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Not really,

As soon as you upgrade both for a 512 SSD, the price is very similar.

Wait... You're saying that if I pay $300 for a drive that costs $100, that it somehow makes the $900 for a $225 video card acceptable?

Is that seriously the argument you're putting out there, or am I misinterpreting?

1800b+300ssd=$2100... + nonexistent 450 = $2550
2300t+100ssd=$2400... + 450 = $2850
 
Wait... You're saying that if I pay $300 for a drive that costs $100, that it somehow makes the $900 for a $225 video card acceptable?

Is that seriously the argument you're putting out there, or am I misinterpreting?

1800b+300ssd=$2100... + nonexistent 450 = $2550
2300t+100ssd=$2400... + 450 = $2850

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's acceptable, or that it isn't. Things are acceptable based on perception and how much people is willing to pay. If so much people pay for certain things I guess it is because they find it acceptable (me included)
 
Wait... You're saying that if I pay $300 for a drive that costs $100, that it somehow makes the $900 for a $225 video card acceptable?

Is that seriously the argument you're putting out there, or am I misinterpreting?

1800b+300ssd=$2100... + nonexistent 450 = $2550
2300t+100ssd=$2400... + 450 = $2850
The extra cost all goes into the "free" 5k panel Apple foundation ;)
 
This guy is comparing the iMac i9/Vega 48 with the iMac Pro (8 core, Vega 56). He basically says that other than for video editing, he doesn't see a reason to go for the Vega 48 (start at 11:44 for this part), gaming aside.


What I find interesting is: during the rendering tests, the Vega seems to get awfully hot (e.g. at 9:00 it's 170 degrees, at 9:52 it's about 130 degrees). Is that normal for a GPU? And will the 580X run even hotter than that?

Another interesting thing is that at 9:00 the fans are around 2000RPM, at 9:52 around 1200RPM, so the fans really seem to run slower in the 2019 iMac (than the 2017 i7).
 
What I find interesting is: during the rendering tests, the Vega seems to get awfully hot (e.g. at 9:00 it's 170 degrees, at 9:52 it's about 130 degrees). Is that normal for a GPU? And will the 580X run even hotter than that?


The 4GB M295X in the original 2014 retina iMac hit 200 degrees and a little more routinely when you pushed it which is the reason I didn't order it. 170 degrees is not a big deal.
 
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What I find interesting is: during the rendering tests, the Vega seems to get awfully hot (e.g. at 9:00 it's 170 degrees, at 9:52 it's about 130 degrees). Is that normal for a GPU?
Those ~170 temperatures in Max Yuryev’s review must be in degrees Fahrenheit.

I don’t know about video rendering, but high GPU temperatures are certainly normal for graphically-demanding 3D gaming.

When running a GPU benchmark like Unigine Heaven or Valley, the AMD Radeon R9 M395X in my Late 2015 iMac approaches (but never exceeds) 100°C (212°F). Based on what I’ve read, that’s safe and perfectly normal for modern GPUs. (Those temperatures do spin up the fans rather audibly.)

And will the 580X run even hotter than that?
The HBM2 RAM in the Vega 48 is supposed to generate substantially less heat than the GDDR5 RAM in the 580X. But whether this means that the Vega 48 as a whole runs cooler, or simply that because its RAM runs cooler, the Vega 48 is clocked higher to reach the limits of the thermal budget allocated to it, I’m not sure we know yet.

To answer that question, we’d want to see sustained temperatures from GPU benchmarks of a 580X iMac and a Vega 48 iMac, with the same CPUs, the same RAM, and the same internal storage, running side by side (i.e. where the ambient temperature is the same).
 
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Does anyone know what the TDP (power consumption) of the Vega 48 is?

I know the Radeon Vega 20 is 100w, the 580x is150w and the Vega 56 is 210w. I'd guess the Vega 48 is probably around 130w since it's been reported that the Vega 48 runs cooler than the 580x. Has it been published anywhere yet?
 
Does anyone know what the TDP (power consumption) of the Vega 48 is?

