Why is website design so awful today, generally?

[Akrapovic]

Can I point out that this thread has 27 pages demanding we have function over form - and then somebody keeps using unnecessary font colours which break the post in dark mode, rendering chunks of the post unreadable.

However, it isn't a surprise that this thread is an accessibility nightmare. We've continually championed sites which break accessibility laws.

 

[Tozovac]

Can I point out that this thread has 27 pages demanding we have function over form

No shocker here, makes sense to me. Sounds like there’s still quite the lingering angst against certain crappy form-over-function interface “improvements” that are (too) slowly being reverted/fixed.

- and then somebody keeps using unnecessary font colours which break the post in dark mode, rendering chunks of the post unreadable.

Sounds to me like another checkmark against the use of trendy light-colored font that’s all show and no go.

In fact, I have yet to come across a dark mode implementation that is truly great. Most dark modes are just instant reversals of monochromatic all-white or mostly-white interfaces into monochromatic all-black or mostly-black, devoid of different-shaded or bordered zones to help the user group certain screen areas.

However, it isn't a surprise that this thread is an accessibility nightmare. We've continually championed sites which break accessibility laws.

It would depend upon me looking at the exact ones you’re speaking of but I will say: some laws are meant to be broken. If a “high accessibility” site means requiring lots of inefficient focus-losing scrolling with large flat-design buttons that rely upon their size to define their tappability instead of using smarter, smaller, more efficient interface cues, then that’s just trading one type of accessibility for another.

 

[Akrapovic]

Sounds to me like another checkmark against the use of trendy light-colored font that’s all show and no go.

It would depend upon me looking at the exact ones you’re speaking of but I will say: some laws are meant to be broken. If a “high accessibility” site means requiring lots of inefficient focus-losing scrolling with large flat-design buttons that rely upon their size to define their tappability instead of using smarter, smaller, more efficient interface cues, then that’s just trading one type of accessibility for another.

I'm sure those using accessibility features will be delighted to hear that laws are meant to be broken.

Next up: why disabled ramps just ain't all that.

By the way, the contrast on the dark mode version of this website is fine. Unless a user who think they're being smart and edgy starts adding unnecessary colour to things and overrides the default settings without checking how they'd actually display.

Black text on a background (which is what you've created) is indeed all show and no go.

 

[Tozovac]

I'm sure those using accessibility features will be delighted to hear that laws are meant to be broken.

Next up: why disabled ramps just ain't all that.

By the way, the contrast on the dark mode version of this website is fine. Unless a user who think they're being smart and edgy starts adding unnecessary colour to things and overrides the default settings without checking how they'd actually display.

Black text on a background (which is what you've created) is indeed all show and no go.

Yeah, because everything I’ve ever critiqued is all about wholesale removal of accessibility in online interfaces. That’s my second favorite hobby after removing disabled ramps and pulling canes from senior citizens along with their hearing aids and glasses.

Sounds to me like the issue is with the maker of Macrumors’ interface that offers font colors that are non-robust for the interface they’ve offered.

By the way, all dark modes aren’t equal. Dark mode may work fine for the most part on this site but it sure isn't implemented robustly well in many others.

 

[Akrapovic]

Ah of course. As usual, it's everybody else's fault and misunderstanding and not your own. Got it ?

That does fit well with the theme of the thread, however.

 

[Tozovac]

Ah of course. As usual, it's everybody else's fault and misunderstanding and not your own. Got it ?

That does fit well with the theme of the thread, however.

My theme is about retaining (or the return of) robust interface details on websites, apps, or OS's that are clear, efficient, and intuitive.

Interface elements that are much more obvious, more efficient, more intuitive… which could and should be interpreted as increasing accessibility for everyone.

Interface elements that cater to trendy over-minimalism or aren't robust enough to handle a simple font change amongst the available font colors don’t sound very helpful towards accessibility to me.

 

[Nermal]

By the way, all dark modes aren’t equal. Dark mode may work fine for the most part on this site but it sure isn't implemented robustly well in many others.

