Ah I see - some articles out there talking about the atom version as well.
I hadn't seen that on Microsoft's website.
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Tablets Why is the Surface apparently a big deal compared to the iPad?
- Thread starter caspersoong
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Ah I see - some articles out there talking about the atom version as well.
I hadn't seen that on Microsoft's website.
Indeed, not to mention that there's no jailbreak available right now for newly purchased iPads, as they all run iOS 6.
I don't see Surface competing well as a consumer device. There are good arguments for use by professionals who are already heavy windows users and need a portable option.
But many like me are already issued a fully capable notebook as our only business computer that we can use both in the office and portably so have no need for this capability in a second device. I don't know that IT departments are going to want to buy both the desktop and a tablet for users when they could just buy them a decent notebook and maybe a second monitor and docking station.
But many like me are already issued a fully capable notebook as our only business computer that we can use both in the office and portably so have no need for this capability in a second device. I don't know that IT departments are going to want to buy both the desktop and a tablet for users when they could just buy them a decent notebook and maybe a second monitor and docking station.
I think there a LOT of "settlers" out there, people who feel as if they settled when choosing the ipad and iOS, or android. It made us make a choice 3 years ago versus using a desktop OS, or using a phone OS. At it's heart the ipad has a phone OS. I think first and foremost Windows tablets will eat Android market share, and also people who have not purchased any tablets yet, but I do think they will eat some of Apple's market share as well.
Apple will always have a huge audience, and I can't see that they will continue to rest on their laurels as they have been this last year or 2. No doubt they will reinvent themselves again and keep their market share.
Ars Technica just released their Windows 8 review, and as usual does a great job highlighting the good and bad about the platform.
My opinion of Win8 is that it isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be, but it is very much an "every other version" of Windows. Much like Vista was clunky, unoptimized, and made whole loads of sweeping changes to the OS that were eventually perfected with Windows 7, Windows 8 is likely to be the weird, rough cut version of Windows 9.
Win8 won't be the huge disaster Vista was simply because it performs a helluva lot better than even 7. The biggest problem is it's really goofy in how it handles Metro alongside the old desktop. The new Start screen is fine once you get used to it, but when you get deep into the RT side of things, you do see that, yeah, it does kinda feel like it's one OS overlaid on the other rather than one complete whole. The article states it in plain black and white, MS could've done a much better job integrating the desktop with Metro.
My summary after using 8 for a few months? Not an absolute trainwreck, just weird. I give it a 7.
It's kinda weird how I constantly defend Win8 and the Surface while I myself am slowly migrating over to the Steve Jobs cult. I guess it's because I like the direction MS is going better overall than Apple, but I kinda like where Apple is right now better than what MS is currently offering. It's the difference between not bad, very promising vs. really damn good right now.
My opinion of Win8 is that it isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be, but it is very much an "every other version" of Windows. Much like Vista was clunky, unoptimized, and made whole loads of sweeping changes to the OS that were eventually perfected with Windows 7, Windows 8 is likely to be the weird, rough cut version of Windows 9.
Win8 won't be the huge disaster Vista was simply because it performs a helluva lot better than even 7. The biggest problem is it's really goofy in how it handles Metro alongside the old desktop. The new Start screen is fine once you get used to it, but when you get deep into the RT side of things, you do see that, yeah, it does kinda feel like it's one OS overlaid on the other rather than one complete whole. The article states it in plain black and white, MS could've done a much better job integrating the desktop with Metro.
My summary after using 8 for a few months? Not an absolute trainwreck, just weird. I give it a 7.
It's kinda weird how I constantly defend Win8 and the Surface while I myself am slowly migrating over to the Steve Jobs cult. I guess it's because I like the direction MS is going better overall than Apple, but I kinda like where Apple is right now better than what MS is currently offering. It's the difference between not bad, very promising vs. really damn good right now.
Anandtech's review is out. Good to see a review from people who know what they are talking about. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/the-windows-rt-review
Looking forward to my surface's arrival tomorrow!