I know the Radeon Vega 20 is 100w, the 580x is150w and the Vega 56 is 210w. I'd guess the Vega 48 is probably around 130w since it's been reported that the Vega 48 runs cooler than the 580x. Has it been published anywhere yet?
If the Vega 48’s TDP is published anywhere, TechPowerUp are unaware of it. They report the Vega 48’s TDP as “unknown.”
 
The thing I don't know is if the GPU-accelerated tasks performed by software such as Capture One run on the GPU only or if the GPU is simply used for an additional "thread" (I hope this makes sense). In the former case, having a 30% faster GPU would certainly have a significant impact, in the latter, not so much.


Thanks all for your contributions to this topic, it's really interesting and helpful for me! Though I still sway between getting the 580X or the Vega at least 5 times per day... :rolleyes:

not sure if you saw this thread
https://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=27609

from testing a bunch for C1 more in addition to and there has to be some balance of CPU and GPU

their is a newer mac mini in that with a eGPU setup that uses the 580 in it

I have a 7820x in that thread
also have a mac 5,1 and 3,1 and we need to replace these I am on the fence as I have this PC build for C1 capture mainly but wife and I need new macs she is a full time graphic designer so mostly illustrator and indesign and PS
I will rely on my PC ( which I hate for the file explorer and horrid color management) but for C1 the thing is insane fast
on image to image and manipulation which is where we need the power and speed more then export

for wife I kinda want to go with iMac with the i9 and 580x my theory IF something needs the gpu power I can do much better I think with a external cause the differences in performance for her wont be worth the money I feel
or the mac mini i7 32 gig ram ? knowing it will be a touch slower but way less $$

so back to C1 another thread somewhere on that forum had other tests and some i9 setups with better gpus did really fast
so I would say for C1 the vega would be quicker with the i9 chip
BUT if you put a higher end card in a eGPU I am going to guess that balance of the i9 would make it way faster and I would rather take that $400 upgrade and spend say $900 or so and get way better results and leverage the i9 even more
all comes down to simplicity and $$ :)
eGPU is unknown but they do work fine with C1 as that thread shows and higher end dual cards can be really fast almost wonder about trying out dual eGPU at some point if I can borrow them for fun

without actual testing though its all unsure :) hahahahahahaha
 
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TB3 has some performance loss compared to a GPU connected directly to the system board. Some say about a 20% loss on average give or take depending on the application. The Vega 56 is about 20% faster than the Vega 48 so really you pay more for the eGPU for not really a big speed advanatge. Some applications/games may run a bit faster with the Vega 56 eGPU and other applications may actually run slower than the Vega 48 due to the TB3 narrow bandwidth. Its like sticking a graphics card in a computer with a 4x slot instead of a 16x slot. Believe it or not most GPUs still perform very well even in a 4x slot but there is some performance loss. If there wasn't then all motherboards would just have 4x slots.

As others have said sometimes a eGPU doesn't work as well with an internal display which the iMac has.

The iMac total uses 262 watts of power. Thats for the CPU, 5k monitor, GPU, storage and everything else. A Vega 56 eGPU enclosure uses 550 watts on its own. Getting the roughly same level of performance for a fraction of the power usage and noise is worth it to some people.

Sometimes people don't want to fart around with extra stuff. While eGPU is rather easy its still an extra thing to handle.

A eGPU also tends to require short TB3 cables which means they sit right on the desk next to the computer. They can be a lot louder than the Vega 48 inside of the iMac. When using an all-in-one inches from a persons face/ears its important to keep the noise down.

eGPU eats up the only TB3 controller on the iMac leaving only the USB3 controller for storage bandwidth up to 600 MB/S. Thats not a lot of storage bandwidth. Having the Vega 48 means the TB3 is wide open to use for storage and other devices. This is very important to video editors.

Some applications can use more than one GPU. DaVinci Resolve can use the Vega 48 plus a Vega 56 eGPU for added performance.
 
Does anyone know what the TDP (power consumption) of the Vega 48 is?

