Why nMP/Yosemite is part of scary trend for Apple

[MacVidCards]

OK, first thing I need to say is that I think it is an awesome machine FOR WHAT IT IS

It is a great 2nd tier machine, right above iMac

But it is allowing Apple to do what they have always wanted, close the door on upgrading.

Want proof? Go to Yosemite threads. People freaking out about having no Handoff/Continuity support.

And I mean ALOT of people freaking out.

And it is 100% created drama. Many of the machines will be chatting via WiFi that is "n" yet Apple requires "AC" grade equipment. And now they have added machine checks. So even if you have BT 4.0 it gets ruled out because the kext won't load because your mac isn't new enough.

The Mac Pro was the last "wild card" where a machine id could end up with multiple different pieces. Now they can just lock down based on board id, and they are. Briefly I had all the Yosemite features working on my 2009. Handoff was a treat.

But if your 2011 MBA reports wrong WIFi the kext blocks your ability to use these features after DP2. DP4 killed iPhone 4S.

All the love for the iCan overlooks the fact that Apple has enabled a rather serious ability to MAKE SURE you don't run older equipment in newer OS's.

The super silly (and absurd) part is that these features require an "AC" level kext but don't require "AC" support to work.

I wish that I believed there were people who could understand what this really means.

EDIT: Changed Title since mods moved this

 

[pedromcm.pm]

OK, first thing I need to say is that I think it is an awesome machine FOR WHAT IT IS

It is a great 2nd tier machine, right above iMac

But it is allowing Apple to do what they have always wanted, close the door on upgrading.

Want proof? Go to Yosemite threads. People freaking out about having no Handoff/Continuity support.

And I mean ALOT of people freaking out.

And it is 100% created drama. Many of the machines will be chatting via WiFi that is "n" yet Apple requires "AC" grade equipment. And now they have added machine checks. So even if you have BT 4.0 it gets ruled out because the kext won't load because your mac isn't new enough.

The Mac Pro was the last "wild card" where a machine id could end up with multiple different pieces. Now they can just lock down based on board id, and they are. Briefly I had all the Yosemite features working on my 2009. Handoff was a treat.

But if your 2011 MBA reports wrong WIFi the kext blocks your ability to use these features after DP2. DP4 killed iPhone 4S.

All the love for the iCan overlooks the fact that Apple has enabled a rather serious ability to MAKE SURE you don't run older equipment in newer OS's.

The super silly (and absurd) part is that these features require an "AC" level kext but don't require "AC" support to work.

I wish that I believed there were people who could understand what this really means.

What I can understand is that Apple is better and more successful than ever, even on the Mac. Those are the decisions that made the MBAir possible. Those were the decisions that made cars more reliable.

Buying GPUs, exchanging things... Those are a very small percentage of PC gamers. No one else does it anymore, it just isn't worthy it.

So yeah, you need a new job.

 

[MacVidCards]

What I can understand is that Apple is better and more successful than ever, even on the Mac. Those are the decisions that made the MBAir possible. Those were the decisions that made cars more reliable.

Buying GPUs, exchanging things... Those are a very small percentage of PC gamers. No one else does it anymore, it just isn't worthy it.

So yeah, you need a new job.

Thanks for the tip.

You completely 100% didn't get what I'm telling you, but GREAT.

They have an OS that will require 90+% of people to buy a new MAC to use it 100%, not because it really requires it, just because they have placed a hoop in front of you and a sharpened stick behind you.

 

[Wardenski]

What I can understand is that Apple is better and more successful than ever, even on the Mac. Those are the decisions that made the MBAir possible. Those were the decisions that made cars more reliable.

Buying GPUs, exchanging things... Those are a very small percentage of PC gamers. No one else does it anymore, it just isn't worthy it.

So yeah, you need a new job.

Maybe your right that small % of PC users exchange GPUs, but the market is definately there. There are loads of brands of GPUs. Also, it seems that PC gaming is becoming more popular so it would not suprise me if this trend of upgrading GPUs kept going. From a gaming point of view theres little reason to uprgrade the CPU if you have say a decently clocked i7 IMO e.g 3770 etc.

 

[Umbongo]

It worries me. I want to use OS X and I want to use Macs, but I can no longer use their desktop offerings when I can get so much more performance from custom built hardware and a small amount of effort. I'm involved in purchasing choices for companies I'm invested in personally and through relationships and consultancy and many are OS X based.

Apple make it hard for me to keep them on the top of the pile for recommendations and personal use, this is another thing that raises concern and makes me wary of encouraging people to move to the Apple ecosystem.