I haven't tested Safari 15, but Safari 14's default dark mode stylesheet offers dark blue for hyperlinks and dark purple for visited ones. They're pretty much unreadable.

 

[nickdalzell1]

Everything is fine for 2010 SeaMonkey here, in dark mode and all. Now, if you want to discuss accessibility nightmares, there's a ton of 'em on old vBulletin forums, including the ability to change fonts to comic sans, and the color to neon greens.

 

[Tozovac]

More and more are getting it and speaking out.

Thanks @Andrew73875

iOS design language

I've noticed there are certain elements in iOS design language which could be improved. 1) Apple should take a good look on iPhone's basic functionality. There are more and more amazing features with each iOS iteration. However, some basic apps look forgotten. First of all, why do we have...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Blimey still looking for that confirmation that someone else agrees with you? What I don’t get is that if you are so passionate about this; why not create your own open source design system that does what you want, is compliant with all laws, and applicable to all screen sizes. That would be awesome wouldn’t it? Surely people would come flooding to the project and you’ll have the highest stars on GitHub. ?

 

[Tozovac]

Blimey still looking for that confirmation that someone else agrees with you? What I don’t get is that if you are so passionate about this; why not create your own open source design system that does what you want, is compliant with all laws, and applicable to all screen sizes. That would be awesome wouldn’t it? Surely people would come flooding to the project and you’ll have the highest stars on GitHub. ?

Ha ha. I don't need external confirmation to know what I know, but more - when I hear others speak of what I’ve spoken for years, it increases the hope those in charge of fixing things at Apple might be of the same mindset.

Supposedly Jony/Apple supposedly used the short-sighted inputs of others clamoring for "something new and fresh" on their iPhone to justify things like iOS 7 and Yosemite. Supposedly Apple responded to complaints over the 2016-2019 MacBooks that resulted in the 14-16" MBP's. If so, then so might voices of the customer help revert back to abandoned aspects of Apple's interfaces that should not have been tossed in the trash bin along with all the felt, stitching, and woodgrain appliqué.

Most or even all of what I call “awful interface design” has nothing to do with sacrificing accessibility but rather, helping it via more efficient, intuitive interface design.

 

[nickdalzell1]

Someone actually has done some type of open-source design thing, albeit only for the Internet Archive

The Old Net

Welcome to the Old Internet Again!

theoldnet.com

That's about as close as you can get to the classic web, which works up to the year 2010. It'd be nice if there were some way to say, browse the classic MacRumors or various other sites or skin them via a FireFox extension. I was able to bring back 'old YouTube' with tons of Firefox extensions, including bringing back the dislike counter, classic player UI, disabling the 'propaganda bar' (the stupid 24/7 Covid doomer panel!), and even the old 2006 logo. I was also able to restore 'old Google' with the older logo and the two buttons below it, and the classic bar menu up top. Unfortunately, that was all I could do to restore the 2010-era web and preserve modern browsing at the same time. Old Reddit still exists too but there's a severe text wrapping bug making certain subreddits impossible to read, but that's it.

Still no way to restore classic MacRumors, or the vBulletin-era Android Forums, and still use them today. The best option I can offer is finding an APK of the older versions (up to 2013) of apps that replace mobile sites (such as older versions of Wikipedia, Google search, or YouTube) and pray they still function today. I eventually tired of all the hacks necessary to keep even the older Samsung Health app functional and moved on to the updated version. It sucks, a lot of the fun and whimsy are missing, but I got too stressed out having to reset, re-edit the hex, modify the APK and pray it doesn't break again in a day or two. Eventually it just becomes too unbearable to cling to the old version, sadly. But I got more important things in life to worry about than keeping an app from 2012 running and being fully functional. I recently had to give up on the old AOSP music app from 2009 because Android 12 did something that kept closing it out while I was listening to music during walks.

On PC, however, I can simply edit the hosts file and route any servers for updates to 127.0.0.1 so apps can't check for updates (like Steam, you infuriating little freak!) but still work otherwise. Unfortunately, no such option seems to exist for Android or iOS. Who would've thought that disabing all Windows updates was as simple as routing every request to 'microsoft.com' to localhost?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Ha ha. I don't need external confirmation to know what I know, but more - when I hear others speak of what I’ve spoken for years, it increases the hope those in charge of fixing things at Apple might be of the same mindset.