Looking forward to my surface's arrival tomorrow!
It is no different than rooting an android device. Both allow u to put more things on the device the original manufacturer didn't put on there. Does it really matter. It isn't that much different than downloading and installing an app from the app store. Alittle more intensive but it puts new options at your fingertips that u didn't have before. I love having the toggles for wifi, location, blutooth, etc... In the notification bar. Would rather have that than facebook and twitter options.
I'm tempted but I'll not spend the $$ especially since I dropped more money then I wanted to spend on the mini.
I think MS put in some serious design time to produce a nice tablet, like google with the nexus devices they produced one to show how it can be done.
I think MS put in some serious design time to produce a nice tablet, like google with the nexus devices they produced one to show how it can be done.
Here's another misconception people have with jailbreaking; 95% of the "features" you need to jailbreak an iOS device for can be done on an unrooted android device. Using your example, if your android phone didn't come with toggles in the notification shade, there are a number of apps available in the Play Store that will add them, no rooting required. Rooting is only required for a small group of (powerful) system apps. Go a step further and an unlocked bootloader will enable you to flash custom roms, which is an entirely different beast.
And in light of recent events:
rooting = not illegal
jailbreaking ipad - ILLEGAL!!!
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No - not saying that any large corporations use pages and numbers, that was related to MS not having the only solution.
I'll stand by my comments. MS is simply trying to make a thin version of a netbook that may work as a tablet.
And I've been in the workforce since before there were computers, pc or otherwise. I've used giant mainframe systems and have had at some point just about every laptop and desktop pc that has come out. Everyone talks about the new Surface being able to run any pc program and connect to any pc peripheral and that is just going to be a complete cluster. MS and their pc manufacturers have enough trouble getting programs and periphs to "work" on standard desktops and laptops - WHY do you think the Surface is going to be any better?
And for those that don't remember, the old touchscreen "tablet" windows laptops that were part laptop, part touchscreen tablet, were complete rubbish. I used one for a week and couldn't stand it and refused to keep using it for work. MS is simply not learning from their mistakes and they're trying to convince you that what they're doing now is somehow better and the right way and I don't buy it.
And what MS is doing is just further supporting the huge IT industry that has been set up to "fix" the issues MS has built into their system. I applaud them for figuring out a way to keep all these high-paid IT guys (and gals) doing the same schtick for the foreseeable future. This is one issue that Apple just doesn't get - cracking the enterprise market can only happen if you get buy-in from the IT people who control the market. Apple's been forcing the issue somewhat with employees pushing to use Apple product, but to truly get a foothold, they need to pander to the IT crowd and create products and systems that are fraught with issues that only the IT crowd can fix.
A question I have is who managed the iPad roll-out? Did you create custom apps to do what your company wanted/needed to use the iPads for? You say it didn't have good Office compatibility - does that mean it was your IT guys, who of course were schooled in MS systems, worked on the roll-out? Yes, 2 years ago when the iPads launched, the iWork apps weren't what they are now, but again, what exactly was the supposed use of the iPads? Was it really supposed to be a laptop replacement where people were generating docs and spreadsheets?
Because if that was the case, then whoever thought it should be this way was about as clueless as you can get. The iPad isn't supposed to just be a smaller version of a laptop. Who really wants to create docs and spreadsheets on an iPad. I know I don't. I've tweaked files (both word and excel) on my iPhone, when I needed to quickly get something to a customer, but that's the exception, not the rule. Checking and responding to email - that's easy. Running custom apps that work for a small touchscreen tablet is how it's supposed to work.
If doctors at your current employer don't have the proper app to do what they need to do, of course the iPad isn't going to serve them well. Why would you or anyone else think it would or should? Create a custom app that more quickly and easily gets them the information they need and I can guarantee you that they'd use and benefit from the iPad. Again, it takes a company with vision to see beyond just trying to do what they're doing now on a smaller screen. I can guess that whatever hospital / patient system you're using now was probably created by a company that is today working on an iPad/Android app that does exactly what I'm talking about. If they're not, they'll end up losing the business to some company that comes in with exactly that.