 

[MacVidCards]

Not just about GPUs

When 2011 MBA were able to run Yosemite features in DP2, they specifically wrote out their id's from DP3.

Easy to do when you know hat parts will be inside.

 

[pedromcm.pm]

Not just about GPUs

When 2011 MBA were able to run Yosemite features in DP2, they specifically wrote out their id's from DP3.

Easy to do when you know hat parts will be inside.

I have a 2011 MBAir. Can you be more specific about that situation?

----------

Maybe your right that small % of PC users exchange GPUs, but the market is definately there. There are loads of brands of GPUs. Also, it seems that PC gaming is becoming more popular so it would not suprise me if this trend of upgrading GPUs kept going. From a gaming point of view theres little reason to uprgrade the CPU if you have say a decently clocked i7 IMO e.g 3770 etc.

That might be true for PC, but for Mac? Who the hell buys a MP for gaming? Please.

 

[Killerbob]

MacVidCards is correct! Today it may be Handoff/Continuity support, and next time it may that you have to have the latest iPhone to sync calender and contacts... No wait, they already did that! Apple has been doing this since the early days of iCloud.

I think it is scary when Apple uses their market dominance to push users into buying the latest and greatest - that's called "tying" and is illegal under Antitrust laws

 

[ssls6]

OK, first thing I need to say is that I think it is an awesome machine FOR WHAT IT IS

It is a great 2nd tier machine, right above iMac

But it is allowing Apple to do what they have always wanted, close the door on upgrading.

Want proof? Go to Yosemite threads. People freaking out about having no Handoff/Continuity support.

And I mean ALOT of people freaking out.

And it is 100% created drama. Many of the machines will be chatting via WiFi that is "n" yet Apple requires "AC" grade equipment. And now they have added machine checks. So even if you have BT 4.0 it gets ruled out because the kext won't load because your mac isn't new enough.

The Mac Pro was the last "wild card" where a machine id could end up with multiple different pieces. Now they can just lock down based on board id, and they are. Briefly I had all the Yosemite features working on my 2009. Handoff was a treat.

But if your 2011 MBA reports wrong WIFi the kext blocks your ability to use these features after DP2. DP4 killed iPhone 4S.

All the love for the iCan overlooks the fact that Apple has enabled a rather serious ability to MAKE SURE you don't run older equipment in newer OS's.

The super silly (and absurd) part is that these features require an "AC" level kext but don't require "AC" support to work.

I wish that I believed there were people who could understand what this really means.

You could be completely right, their decisions were based to force upgrades.

I tend to believe something a little different....I think apple wants to use BT LE to keep from draining your phone battery during all the "checks" and then switch to wifi for data transfer. They buy a combo BT LE / Wifi AC module for their new Mac's so from their point of view when you have one you have the other. Older Macs may have combinations of hardware so it is more efficient to just check the Mac machine ID than probe all the hardware.

I love my Mac Pro 5,1 but it has been a bastard since produced by apple. If I'm to get the new "features" then no doubt I will need to buy hardware and someone will need to find the "checks" and disable them....like trim enabler.

Yosemite is a moving target right now so I'm content to wait. If there is no path for me, then my MP 5,1 will top out at Mavericks (with all it's bugs). The same will be true for my iMac 2009, iMac 2011, MBP 2011.

If I was to comment on a bigger sin (again from my point of view), it is the yearly release of operating systems. They all seem to be half baked before put out to pasture.

 

[lexR]

Want proof? Go to Yosemite threads. People freaking out about having no Handoff/Continuity support.

And I mean ALOT of people freaking out.

Not me i have your card on its way...

 

[koyoot]

OK, first thing I need to say is that I think it is an awesome machine FOR WHAT IT IS

It is a great 2nd tier machine, right above iMac

But it is allowing Apple to do what they have always wanted, close the door on upgrading.

Want proof? Go to Yosemite threads. People freaking out about having no Handoff/Continuity support.

And I mean ALOT of people freaking out.

And it is 100% created drama. Many of the machines will be chatting via WiFi that is "n" yet Apple requires "AC" grade equipment. And now they have added machine checks. So even if you have BT 4.0 it gets ruled out because the kext won't load because your mac isn't new enough.

The Mac Pro was the last "wild card" where a machine id could end up with multiple different pieces. Now they can just lock down based on board id, and they are. Briefly I had all the Yosemite features working on my 2009. Handoff was a treat.

But if your 2011 MBA reports wrong WIFi the kext blocks your ability to use these features after DP2. DP4 killed iPhone 4S.