Supposedly Jony/Apple supposedly used the short-sighted inputs of others clamoring for "something new and fresh" on their iPhone to justify things like iOS 7 and Yosemite. Supposedly Apple responded to complaints over the 2016-2019 MacBooks that resulted in the 14-16" MBP's. If so, then so might voices of the customer help revert back to abandoned aspects of Apple's interfaces that should not have been tossed in the trash bin along with all the felt, stitching, and woodgrain appliqué.

Most or even all of what I call “awful interface design” has nothing to do with sacrificing accessibility but rather, helping it via more efficient, intuitive interface design.

A lot of it has, or is demonstrated by bad implementations making it worse. Anyway we never see eye to eye on it, but go on; lead the way go design and publish your much better system and see how many people join in. Perhaps many of us will eat humble pie, perhaps you realise that other than a few living in the past nobody is interested. Sure that is much more productive than just talk about it?

 

[Tozovac]

A lot of it has, or is demonstrated by bad implementations making it worse. Anyway we never see eye to eye on it, but go on; lead the way go design and publish your much better system and see how many people join in. Perhaps many of us will eat humble pie, perhaps you realise that other than a few living in the past nobody is interested. Sure that is much more productive than just talk about it?

I respect that we may never see eye to eye about improvements/worsenings of interface design, but I don't need to design and publish anything to show what used to work pretty good, at least according to many who see eye to eye with me.

iOS design language

I've noticed there are certain elements in iOS design language which could be improved. 1) Apple should take a good look on iPhone's basic functionality. There are more and more amazing features with each iOS iteration. However, some basic apps look forgotten. First of all, why do we have...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[cyb3rdud3]

LOL I've got a feeling this thread will last for many years with just more moaning and no actual action or clue on how to improve this, nor be inclusive to everyone in society.

 

[Tozovac]

LOL I've got a feeling this thread will last for many years with just more moaning and no actual action or clue on how to improve this, nor be inclusive to everyone in society.

Lol, what clue or action would you recommend to improve things? Learn programming, get a degree, get hired by Apple, get promoted, then…profit?

And how are things we in this thread desire (less flat, less text-as-buttons, more contrast, more “obviousness”) leaning towards being exclusive lol?

 

[nickdalzell1]

FYI: The "Yosemite is terrible" thread spanned well over 130+ pages before it got locked.

 

[MacBH928]

Someone actually has done some type of open-source design thing, albeit only for the Internet Archive

The Old Net

Welcome to the Old Internet Again!

theoldnet.com

For some weird reason that site that only uses HTML and simple images loads in like 8 seconds for me. YouTube loads faster by like a second. Berkshire hathaway 851ms . I like that site.

 

[nickdalzell1]

Yeah things are super fast on there because modern SSL, javascript and the modern ads weren't a thing yet. You're browsing classic web on broadband plus modern hardware. This was the Internet designed for dial-up so it zooms today!

 

[Tozovac]

Let's talk about GOOD website design. Truly good. Simple, effective, efficient, detailed, non-fad-following.

The best vintage and classic cars for sale online | Bring a Trailer

Bring a Trailer Auctions is the best place to buy and sell vintage and classic vehicles - Porsche, BMW, Land Rover, and more.

bringatrailer.com

Why is it good? Generally, it follows most everything I consider to be needed for GOOD website design, and it commits nothing I've called awful.