Just look at what's happening at retail. You have a chain like Urban Outfitters/Anthro that is ditching their entire cash register system, to be replaced by iPads running a custom app. They get to dump the $2500 (each) registers and use $500 iPads that will do everything the register does, plus be portable, plus have access to system inventory. They'll also not have to pay the typical recurring fees associated with register systems. They created their own app to do what they wanted and you're going to see this same thing play out in lots of businesses.
Making desktop programs run on a tablet is not progress or innovation, but it certainly seems to be the direction MS is going.
You have a point but today the IT in small and medium buisness supporting all kind of devices including iPads, iPhone and everything the employees bring from home.
I don't think surface is ready for enterprise yet. not with the current specs (128GB if i'm not wrong).
Apple also have some tools to control the idevices and there are many solutions from companies..
time will tell
A lot of doom and gloom, but yes on some levels Microsoft deserves it. They fumbled the lead they had with tablets badly, Apple picked up the ball and scored a touchdown. MS also fumbled the lead they had with smartphones and once again Apple scored a touchdown. It seems as if MS is extremely serious this time around, they understand they have to transform into something else to continue to survive.
There were some very good tablets out there. Ever use the TC1100? A very nice tablet that gets pretty universal rave reviews, that is one example. I've personally also used some of the Fujitsu P series tablets for intakes of new patients, which were very nice in their time. But I won't deny that the majority of them were horrid and MS dropped the ball, not only them but the PC makers both in hardware and software.
As for connecting to peripherals Windows as an ecosystem is extremely robust in that sense. 420 million peripherals, let that sink in, 420 MILLION peripherals that can connect through USB. That's just an amazing figure that the ipad doesn't have, what in the name of being simple? I'm sorry but I'll take some acceptable percentage that some of those 420 million devices won't work, although in 15 years of using windows devices I've rarely had an issue with a peripheral not working, especially after windows XP. The usefulness of peripherals is not to be understated and I think that's one of the things that will propel people past the current Toy Tablets out there.
The bottom line IMO is that it's a REAL Os, something you can sink your teeth into and get some work done. Pop it out and it becomes a tablet with all day battery life that you can take on the road with you. Pop it in and it becomes a full powered laptop that you can do serious work on. Dock it and you can connect it to a nice 28" monitor, keyboard and mouse and have a complete desktop station. It's just incredible and something I personally have been waiting for 10+ years, biding my time settling with iOS. Windows tablets are going to be huge IMO, that's Pro, not RT which IMO is going to fail miserably and unfortunately will be an anchor to Pro.
Complacency breeds mediocrity and that has been especially true for MS. They owned the market and rested on their laurels thinking they'd stay on top forever.
I understand your point with the peripherals, but again that represents the past and at some point you have to push forward. It's what Apple gambled on and so far it's been the right decision. For you personally, you're not (taking an educated guess) using 420 million usb peripherals right now are you? That would require one really big usb hub!
I'm sure there are some technical products that only recently swapped over from either some 20+ pin proprietary connector or a DB or scsi or V type connector (which is yet another conversation to have about companies living in the past), but look at where printers are going, as a perfect example. About a month ago, I went to get new cartridges for my wide format inkjet printer. Instead of getting the cartridges, it was cheaper to just buy a new printer, which happened to be a wifi printer - a bonus for me as I have wanted to move the printer away from my desks. And now I can, did rather.
Whether it's the right or wrong decision, things are moving away from cabled connections to wireless, wifi or bt.
Times, they are a changing and holding on to the past - tech-wise or life in general, is not a way to move forward. Yes, it may be difficult to let go of what you know, what you have today, but you're going to end up changing at some point whether you want to or not. MS might still be building products and software to address old legacy periphs and systems, but as the 3rd party peripheral companies move forward in their own attempt to get a piece of the new non-MS, Apple or Google pie, you'll be forced, or MS will be forced to follow in the footsteps of Apple and Google yet again.