All the love for the iCan overlooks the fact that Apple has enabled a rather serious ability to MAKE SURE you don't run older equipment in newer OS's.

The super silly (and absurd) part is that these features require an "AC" level kext but don't require "AC" support to work.

I wish that I believed there were people who could understand what this really means.

We will see what you will say when Intel will slam the door for upgrading the GPU, RAM, and SSD.

So far, they are shutting the dGPU(not in ultra high-end desktop).

 

[SuperMatt]

I can't believe Continuity won't work on my Mac Plus! How unfair!

 

[Killerbob]

And it is 100% created drama. Many of the machines will be chatting via WiFi that is "n" yet Apple requires "AC" grade equipment. And now they have added machine checks. So even if you have BT 4.0 it gets ruled out because the kext won't load because your mac isn't new enough.

Are you sure they will be requiring WiFi AC for Handoff/Continuity support? I find that strange as none of Apples current phones have AC...

 

[paulrbeers]

I guess I'm completely confused by this whole thread....

1. We are talking about an OS that hasn't even been released yet.
2. We are talking about a subset of the features of an OS that hasn't been released yet
3. We are talking about an OS that will run on machines that are upwards of 6 years old (even though it might have a reduced subset of features due to hardware compatibility)
4. Further I'm not sure what this has to do with the Mac Pro? You pointed to the 2011 MBA (a 3 year old machine at this point) and made no reference to why it was a problem for the nMP?
5. Apple has been moving their machines from upgradability for the last few years. The cMP was pretty much the last of the upgradable machines, so why the nMP is a Scary trend when the nMP was pretty much the final computer to move to the less upgradable model Apple has been implementing.

You just can't make a point on these forums without trying to bash the nMP since your business relies on cMP's can you? There is very little connection between your point and the nMP and yet you had to bring it in.... This really is more of an OSX Yosemite discussion and NOT a Mac Pro discussion.

 

[TyPod]

I guess I'm completely confused by this whole thread....

1. We are talking about an OS that hasn't even been released yet.
2. We are talking about a subset of the features of an OS that hasn't been released yet
3. We are talking about an OS that will run on machines that are upwards of 6 years old (even though it might have a reduced subset of features due to hardware compatibility)
4. Further I'm not sure what this has to do with the Mac Pro? You pointed to the 2011 MBA (a 3 year old machine at this point) and made no reference to why it was a problem for the nMP?
5. Apple has been moving their machines from upgradability for the last few years. The cMP was pretty much the last of the upgradable machines, so why the nMP is a Scary trend when the nMP was pretty much the final computer to move to the less upgradable model Apple has been implementing.

You just can't make a point on these forums without trying to bash the nMP since your business relies on cMP's can you? There is very little connection between your point and the nMP and yet you had to bring it in.... This really is more of an OSX Yosemite discussion and NOT a Mac Pro discussion.

Couldn't agree more. Sounds more like complaints about Yosemite than the nMP.

 

[paulrbeers]

Are you sure they will be requiring WiFi AC for Handoff/Continuity support? I find that strange as none of Apples current phones have AC...

I don't think MacVidCards has his facts straight..... At this point the only iOS devices that WOULD work with Continuity would be the unreleased 2014 iOS devices (since they are rumored to have AC).....

 

[bennibeef]

Are you sure they will be requiring WiFi AC for Handoff/Continuity support? I find that strange as none of Apples current phones have AC...

I also dont get why the AC requirement - havent read about that anywhere.

But you can put that stuff on hate for Apple but put it into perspective.

Yes they are cutting features for old equipment. Yes upgrading is not what it was in 2006 where it even made more sense.

Cutting features is a thing. iPhone 4s not getting anything which needs Bluetooth 4? Yes thats a thing, last year the same it didnt get airdrop. But there is a line to cut no one can argue about that. Somewhere are the flagship features that need to be flagship features. Where are we going? Everyone doesnt want to pay **** for anything and is continuly bitching about not getting some feature. It doesnt make the device unusable without it and too bad you dont get something new all the time with your old device.

In the macbook side of things - you cant give the real argument your classic macbook pro doesnt get the bluetooth stuff either because it has no bluetooth 4 but you are putting in a newer wifi/bluetooth card. You are not supposed to do that if we are honest and it voids everything too.

The whole thing with bluetooth features is - they could make them work on older bluetooth I think - some things may not work like proximity things - but it drains the battery fast. bluetooth was never battery friendly and those new features are talking with each other a lot of time which would drain it fast.