I know the Radeon Vega 20 is 100w, the 580x is150w and the Vega 56 is 210w. I'd guess the Vega 48 is probably around 130w since it's been reported that the Vega 48 runs cooler than the 580x. Has it been published anywhere yet?

That'd be an interesting thing to know. On the Net, I only find reviews of the dedicated graphics cards like the RX 580 and the Vega 56/64. Looks like the Vega draws significantly more power than the RX 580 (e.g. in the Anandtech review). I wonder how that translates to the GPUs in the iMac line-it seems to be general consensus that the Vega 48 will run cooler than the 580(X), meaning it should draw less power, but I can't find a single review that supports this with actual numbers.
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not sure if you saw this thread
https://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=27609

for wife I kinda want to go with iMac with the i9 and 580x my theory IF something needs the gpu power I can do much better I think with a external cause the differences in performance for her wont be worth the money I feel
or the mac mini i7 32 gig ram ? knowing it will be a touch slower but way less $$

I hadn't seen that thread, thanks for pointing it out! I'll perform that test on my 2011 MBP just for the fun of it :D

I'm not planning on going the eGPU route, so either I'll max out my new iMac now with the Vega 48 or decide the 580X will be good enough for my targeted usage period of ca. 8 years. Too bad there are no conclusive numbers available that make that decision easier, like "x% performance gain in applications, y% less power consumption/heat for z% more money". ;)
 
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I keep my fingers crossed for this...

There are similarities but also differences to the PPC/Intel switch. The similarity being that in 2003-05 IBM/Motorola had problems getting more performance into the PPC line, they had massive problems with power consumption, which affected especially mobile CPUs. The Core Duo processors seemed like a "godsend" back then: higher performance per Watt and the first dual core processors in notebooks. Today, it's a bit different: Although Apple's own processors seem to gain more processing speed from generation to generation, Intel already has the roadmap to faster processors (10nm), they only need more time for development. Which is ok with me-I don't need my Mac's CPU to be surpassed by the next model every two years, and I'd like Hardware and Software quality over newer-faster-shinier every year. I don't think the switch to ARM processors will gain performance as drastically as the Core Duo CPUs back in '06. Of course, I'm no expert on this. ;)

The other difference is: back then, Mac users gained a big thing with the Intel switch (besides dual core CPUs)-running Windows in virtual machines, which still today is a big plus for professionals who work with Mac software mostly but need to run some Windows-only apps from time to time, and especially gamers who want to play under Bootcamp. With the move to ARM, I think it's reasonable to suspect we will lose this option. This could bite deeply into Apple's Mac sales... I guess we'll see in the next months, maybe the next 1-2 years, if and how Apple will address this issue.

You're right, I think that Apple is in far less of a desperate situation. Macs are a very small part of their revenue now and as you said the performance on Intel isn't bad. I think Apple may just want to consolidate the Mac and iOS hardware more to simplify their teams and development. The alternative is they decide that making Macs isn't a good business any more. That would obviously suck. So this may be a way for them to keep desktops going while continuing to slowly merge platforms over a very long time.

Look at iOS in 2007 and OS X in 2007. Now look at them both today. They definitely feel more cohesive. iOS is almost macOS Lite in terms of capability (though more clumsy and time consuming), and macOS looks more like iOS and has integrated with the devices through continuity, new apps, notification center, Siri, launchpad mimicking a home screen, etc. But they still have a long way to go. I think Apple wants to continue to integrate them and I think Apple thinks it can leverage its huge developer base on iOS for macOS if they unified the code and hardware and grow their Mac business to start competing more against Windows PCs. Tim is looking for growth anywhere he can, and honestly I think that's the main reason they haven't abandoned the Mac. That and they kinda need it to do all of their work, lol.