I switched from pc to mac for the exact reason you say you like MS's OS's - so I can just get work done. I can guarantee you that I've been more productive and it's true for those in my company that have made the switch as well. Unless you're an IT person, where your business is tech, I'm not sure why you'd want to have to dig in to windows to make it do what you want so you can get work done. Just doesn't make sense to me.
"Complacency breeds mediocrity...They owned the market and rested on their laurels thinking they'd stay on top forever."
I just want to let that quote from you sink in, it's very significant. You are 110% correct, that's exactly what happened to Microsoft. They dropped the ball so badly in terms of tablets and smartphones now it is coming back and really hurting them.
But the reason I like your quote is that it seems, IMO, to describe Apple today. The ipad was incredibly revolutionary, it was complete genius and it moved us forward into the tablet world single handedly. But it has remained essentially the same since it was introduced, similar to the iphone, but you can get away with that much more easily in a phone than a "computer". Apple is very much so resting on their laurels, I can't say so much in the sense of hardware since they have improved cpu/gpu, retina screen, etc etc., but they've been incredibly complacent in their OS.
This is where it seems we part ways with our logic processes, and that's ok in a friendly discussion. But obviously we had a MAJOR revolution when laptops came out. People realized that they could lug around their computer with them and be productive, or game, or social, or whatever and not be tied to their home/work. This is the same revolution with tablets, except Apple did not allow us to truly take our laptops with us. It's Apples refusal to give us a full OS experience which IMO will hinder them in the future, it's a hubris. I think if a watered down OS like iOS was what people really wanted then we would all have some kind of stripped down iOS type OS on all of our laptops, maybe chrome, I don't know. But we don't, the vast vast majority, virtually all laptops are either Windows or OSx. Even Apple doesn't sell laptops with iOS on them.
It's understandable if from a technological point of view Apple did not put OSx on a tablet because of hardware constraints. But that day is here upon us TODAY, we have a full blown Windows 8 tablet with the same battery life, form factor, size, etc as the ipad. We have now crossed over from having to settle for a "phone OS" to a real OS, and I think that is going to impact a LOT of people similar to how laptops impacted desktop users, or how the ipad impacted laptop users, but even more so because now there is no compromise. Really it's shortsighted not to see the obvious comparison between the desktop to laptop migration and the laptop to tablet migration. I know I'm far from the only one who is profoundly affected by actually having Windows (or OSx if that's your preference) on an ipad sized tablet.
As for peripherals, you can spin it any way you like, but millions and millions of USB devices is not anything to sneeze at. Sure some of them are moving to wireless/bluetooth, but I'd rather not have to wait years for that to become standard, it just makes no sense in the meantime to not have a USB port and support, maybe it will in 5 or 10 years, but not today, and I don't buy my computers/tablets for 5-10 years down the road.
Do I think Apple is going to wither and die? Of course not, it's an incredible company that I have a profound respect and love for. But I do think they are going to have to turn on a dime here and reconsider the tablet world. Is there a place for a purely consumption driven tablet? Certainly yes, but the differentiating factor would have to be price. Dollar for dollar the ipad and the windows Pro Atom machines are about the same, so there is no differentiation between a consumer saying oh I can watch videos and play music for $699, or I can have Windows for $699 all other things being equal, which they are.
What I think is that Apple is too smart and they are already planning something, and of course the ipad momentum won't die overnight it will take years for that to happen. I'll bet Apple is really thinking about a full OS on a tablet, that's if their R and D hasn't already been working on it for years.
A funny thing about tablets...
Bill Gates was probably one of the most vocal advocates of tablets, long before the iPad existed.
How MSFT allowed Apple to come out of no where and basically devour nearly the entire tablet market is completely baffling.
However, while I think the Surface execution needs work, the Asus VivoTab RT Tablet looks far more sensible, and practical.
