Why the heck does America still use outdated measurement and date units?

[jlc1978]

And used everywhere in the world except for the USA yet again.

One unsubstantiated explanation is the Dutch paper makers made sheets in 17"" molds and hen cutting them it result in an 8.5 width, and thus a standard width was born. When Europe adopted the German standard, in the 20th century, the US, along with a few other countries, did not.

Who in America is having problems with our weights and measures?

They don't. Most Americans can't spell metric, let alone use it; unless it's when buying a 2 liter bottle of Coke. The Coke system of liquid measures is actually quite useful. 3 12 oz cans are about 1 liter; 1.5 cans 500 milliliters, etc.; making it easy to use either system by just figuring out how many Coke cans of liquid you need.

Beer cans work as well but if you need a gallon of liquid that's a lot of cans to drink...

 

[Macky-Mac]

They don't. Most Americans can't spell metric, let alone use it; unless it's when buying a 2 liter bottle of Coke. The Coke system of liquid measures is actually quite useful. 3 12 oz cans are about 1 liter; 1.5 cans 500 milliliters, etc.; making it easy to use either system by just figuring out how many Coke cans of liquid you need.

Beer cans work as well but if you need a gallon of liquid that's a lot of cans to drink...

alternatively you could just look at the can to find either the imperial or the metric measurements since both are printed on the can...this is true for all sorts of packaging these days in the US.

I suspect that most Americans aren't even aware of the dual measurements listed since they're buying things based on package types; a can, a 6 pack, a bottle, a box, a bag, a carton.....small, regular, large, extra large, etc

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

One unsubstantiated explanation is the Dutch paper makers made sheets in 17"" molds and hen cutting them it result in an 8.5 width, and thus a standard width was born. When Europe adopted the German standard, in the 20th century, the US, along with a few other countries, did not.



They don't. Most Americans can't spell metric, let alone use it; unless it's when buying a 2 liter bottle of Coke. The Coke system of liquid measures is actually quite useful. 3 12 oz cans are about 1 liter; 1.5 cans 500 milliliters, etc.; making it easy to use either system by just figuring out how many Coke cans of liquid you need.

Beer cans work as well but if you need a gallon of liquid that's a lot of cans to drink...

But... I don't drink either Coke or Beer.

Our cows are metric, so they produce milk in litres (1, 2, or 3 depending on family size).

 

[GrayFlannel]

They don't. Most Americans can't spell metric, let alone use it; unless it's when buying a 2 liter bottle of Coke.

Except for grams and kilos of coke.

 

[IvyKing]

One unsubstantiated explanation is the Dutch paper makers made sheets in 17"" molds and hen cutting them it result in an 8.5 width, and thus a standard width was born. When Europe adopted the German standard, in the 20th century, the US, along with a few other countries, did not.

Back in the Harding/Coolidge administration, the Department of Commerce was making a big push for standardization, such as standardized threads for screws and pipes, standardized pipe sizes, lumber and paper. This was also the time that the inch was redefined from being 1/39.37 of a meter to 25.4mm.

A U.S. changeover to metric would still involve continued manufacture of products in imperial units to repair buildings and equipment, hence the decision to keep things simple and stick with the customary units. A worldwide example is standard gauge track for railroads - the optimum gauge is probably wider than the current 56.5"/1435mm, but the benefits of going to a wider gauge are far outweighed by the costs. Japan had the luxury of choosing any gauge they wanted with the New Tokkaido Line in the early 1960's but went with standard gauge for commonality. The traditional gauge in Japan was 42".

Another thing maintaining the use of "imperial" units in the U.S has been the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, which provided for the surveying of U.S. territory into townships and sections. "Sections" were 1 square statute mile which was 80 chains on a side, where a chain is 66 feet long (derived from four rods of 16.5 feet). An acre is 10 square chains (historically 2 by 5 chains), so a section contains 640 acres. The Homestead Act circa 1860 provided for settlers being able to homestead on a quarter section, i.e. 160 acres. As a result there are millions of legal documents using feet as a unit of measure, to which almost no-one wants to go through the pain of changing the units in said documents.