I think the main reason people use Bootcamp is because they can't get the app they need on the Mac. Doing this could change that if the developer support is there at even 10% that of iOS, though it won't happen overnight, so perhaps they start with non-pro portables to get developers to start making apps and to signal to bigger professional developers to start porting their apps over to this new system so that it will be ready for new ARM pro hardware in a year or two. I know for someone like me I only used bootcamp for a couple years after switching to Mac in 2008 but that was only until I found other software that fit my needs and learned it. Now I've installed it on my new machine for the first time since then (aside from using VirtualBox for testing websites), but I'm only using it for gaming now. I doubt Apple would lose a bunch of money from Mac hardware PC gamers, and with their new Apple Arcade initiative and the prospect of ARM hardware on the Mac, they could use that to bring a lot more games to the Mac with the incentive to developers being that it would also cast a wide net being available for iOS as well with minimal work to ship the Mac version bundled into a universal binary (or whatever it might be called).

As for performance, I've been wondering myself if Apple is just going to run up against Moore's law for mobile CPUs soon. They can only push things so far. They might leapfrog Intel for 5 years but then they'll need to move on to graphene or quantum or who knows what other exotic thing. I think it's likely they will blow past them, but will it be worth it in the long-run? They better be thinking longer term because it's going to take some big breakthroughs for silicon to be long for this world.
 
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TB3 has some performance loss compared to a GPU connected directly to the system board. Some say about a 20% loss on average give or take depending on the application. The Vega 56 is about 20% faster than the Vega 48 so really you pay more for the eGPU for not really a big speed advanatge. Some applications/games may run a bit faster with the Vega 56 eGPU and other applications may actually run slower than the Vega 48 due to the TB3 narrow bandwidth. Its like sticking a graphics card in a computer with a 4x slot instead of a 16x slot. Believe it or not most GPUs still perform very well even in a 4x slot but there is some performance loss. If there wasn't then all motherboards would just have 4x slots.

As others have said sometimes a eGPU doesn't work as well with an internal display which the iMac has.

The iMac total uses 262 watts of power. Thats for the CPU, 5k monitor, GPU, storage and everything else. A Vega 56 eGPU enclosure uses 550 watts on its own. Getting the roughly same level of performance for a fraction of the power usage and noise is worth it to some people.

Sometimes people don't want to fart around with extra stuff. While eGPU is rather easy its still an extra thing to handle.

A eGPU also tends to require short TB3 cables which means they sit right on the desk next to the computer. They can be a lot louder than the Vega 48 inside of the iMac. When using an all-in-one inches from a persons face/ears its important to keep the noise down.

eGPU eats up the only TB3 controller on the iMac leaving only the USB3 controller for storage bandwidth up to 600 MB/S. Thats not a lot of storage bandwidth. Having the Vega 48 means the TB3 is wide open to use for storage and other devices. This is very important to video editors.

Some applications can use more than one GPU. DaVinci Resolve can use the Vega 48 plus a Vega 56 eGPU for added performance.

Well, not to pick nits, but most 100-, 200-, 300-Series Intel motherboards are equipped with two x16 (x8 if both slots are used) and the rest of the PCIe slots are x4...ironic, eh? Would be nice if Intel integrated the Thundebolt 3 controller on the CPU package while letting the GPU to access all x16 lanes on an LGA-1151 CPU, but I dare to dream!
 
Well, not to pick nits, but most 100-, 200-, 300-Series Intel motherboards are equipped with two x16 (x8 if both slots are used) and the rest of the PCIe slots are x4...ironic, eh? Would be nice if Intel integrated the Thundebolt 3 controller on the CPU package while letting the GPU to access all x16 lanes on an LGA-1151 CPU, but I dare to dream!

I'm sure TB will continue to get better. The fact that we can now have 4x PCI-express external with any type of computer is pretty darn amazing. There was a time when the best we could ever get externally was USB2 and FW400 for external hardware like audio devices.

We are no longer stuck using graphic cards and expansion cards with desktop towers and thats a really cool thing.
 
My 2019 iMac with Vega 48 arrived yesterday. I had hoped to post some benchmarks here, but Unigine Heaven 4.0 and Valley 1.0 (the current versions) are both crashing immediately upon launch, upon both my iMacs (2015 and 2019) running macOS 10.14.4.