One thing that needs to happen immediately is everyone needs to stop using those ****** Tegra3 chips.
Bill Gates was probably one of the most vocal advocates of tablets, long before the iPad existed.
How MSFT allowed Apple to come out of no where and basically devour nearly the entire tablet market is completely baffling.
However, while I think the Surface execution needs work, the Asus VivoTab RT Tablet looks far more sensible, and practical.
One thing that needs to happen immediately is everyone needs to stop using those ****** Tegra3 chips.
My only disagreement with you is that Apple is not resting on their laurels - even if what you see from them suggests that. They are still at the point of not fully maximizing what they can get out of the market as it exists today for the iPad, but that doesn't mean that they're not fully entrenched in working towards what the next great invention is. They are a business and the smart thing to do is to reach maximum penetration into a market before change is required to drive sales to a new level - or at least come close so that you don't pull the trigger too late and allow competitors to come in before you with something new.
If I didn't say this before - I'm not an iPad user. I don't see the need or use for it and I also feel the same for the Surface or any Android tabs. I use my iPhone for communication and fast replies to emails (as well as a whole slew of other productivity apps I use), but prefer my MacBook Air for everything else work related. For me, the smaller size of a tablet is just not do-able for the work I do (and for my aging eyes). If I created an app that would make proposals for me easier to do, then maybe I'd change my mind, but I'm not there yet.
The idea around the tablet wasn't to just make a single plane computer that works like a desktop or laptop. The apps that have been created were not just tablet versions of desktop programs, but rather configured to work the way a tablet works, using on-screen gestures and touch. Even MS's touting the ability to have two apps side by side, such as email and a spreadsheet - sounds like a desktop/laptop thing and would be great if it weren't for the fact that you've now shrunk both apps down further in size on an already small screen and that just can't be easy to work that way.
And I too am not buying tech for what will be available in 5 years. I'm saying things are changing much faster than that and what used to be usb only even last year is now wireless. Even the great G-tech external drive I keep archived files on went from being usb connected to my Air to now being connected to the wireless router so I don't have to have it directly connected to the laptop. As I said, change it is a coming even if you don't want it to come.
Great discussion BTW. Your decision not to get the surface specifically makes sense if you need the 13" screen, but you cannot ostracize the entire Windows tablet scene for that reason because there will be 13" and larger windows tablets with keyboard docks with longer battery life than the macbook air. Think about that, you can have the best of both worlds of tablet and laptop AND better battery life. You are correct in that apps should be tailored for a tablet interface, but why settle for just that? Pop the tablet into its dock, make it a laptop and switch desktops to maximize standard computer programs. Of course if you have no use for a tablet at all then neither the ipad nor surface will appeal to you and you cannot necessarily defend the ipad, at least IMO.
As for Apple I agree to a point. I think they are resting on their laurels because they CAN afford to do so, everything they put out sells out instantly. I'm not saying that them resting on their laurels is a bad business decision, on the contrary it is pure genius. That's why I find it hard to believe they will continue to push iOS once the true laptop to tablet revolution begins, they are too smart for that. So yeah, we are certainly in agreement there.
I can't argue much that MS is kind of doing some weird stuff. Take RT for example, it's a necessary evil. RT is the consumption device which is truly destined to compete with iOS, but it doesn't have the ecosystem behind it and it is confusing to the average consumer. Lets hope MS puts it's full weight behind it, but I have a feeling that just like iOS the RT OS will only be temporary. The one advantage RT has is that it makes it easier to have more apps for MS' smartphones which I don't see getting a full Windows 8 OS for many many years, if ever.
I agree with where the discussion is going. It's nice to be able to have an open discussion where real issues can be freely exchanged.
I'm not ostracizing the Windows tablet scene, I'm more fully dubious of the entire tablet scene, iPad and Android-based tablets included. It's very specific to my own issues, mostly related to the screen size, if I'm going to use it as a replacement for a laptop.