 

[jlc1978]

Back in the Harding/Coolidge administration, the Department of Commerce was making a big push for standardization, such as standardized threads for screws and pipes, standardized pipe sizes, lumber and paper. This was also the time that the inch was redefined from being 1/39.37 of a meter to 25.4mm.

That's the thing standards, they often result form some unofficial standard and when adoption becomes widespread they become official; simply because the cost to change is too high. Software has similar issues.

Reagan, IIRC, made 8.5x11 the official government standard.

A U.S. changeover to metric would still involve continued manufacture of products in imperial units to repair buildings and equipment, hence the decision to keep things simple and stick with the customary units. A worldwide example is standard gauge track for railroads - the optimum gauge is probably wider than the current 56.5"/1435mm, but the benefits of going to a wider gauge are far outweighed by the costs.

Spain has (had?) a different track width and cross border travel was more difficult as a result. One advantage the US had was it expanded across the land so brought its standards with it; unlike Europe where their were many separate countries industrializing.

As a result there are millions of legal documents using feet as a unit of measure, to which almost no-one wants to go through the pain of changing the units in said documents.

A similar issue existed in the aviation industry where much of the early research was in imperial, not SI units; so the data is simply not available in metric without a lot of conversion so it was simply easier to use the existing data. It was not uncommon when I was studying to do airfoil analysis in imperial and structural work in SI.

 

[timber]

Spain has a different gauge (it's the same we use as we are neighbors, 1668mm). Originally we used 1435mm but ended using the Spanish gauge for interoperability.

It's a match between 6 Castilian feet (1672mm) and 5 Portuguese feet (1664 mm). Right there you see how we kept beating their conquering attempts, our feet are larger and with it the rest.

Their newer high speed lines are 1435mm (and Lisbon subway among other exceptions).

I find a bit weird the mistrust that Americans are somewhat incapable of changing or adopting something new and things have to always be the same.
And also always find funny how a country (rightly) so proud of its independence (the fact itself and the process) defends with so much passion the colonizer system.
Of course there is no will and the issue would probably turn political killing any momentum but Americans certainly are more that capable of change. And just because something was done 200 years ago ... well 200 years ago everyone used something different, metric adoption was around mid 1800s for most countries.
It's like that joke, Europeans think 100 miles (or kms) is a lot, Americans think 100 years is a lot.

 

[polyphenol]

Spain has a different gauge (it's the same we use as we are neighbors, 1668mm). Originally we used 1435mm but ended using Spanish gauge for interoperability.

It's a match between 6 Castilian feet (1672mm) and 5 Portuguese feet (1664 mm). Right there you see how we kept beating their conquering attempts, our feet are larger and with it the rest.

Their newer high speed lines are 1435mm (and Lisbon subway among other exceptions).

It find a bit weird the mistrust that Americans are somewhat incapable of changing or adopting something new and things have to always be the same.
I always find funny how a country (rightly) so proud of its independence (the fact itself and the process) defends with so much passion the colonizer system.
Of course there is no will and the issue would probably turn political killing any momentum but Americans certainly are more that capable of change. And just because something was done 200 years ago ... well 200 years ago everyone used something different, metric adoption was around mid 1800s for most countries.
It's like that joke, Europeans think 100 miles (or kms) is a lot, Americans think 100 years is a lot.

How come Russian railways ended up using a railway track gauge of 5 ft (1,524 mm)?

It is all due to the tremendously hard working navvies.

Although Russia had plenty of very cheap manpower, they needed experience. So they recruited some navvies from the UK.

When they started to lay the track, they didn’t know what gap to leave. One of the navvies explained that the gap was exactly the length of his spade. So he put it down between the rails and that was what they used.

Eventually, someone realised and asked the navvy why the gap was different to back in England. He scratched his head and insisted that was what they had always done. One of the other navvies then pointed out he had just received a brand new spade because the old one had been so worn down…

 

[IvyKing]

Russia chose 5 feet gauge to make it harder for invaders to make use of the Russian rail lines. The use of "standard gauge" as the standard gauge got a big push from the Civil War (War Between the States) with the US Military Railroad. This led to the Pacific Railway act to be amended in 1864 to require the transcontinental lines to be built using 4'8.5" gauge.