If you think you might be able to help diagnose this crash, please see my message here.

Thanks!
 
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I'm sure TB will continue to get better. The fact that we can now have 4x PCI-express external with any type of computer is pretty darn amazing. There was a time when the best we could ever get externally was USB2 and FW400 for external hardware like audio devices.

We are no longer stuck using graphic cards and expansion cards with desktop towers and thats a really cool thing.

I do not disagree that having the ability to add an eGPU (or any other type of TB3 peripheral) is amazing, it is...my beef, complaint, whatever it should be called, that if you want to have a GPU run at the full x16 on your iMac, or any PC for that matter, you are then stuck with running everything else through the PCH and ultimately, Intel's DMI 3.0 bus to the CPU. Intel has steadily increased the number of PCIe lanes that the PCH has, which allows for a lot more flexibility in configuration than was available just a few years ago. Unfortunately, it means to get well balanced performance from your iMac or Windows PC, you really need to pick and choose carefully what else you add to your system. DIYers crow about how limited Macs are when it comes to expansion, when the reality is that it is a conscious choice by Apple's engineers to restrict themselves on how many devices they have hanging off of the PCH. Apple could probably add another Titan Ridge controller to the iMac 5K, but throughput would be negatively affected as the PCIe storage (x4 3.0), the two existing Thunderbolt 3 ports, USB 3.0, and Gigabit Ethernet all go through the DMI 3.0 bus right now. I suppose another PCIe slot for storage would also be possible, but then things would get really bottlenecked.

Intel has previously committed to integrating the Thunderbolt 3 controller on the CPU die itself, not just on the package. However, I believe that the current LGA 1151 socket is at its limit now, which means a new socket for motherboards and with Intel's back against the wall on 14nm production and 10nm volume production hitting the holiday 2019 deadline, I do not think we will see Intel make any real progress with what they promised back in 2017.

On top of that, PCIe 4.0 is already a real (short-lived) product, with PCIe 5.0 right around the corner (the ratified 1.0 spec should be released this year), and Intel has yet to say boo about their plans for either standard. Personally, if Apple is going to make the leap to in-house ARM CPUs for the Mac, I hope they move straight to PCIe 5.0 for the interconnect, although PCIe 3.0 limitations are still going to factor in there somewhere as Thunderbolt 3 will be part of these new Macs for sure. Perhaps a faster version of Thunderbolt running over PCI 4/5 is already running in the labs in Cupertino.

I lived through USB 2 and FW800, which were both frustrating in their own way, so I am eager to see Apple continue pushing forward with even faster I/O. I find it quite amusing when people make excuses that USB 3.0 is fast enough for them and demand their USB-A ports back, because TB3/USB-C means they have to buy an $8 cable...yet they lambaste Apple for not giving them the fastest GPUs, as if is it the absolute most important part of the computer and everything else is an afterthought. It seems these users have endless piles of cash for GPUs, but nothing to spare for cables, which is pretty strange to my way of thinking.
 
Quick question for those with the Vega 48. Where did you get the drivers for it for Bootcamps W10?

I have just install W10, gone to the graphics settings menu, but bootcamp is not recognising it a a vega 48.

What whould I do.

Cheers
 
Quick question for those with the Vega 48. Where did you get the drivers for it for Bootcamps W10?

I have just install W10, gone to the graphics settings menu, but bootcamp is not recognising it a a vega 48.

What whould I do.

Cheers
Kaintxu, that’s odd. Boot Camp Assistant installed the drivers for my Vega 48 as part of its Windows 10 installation process.