Maybe there will be a time when the screen only form factor (in a 13" or larger size) will work, or would have value, for me, but today I'm not seeing it. And don't be so sure that a larger sized tablet would offer better battery life (than my Air) because a larger screen uses more energy. If you say all things are equal and you just take the current Air's total thickness and weight as an example of where you'd be with a tablet. I'm not sure I'd want a tablet to be that big and heavy - or rather I'd just ask myself why not just have it be a laptop? Add to the weight, an issue of fingerprints covering such a broad expanse of screen - it would drive me crazy. I hate the environmental dust and stuff that covers the screen of my Air after a weeks work and I'm not touching the screen at all.
Apple vs MS - it's a philosophical thing. Apple's chose to take the iPhone and iPad down a path that diverged from the desktop OS because they looked at the usage of an iPad and iPhone as being distinctly different than that of a desktop. So people are now getting "bored" with iOS's simplistic use of static icons for apps because - well because it's not like their desktop or laptop computer (although I for one don't have any active "widgets" on my laptop so I'm not missing anything on my iPhone and wouldn't miss anything if I had an iPad).
I'm not one to be bored with this style and I understand the reasoning behind it. If I want something active on the iOS device, just open an app. With iOS, you can so quickly and easily see, navigate, open and close apps, that you really don't need the old school file system to manage apps and files and having all sorts of pretty lights and moving objects on a screen that simply sucks battery life is not something I subscribe to.
Apple is trying to take learnings from iOS and apply them to OSX, with Launchpad being a perfect example. But I hardly ever use Launchpad and instead rely on the dock to see what I've got running.
I think your comment of Apple resting on their laurels means something a little different than I meant. You're saying that because they're not releasing something new and different, they're resting on their laurels? I think, or can actually guarantee, that Apple is always working on new innovative products, systems and services, but the release of new things is set on a calendar that you and I are not privy to until they're ready to release said new thing.
Windows RT and even 8 will live or die depending upon the number and functionality of the apps they can get developers to create and that hopefully consumers will buy said apps which will then further push development of new apps. It's the system Apple has created and it's one reason why their iOS devices are so popular. Even 8 being able to run MS based full programs on a tablet will only work if the experience is one that works for the consumer. If they have to compromise, it won't spell long-term success for the platform. That has been my point to the tablet vs desktop/laptop argument. A 9.7" tablet cum laptop is nothing much more than a 9.7" netbook. It's a jack of all trades, master of none.
Some good points. Personally I just sold my Macbook Air. I bought it primarily for the beautiful hardware as I cannot stand OSx and ran Windows exclusively on it unless I was dabbling in Xcode. When I say we will soon have a 13" tablet with dock with a better battery life than the macbook air, that's in laptop mode AND tablet mode. Tablet mode the atom chips should get 8-10 hours, but in docking mode some of the current ones are getting 14-18 hours! Many of them currently are about the same thickness and weight of the macbook air, they are all just 11.6" max though currently, and they are about half the price if you are looking at the atom CPUs, maybe a bit more than half with the dock. So for almost half the money I can have the size and weight of the macbook air, have a detachable tablet which IS my computer not an addon ipad, have 3-4 times the battery life, if not more, etc etc. The only thing missing so far is the 13" screen, but I have no doubt that will come very soon.
Apple resting on their laurels, IMO most definitely yes. Certainly they are working on the next big thing, but iOS being almost the same as when it was released nearly 5 years ago is to me being complacent, or what is more true is them realizing that people will still line up in droves to purchase their products. I feel as if Apple is going to be forced to utilize whatever ideas they have been working on, or invent new ones, and competition is a GREAT thing.
As for apps, I have confidence that Microsoft will put their full weight behind it. They are a software company, and look what they did with what's arguably at the top of every windows users software list, Office. Don't forget that we have the Metro UI on desktops as well so developers already have millions and millions of possible consumers right out of the gate.
It's certainly going to be an interesting and exciting time from here on out.