For the U.S., it doesn't make economic sense to convert construction materials to metric. Similarly, it doesn't make economic sense to convert from 120V/60Hz to 220V/50Hz for household wiring and modern electronics don't care.

With respect to software: MS-Windows on x86 is a good example of a de-facto standard that went way past its "Best used by date". OTOH, there is something to be said about how MS has maintained backwards compatibility, I'm a bit disappointed in that Apple wouldn't what Sun did with Solaris, setting up containers allowing instances of earlier versions of Solaris to run.

 

[jlc1978]

I find a bit weird the mistrust that Americans are somewhat incapable of changing or adopting something new and things have to always be the same.

The issue is so much stuff is already tied to the existing units that conversion would be very expensive and basically require making 2 sets of stuff for "new" builds and another for "old." Stuff where it s easy already use both, such as food stuffs. Cars are often a mix. Wiring and piping? Not so easy.

The EU can't even adopt a single currency, either. Not all change is easy.

I'm a bit disappointed in that Apple wouldn't what Sun did with Solaris, setting up containers allowing instances of earlier versions of Solaris to run.

Can't you do that in a VM?

 

[polyphenol]

Wiring and piping?

When UK changed plumbing pipes, we went from 1/2 inch inside diameter to 15mm outside diameter. Close enough that a bit of extra force was usually enough. 3/4 inch to 22mm required a special olive or fitting for secure joints but the two could be used on the same installation with a little effort.

And BSP is still widely used - even, for example, in France.

 

[splifingate]

cows are metric

*wipes-down screen*

 

[splifingate]

we went from 1/2 inch inside diameter to 15mm outside diameter

I thought ID was the Standard in Plumbing?

 

[polyphenol]

I thought ID was the Standard in Plumbing?

I think you are right - it was.

In the plumbing trade, the size of copper tubing is measured by its outside diameter in millimetres. Common sizes are 15 mm and 22 mm.

Copper tubing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When we in the UK changed from Imperial, we went for OD in common with the EU using standard EN 1057. Which made lots of sense. Including the possibility of different wall thicknesses. (When there was the great copper shortage, some manufacturers made pipe with the same ID as was then standard, but smaller OD - to reduce copper content. But this was a problem with fittings!

Thus, when plastic pipe became available, we could use many of the same fittings (albeit with pipe inserts). The ID of plastic pipe was smaller so the flow rate was lower - but rarely an issue in plumbing. And it allowed stainless, etc., also to be used.

It appears that the USA is different and references a nominal ID but actually makes the pipes to standard ODs.

 

[polyphenol]

But... I don't drink either Coke or Beer.

Our cows are metric, so they produce milk in litres (1, 2, or 3 depending on family size).

They are further experimenting with cows which have five teats - two cows makes ten.

 

[Digital Dude]

I remember when California tried switching road signs to kilometers in the early ’80s—it was a complete disaster. In my view, the American education system doesn’t produce the same results it once did, so teaching the general public the metric system isn’t as simple as it is in cultures that put a stronger focus on intellectual achievement. 🤷‍♂️

 

[polyphenol]

I remember when California tried switching road signs to kilometers in the early ‘80s—it was a complete disaster. Sadly, America’s education system doesn’t produce the same level of results that it used to. 🤷‍♂️

UK motorways have countdown markers at junctions. Placed at multiples of 100 metres apart according to civil engineering rules. But often referred to as 100 yards markers.

(Whereas similar countdown markers at rail level crossings simply divide the distance so their spacing is arbitrary.)

So similar nonsense.

 

[timber]

We also have somewhat similar exit signs but usually 250 m apart starting at 1 km from the exit. Those are blue and are for the highest rate roads.

Then green and white signs with 150m markers for other roads.

