solution is Apple, Windows, or Linux. It's all a combination of odds and ends that should result in the fewest number of compromises = best solution for the particular need.

If you go back and look at various RAID threads, the vast majority of the OP's are using MP's and OS X based creative software. You don't see me trying to convert them to PC's and Windows versions of what they run. I just try help them figure out the right storage solution for their needs and budget.

Last time I checked, the display is not included in the Mac Pro.
Exactly.

Internet Explorer, Outlook, Word, PowerPoint, Excel, Windows Media Center/Player...

Pulling up the software card is always moot. If you need a software that is Mac only, then Mac is your only option but that is only you, so claiming that a Mac is better in general isn't fair.
Too much of Steve's special Kool-Aid perhaps. :eek: :D :p

If we get back to the original point, yes, the SP Mac Pro is still overpriced compared to its competitors. However, the extra price can be justified if your needs are driven by OS X. On the other hand, if one uses no OS X only software, then it can be hard to justify the big premium.
Nice simple way to put it. :)
 
Cost Breakdown

1) Premium you pay for OS X operating system
2) Premium you pay for Apple Styling
3) Premium you pay for Apple Brand

Otherwise it's just a box, with high quality components just the same as any other high quality desktop box.

I own a new Mac Pro because I'm willing to pay those premiums.

Can it be justified as that much better than any other premium box? No.
 
Cost Breakdown

1) Premium you pay for OS X operating system
2) Premium you pay for Apple Styling
3) Premium you pay for Apple Brand

Otherwise it's just a box, with high quality components just the same as any other high quality desktop box.

I own a new Mac Pro because I'm willing to pay those premiums.

Can it be justified as that much better than any other premium box? No.
If you're only looking at it from a hardware perspective, there's validity to this statement on the SP versions of the MP (i.e solely used to run Windows or Linux).

But once DP models or the necessity of OS X applications are added to the mix, this may not hold true (definitely doesn't with the necessity to run OS X based applications, as a Hackintosh isn't a good idea for a professional environment; home/enthusiast users are another story, as they presumably have the time to track down solutions and fix issues themselves).
 
Last time I checked, the display is not included in the Mac Pro

Just because you can buy a PC system which includes the monitor, don't think you getting the monitor for free. You can bet its price is added in total cost of the system. Often that monitor is cheaply made to lower the price of the complete package.
 
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