There are two things you could try to insure your graphics drivers are installed correctly:
  1. a) In macOS, run Boot Camp Assistant,
    b) From the Action menu, select "Download Windows Support Software",
    c) Save the resulting "WindowsSupport" folder to a Windows-readable drive (such as an ExFAT-formatted USB flash drive), and
    d) Boot into Windows 10, and run Setup.exe in the BootCamp folder in the WindowsSupport folder, or
  2. a) Go to AMD Boot Camp Graphics Drivers,
    b) Download the driver for the iMac (Retina, 2019),
    c) In Windows, extract the zip archive you just downloaded,
    d) Run Setup.exe in the folder you just extracted.
Method 1 will reinstall all the Boot Camp drivers (not just the graphics drivers), but either way, you will get exactly the same graphics drivers, so there's no point to doing both 1 and 2.
 
Kaintxu, that’s odd. Boot Camp Assistant installed the drivers for my Vega 48 as part of its Windows 10 installation process.

There are two things you could try to insure your graphics drivers are installed correctly:
  1. a) In macOS, run Boot Camp Assistant,
    b) From the Action menu, select "Download Windows Support Software",
    c) Save the resulting "WindowsSupport" folder to a Windows-readable drive (such as an ExFAT-formatted USB flash drive), and
    d) Boot into Windows 10, and run Setup.exe in the BootCamp folder in the WindowsSupport folder, or
  2. a) Go to AMD Boot Camp Graphics Drivers,
    b) Download the driver for the iMac (Retina, 2019),
    c) In Windows, extract the zip archive you just downloaded,
    d) Run Setup.exe in the folder you just extracted.
Method 1 will reinstall all the Boot Camp drivers (not just the graphics drivers), but either way, you will get exactly the same graphics drivers, so there's no point to doing both 1 and 2.

Thanks Blimp,

For some reason the first time I installed bootcamp the the Bootcamp support drivers did option did not pop up right after the W10 installed, or I missed it by mistake. I went back into Mac OS and redid a fresh instalation and there it was. I can now finally see the Vega 48 display, use my Magic Mouse 2 scrolling and everything seems just fine.

I do have a doubt though. On your tips you do tell me to open the Boot Camp Assistant in MacOS, the thing is when I do that, I do not get any menu with options such as Download Windows Support Software or anything. Just the option to format the W10 partition back into the main MacOS partition and that's about it.

I remember in my old iMac 2011 there were such options, but not now. Could you please let me know how you managed to get that option?

Also, the AMD Boot Camp Graphics site you mention, I have seen the most up to date driver are from 01/05/2019 (UK date style so 1st of May), are the bootcamp assistant drivers as up to date since the iMac launched earlier in April. Should I do an update of them?

Cheers
 
I do have a doubt though. On your tips you do tell me to open the Boot Camp Assistant in MacOS, the thing is when I do that, I do not get any menu with options such as Download Windows Support Software or anything. Just the option to format the W10 partition back into the main MacOS partition and that's about it.

I remember in my old iMac 2011 there were such options, but not now. Could you please let me know how you managed to get that option?
Go to the menu bar and open the “Action” menu.

Also, the AMD Boot Camp Graphics site you mention, I have seen the most up to date driver are from 01/05/2019 (UK date style so 1st of May), are the bootcamp assistant drivers as up to date since the iMac launched earlier in April. Should I do an update of them?
No; as I mentioned, the drivers are currently exactly the same.

(If you use a folder comparison utility to compare the contents of AMD’s v18.50 Boot Camp Unified Driver for Windows 10 for the 2019 iMac with the contents of the AMD Graphics folder in the WindowsSupport archive that Boot Camp Assistant downloads on the 2019 iMac, you will see that all of the files are identical, bit for bit.)
 
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Go to the menu bar and open the “Action” menu.


No; as I mentioned, the drivers are currently exactly the same.

(If you use a folder comparison utility to compare the contents of AMD’s v18.50 Boot Camp Unified Driver for Windows 10 for the 2019 iMac with the contents of the AMD Graphics folder in the WindowsSupport archive that Boot Camp Assistant downloads on the 2019 iMac, you will see that all of the files are identical, bit for bit.)

I’m getting my first IMac for extensive photo, music production , and some video editing with colour correction with the usual office apps. Is the Vega 48 from the 580 worth it or should I upgrade the 9600k to the 9900k
 
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