I remember when California tried switching road signs to kilometers in the early ’80s—it was a complete disaster. In my view, the American education system doesn’t produce the same results it once did, so teaching the general public the metric system isn’t as simple as it is in cultures that put a stronger focus on intellectual achievement. 🤷‍♂️

That's what we would call building the house from the roof.
But, once again, the USA is the world superpower (China perhaps, whatever, not the time), very high GDP per capita, countless scientific achievements, countless Nobel prizes, you pick your world beating next statistic,... Why all the gloom?
No interest is understandable but why believe it isn't achievable?

 

[Apple fanboy]

UK motorways have countdown markers at junctions. Placed at multiples of 100 metres apart according to civil engineering rules. But often referred to as 100 yards markers.

(Whereas similar countdown markers at rail level crossings simply divide the distance so their spacing is arbitrary.)

So similar nonsense.

View attachment 2443564

Thing is it doesn’t really matter what the three signs mean in terms of distance.

What it really means is

300 means do nothing.
200 means crap I need to come off in a second.
100 means cut across some poor soul in the left lane and the chevrons to just make your exit in time. 😜

 

[polyphenol]

Thing is it doesn’t really matter what the three signs mean in terms of distance.

What it really means is

300 means do nothing.
200 means crap I need to come off in a second.
100 means cut across some poor soul in the left lane and the chevrons to just make your exit in time. 😜

True. But 100 metres was decided upon and implemented and only later did they back-convert (approximately) to calling it yards in order to avoid confusion/upsetting people. People who cannot handle the fact that metres and yards are close enough to ignore the difference in many situations.

And the rail crossing version could be perplexing to someone who assumes the distances will be the same as they are used to when taking motorway turns.

 

[Herdfan]

They don't. Most Americans can't spell metric, let alone use it;

Trust me, any guy who has lost a 10mm socket knows metric. 😂

 

[Derek Morton]

Why does it matter to you? We use what we like use and you use what you like to use. Do you see us bitching why you use the metric system?
We don't care what you system you use and we like our system.

Now go to bed since it's 1 AM (which is ironic since you should have said 01:00 )

Oh no, since you are talking to a person who has been totally brainwashed by the metric-police... the proper reference to what we (the normal) people refer to as 1:00 AM is (to the metric minded) 0.4167.

Why? Because there is a metric clock. You can even purchase them.

What time did you end up falling asleep? 0.4167, and you?
See! The metric system, it's easy for everybody to know and understand!

 

[Derek Morton]

Okay guys, this is probably my angry 1 AM self again posting here, but this is something that has been bothering me for a few weeks now. I am posting it here because I know this is a website primarily of American people, and I don't know who else to rant this about.


Okay, first off, temperature. We all know what the three useful temperature measurements are. Only one is used in daily use, it's Celsius, and across the entire world. It is the most logical of the three, 0° is water's freezing point, 100° is its boiling point, every semi-educated person knows that. Only THREE countries use Fahrenheit exclusively, and surprise surprise, the United States is one of them. Why? Why is that necessary? Why use a system that is absolutely outdated, makes no sense whatsoever (water freezes at 32° and melts at 212°? yeah, totally makes sense), that is used by basically no one else? Even, excuse me for this term, stubborn countries like the United Kingdom now use Celsius exclusively and primarily. Even Canada, and its influence of the country did not force it to keep Fahrenheit. It annoys me because every time someone says "it's 60° outside!" I have to google and convert it because that means nothing for me, and I don't communicate enough with Americans to bother learning it. I could get away with it if it was something that was used interchangeably in multiple countries, but it isn't, it's outdated.