1. It's not an all-white-out.
2. It doesn't use light grey font on a white background.
3. The top border is a different color (black) than the body, providing an immediate context and definition of the main controls.
4. No hamburger icon, no gear icon, no ellipsis icon on the desktop site...Some sites are cursed with when they offer 2 or all 3 and you have to guess/explore to figure out what each offers.
5. No icons shortened with "..." ellipses such that you can't understand what the icon stands for.
6. The often-used search box is up top, out in the open, ready for immediate use. None of this silliness where you have to first open the search window with a click followed by another click to prompt the cursor.
7. Very effective, efficient use of sticky headers. I typically dislike sticky headers except when they're used as effectively as they are here, for showing the title of the car being viewed. Very simple, elegant, non-space-wasting.
8. They've stuck with a theme/layout for years THAT WORKS. No trendy updates for attention.
9. Even with the borderless list of cars, the spacing works such that you're not guessing whether a link is for the info below or above it.
10. Borders are used effectively to differentiate similar items in a list, such as with the Latest Bids on the opening page.
11. The site works great on mobile device such that it's not that much different than the desktop site.
12. Effective use of the side-bar areas. It does not repeat same-buttons throughout the same page. No confusion over whether "that button/command" which looks like "this button/command" are the same thing.
13. Photo navigation is wonderfully simple and effective.
14. No ellipses shortening "text as button" strings which can leave you wondering what the heck the "button" stands for.

I'll list more as I think of them. Even though it's purely flat design site, IT JUST WORKS by virtue of its layout and its controls...sticking to what works and not haphazardly changing things for the sake of offering "something fresh."

 

[nickdalzell1]

There's a lot of still-maintained sites relying on old platforms/software. The Golf Cart forum I frequent still has 2008-era UI via vBulletin:

Buggies Gone Wild Golf Cart Forum

Golf Cart Forum for Electric Golf cars, Golf Cart Lift Kits and Custom Golf Cart Parts and Accessories. Featuring forums for Club Car, EZGO and Yamaha Golf cars

buggiesgonewild.com

Contrast that to the 'modern' Straight Talk prepaid wireless site. Just try to figure out where the 'login to your account' link is. I dare you!

Straight Talk Wireless | No Contract Phones and Plans

Find the latest phones and no-contract plans from Straight Talk with unlimited talk, text, and data on the nation's largest, most dependable 4G LTE networks.

www.straighttalk.com

 

[boss.king]

There's a lot of still-maintained sites relying on old platforms/software. The Golf Cart forum I frequent still has 2008-era UI via vBulletin:

Buggies Gone Wild Golf Cart Forum

Golf Cart Forum for Electric Golf cars, Golf Cart Lift Kits and Custom Golf Cart Parts and Accessories. Featuring forums for Club Car, EZGO and Yamaha Golf cars

buggiesgonewild.com

Contrast that to the 'modern' Straight Talk prepaid wireless site. Just try to figure out where the 'login to your account' link is. I dare you!

Straight Talk Wireless | No Contract Phones and Plans

Find the latest phones and no-contract plans from Straight Talk with unlimited talk, text, and data on the nation's largest, most dependable 4G LTE networks.

www.straighttalk.com

Am I missing an inside joke or something? The account button is in the top right, where it is on pretty much every modern website. It took me all of a fraction of a second to find. I just checked on mobile and it's also there.

 

[polyphenol]

There's a lot of still-maintained sites relying on old platforms/software. The Golf Cart forum I frequent still has 2008-era UI via vBulletin:

Buggies Gone Wild Golf Cart Forum

Golf Cart Forum for Electric Golf cars, Golf Cart Lift Kits and Custom Golf Cart Parts and Accessories. Featuring forums for Club Car, EZGO and Yamaha Golf cars

buggiesgonewild.com

Contrast that to the 'modern' Straight Talk prepaid wireless site. Just try to figure out where the 'login to your account' link is. I dare you!

Straight Talk Wireless | No Contract Phones and Plans

Find the latest phones and no-contract plans from Straight Talk with unlimited talk, text, and data on the nation's largest, most dependable 4G LTE networks.

www.straighttalk.com

I couldn't see how to login!

Access denied
Error 16
www.straighttalk.com
2022-04-26 07:16:03 UTC

What happened?
This request was blocked by the security rules
Your IP: 86.176.39.167
Proxy IP: 45.60.80.107 (ID 1047-100)
Incident ID: 47000060035506683-100748181736718732​

They really, really don't want me to have a look!

 

[Nermal]

Same error here.

 

[Michael Scrip]

On the Straight Talk website... is it the little person icon?