And because everyone loves car analogies:

Because there is a new BMW wheel with some awesome feature like touchscreen in the middle and you cant put it in your 2011 BMW because it wont fit in the connections and there are not electical connections to even use a touchscreen there - is it so bad you dont have this all new cool touchscreen in the wheel your BMW cant drive you anywhere very good?

 

[paulrbeers]

The super silly (and absurd) part is that these features require an "AC" level kext but don't require "AC" support to work.

I wish that I believed there were people who could understand what this really means.

The 2012 MBA's and MBP's have no issues and they have N only cards. Only the 2013's and newer have AC. Your point has been invalidated.

 

[pickaxe]

When 2011 MBA were able to run Yosemite features in DP2, they specifically wrote out their id's from DP3.

Link? If this turns out to be true it needs to more exposure.

 

[Michael Goff]

I am surprised that a guy who sells Video Cards to Mac users would complain about a system that makes it difficult to upgrade at all. >_>

 

[freedevil]

OP's fears are true and relevant. Some of the information is obviously not accurate but the main gist is relevant. Apple does force users to buy new hardware to get new features. My 2011 iMac is already outdated and I needed to buy it but the 2012 was delayed. Prior to that I had a 5 year old iMac and it was slow and terrible. It wasn't even on the list to run Mavericks and thats how Apple keeps forcing you to buy.

in b4, you don't need to upgrade.

 

[snouter]

I think it is scary when Apple uses their market dominance to push users into buying the latest and greatest - that's called "tying" and is illegal under Antitrust laws

Except, that is the very thing that allowed the Mac to survive at all.

I'm talking about the OS9/OSX transition, the very willingness to go a whole new road allowed the mac to flourish when Windows had to spend a decade, or longer, dealing with their legacy.

Now does Apple play games with their lineup? Surely they do, but I don't think you can go as far as to claim antitrust violations.

The BMW M3 went from 188 to 240 to 333 to 400hp. The 188 and 240hp models are to this day a thrilling drive, but... some people can't be seen pulling up the steak house in a 10 year old car. That's on them.

Macs have far superior resale compared to most PCs. For a while, I would buy a Mac, skip the apple care, use it for 18-24 months, sell it and buy a new one. I did the math, and I do use my Macs to make money, but, the "monthly" cost was very reasonable.

I could buy or build a cheaper PC use it for 2 years, sell it for what, $75 on Craigslist, then buy another one? Do the math. The value in something that depreciates and obsoletes as fast as computers is in the utility you derive from them.

 

[clickclickw00t]

Spoke to my guy at Apple, he says Apple plans on releasing Continuity support for all OSX and Windows based systems. He would not comment on Linux.

but srsly though....
1) Wifi AC will not be a requirement. The current iPhones don't even have it.
2) Bluetooth LE will be a requirement. I've done a lot of research, and even though I think it is possible to make Continuity work over just wifi, it would be a lot more efficient to do BTLE than wifi to communicate signals between devices.

Here's what that means for people like me who have a 2011MBP, and iPhone 5, an iPad mini, and a hackintosh Pro.

1) My 2011 MBP, in which I installed a 2012 BTLE card, may or may not work. If Apple hard-codes a board search to determine if my laptop is eligible, I'll be SOL. If someone makes a hack to get around it, bonus points from me. I don't want to leave my 2011 MBP ever - it has a matte screen, two hard drives, and is awesome.

2) I expect my iPad and iPhone 5 to work without any issues with Continuity.

3) I have a USB BT 4.0 card installed on my hack pro running a magic mouse, trackpad, and keyboard. Hopefully I can get it to work with handoff.

 

[Wardenski]

That might be true for PC, but for Mac? Who the hell buys a MP for gaming? Please.

Well, sorry sir but I didn't bring up PC gamers .

Regarding Macs, as long as OpenCL/CUDA are around and people are still using old Mac Pros then MacVidCards should have a market even if its small.

 

[paulrbeers]

OP's fears are true and relevant. Some of the information is obviously not accurate but the main gist is relevant. Apple does force users to buy new hardware to get new features. My 2011 iMac is already outdated and I needed to buy it but the 2012 was delayed. Prior to that I had a 5 year old iMac and it was slow and terrible. It wasn't even on the list to run Mavericks and thats how Apple keeps forcing you to buy.

in b4, you don't need to upgrade.

Apple doesn't charge for OS upgrades. The only way for them to make money is planned obsolescence. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just what it is. However, I do have to give Apple props for at least somewhat supporting older Macs back to 2009 (even some 2008's). My 2009 Macbook Pro can still run Yosemite without a hack. Nice.