Second, measurement units. On one hand, you have the most logical system on the planet, the metric system. Simple, each unit correlates with each other, and there are basic prefixes which simply divide or multiply the numbers by multiples of 10. And I will be blunt here, the imperial units are more intuitive and are still somewhat logical. However, once you want to do anything slightly more complex, it becomes annoying. You can't do anything with a system like that. You have to learn the massive amount of words and how each of them correspond with each other. Imagine instead of having to use Kilobytes, Megabytes, Gigabytes, Terabytes, you would instead use Floppies, Discs, Drives, and Servers. It seems like the logical option, but they do not work together well at all and you gotta remember all of that crap. Once again, only the United States along with two other small countries exclusively use this system. In fact, when I thought that the United Kingdom was responsible for the same thing, it turns out it's technically the main measurement system of today (even though many people still use the other one), so I've actually gotta give them credit for having the guts to defy a traditional system. Every commonwealth country has adopted the SI, even if some like Canada still offer it occasionally. Seriously, why do this? Sure, I can deal with that, it's not like it's stupid or anything, but NOT when it's officially only used in a SINGLE GODDAMN COUNTRY (I'm excluding minor countries here because they are usually very small and have very little influence on the rest of the world).

Finally, this one pisses me off so much I just want to die. The date system. The entire world uses one or the other, either a DD/MM/YYYY system (common in European countries), either a YYYY/MM/DD system (common in East-Asian countries and some other places). Both are perfectly fine, as they represent a proper level of importance. What is NOT fine is when a single country just comes to troll everybody and bring a MM/DD/YYYY system, which completely messes up the order of the dates. The month, then a small part of the month, and then the year which the month takes place in? WHAT? How does that make any sense? WHY IS THAT NECESSARY? WHY THE ILLOGICALITY? I can bear with a January 1st, 2016 date system because it is closer to being a feature of the language, but not when it's a purely written form! At least use YYYY/MM/DD if you want to keep the M/D part! Seriously!


Okay, I understand that this was a bit blunt. But I can't accept that. I can't accept a country where there are people so lazy to adopt systems that are, by far, much more convenient than whatever is present, especially considering we are in 2016 and no improvement has been made to this date. And not to mention I'm sure there will be some idiots defending this system saying that "we are not sheeple to follow other people like that!". Well, uh, then you're sheeple to your own ****ing community. Any thoughts? Sure, you may call be brainwashed if that's what you believe, but I'd just like to point out that even though I grew up in a 24h system and I completely switched to 12h. And now I'm (partially) back at 24h. During this whole time, I barely spent any time outside. How exactly can you prove this against me if that's your intent? Anyway, any reasonable and non-biased explanations and/or defenses? Thank you.

So here is my 2 cents:

There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to both systems of measurement. I happily use both based upon the need of the moment. I prefer Fahrenheit over celsius, because the Fahrenheit system provides finer resolution. I prefer grams over ounces for the same reason. The absolute beauty of the not standardizing on the metric system is having the freedom to utilize the best system of measurement for the specific task at hand. The metric system only allows a single base unit for any specific measurement... grams for mass/ weight, meters for distance, etc. However, if I ask you the distance from the Earth to the Sun how do you answer? I would say 1 AU... but the metric system requires you to use meters. Good luck with that answer. It gets worse when you are talking about light-years. How about the weight of an asteroid... in grams.

It may seem easy to use the metric system, but I regularly confuse people - even the metric-minded (brainwashed) by using unusual measurements... such as decimeters, or centigrams. Why? Because those metric-lovers are just as closed minded in their thinking as everybody else (they can visualize a mm, cm, or meter, but never think of decimeter - or dekameter for that matter). More, as the metric system tries to cope with ever larger values they institute more and more prefixes, which creates confusion for those who did not initially learn them as well as requiring people to memorize more and more prefixes (who learned what yotta, ronna or quetta was?). Some of those metric-wonks like to toss out cascading prefix values to overcome the inherent measurement limitations with the metric system - mega-giga-gigagrams, and silliness like that.

In the USA we are free to use metric if we choose. We are also free to use any other measurement units we choose... even parsecs!

 

[jlc1978]

Trust me, any guy who has lost a 10mm socket knows metric. 😂

Yes, and I also know a few other things to go along with losing the socket...

 

[GrayFlannel]

I am posting it here because I know this is a website primarily of American people, and I don't know who else to rant this about.

Only THREE countries use Fahrenheit exclusively, and surprise surprise, the United States is one of them. Why? Why is that necessary?

Anyway, any reasonable and non-biased explanations and/or defenses? Thank you.

There’s between 1,776 and 1,812 reasons.