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Save for the motherboard (and the system, the case, and the thermal design), pretty much all of the other components are commodities. Presuming that the motherboard is the most complex part of the computer and that boards can be designed and fabricated into a "proof of design" sample in six or eight weeks (my experience), I don't see the reason for 18 months for introduction to the market – unless they have done nothing so far and don't intend to start for another six months. If, on the other hand, they intend to re-invent the concept of a “pro” machine, I should cut them some slack, assuming that their need for “re-invention” matches the prosumer’s need for updated equipment. The angst of the many recent comments leaves that philosophy in some doubt. At least we can agree that Apple took the low compliance path towards customer satisfaction on this update.

I am not an engineer, but I am thinking that the intended Mac Pro update is not so simple a designing and fabricating a new motherboard, otherwise it would have been done. From what I've read, there have been two motherboard designs for the current run of Mac Pros from the 1,1 model, which has resulted in the 1,1 and 2,1 no longer being supported in OS updates, so the only logical conclusion is that the motherboard design is not so simple when you add in the OS.

I also have read that there was a change in how the processors accessed RAM from 1,1 to the most recent version, but that there is still a problem related to how Thunderbolt is connected to the system which makes the current generation motherboard incapable of being updated to take advantage of the newest chip designs.

Granted these are consumer products and not aerospace systems controls, but given the production volume and Apple's reputation for working out of the box, I don't think that you can compare your prior experience with design for consumer products. I agree that it does not appear that the Mac Pro is a priority for Apple from an engineering standpoint, but it does seem consistent with Apple's habit in the Pro area to create machines that can work a long time.

Like you, I use my Mac Pro, a 3,1, for music applications, and except for the loss of support for some legacy software in the latest OS, my Mac Pro has basically been running for the last four years non-stop with only software issues to slow it down. Now compare that to your iMac experience, which is designed solely for consumer use, and you might understand why I don't have any issue with Apple working to get it right with the next Mac Pro update. While I am disappointed in how long it's taking, I'd rather they get the redesign right, so my next desk station has a similar useful life.
 
The idea that Apple can't juggle more than one or three hardware projects at a time is complete ********. Apple is a half-trillion dollar company with nearly $100 billion dollars in cash. To say that they cannot afford or do not have the engineering talent to handle teams for each of their product lines would sticking in the mindset of Apple as it were 5+ years ago...then again, 5 years ago Apple actually visibly cared about the professional market.

They certainly have more than 100Billion to burn in cash but still have 24hrs in a day, which has remain constant ever since, for everyone. i don't want them give me something that they haven't put that much time and attention in building it
 
The 6 core Mac Pro uses a processor that still costs $600 and you're comparing it a $700 computer? Your comparison is irrelevant, regardless of the fact that the CPU was released in 2010.

You're basically comparing a 2006 BMW M3 CS to a 2012 Ford Focus and saying that the Focus must be better because it has better iPod integration. Yes, there are probably some differences in the engine performance, but I would guess not that much. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately though Apple is still trying to sell the E46 M3 as a brand new car. That's the problem.

The sad part about your analogy, is that many people in the car world would by a brand new E46 M3 over the latest offerings, purely based on the fact that it was the last real ///M. I love mine.
 
The sad part about your analogy, is that many people in the car world would by a brand new E46 M3 over the latest offerings, purely based on the fact that it was the last real ///M. I love mine.

We could argue about that all day. Sure, the E92 may be blunted and not quite as "M" as the E46 was, but it's still a damn fine car. Most enthusiasts reckon the original E30 is still the king. Unfortunately I've not had an opportunity to drive it since it's very rare where I grew up, but I live in England now and there are a few of them kicking about. I wouldn't mind getting one just for a giggle.
 
We could argue about that all day. Sure, the E92 may be blunted and not quite as "M" as the E46 was, but it's still a damn fine car. Most enthusiasts reckon the original E30 is still the king. Unfortunately I've not had an opportunity to drive it since it's very rare where I grew up, but I live in England now and there are a few of them kicking about. I wouldn't mind getting one just for a giggle.

I think the majority of enthusiasts say the last true ///M is the E46 because it has the same recipe. N/A straight 6 in the front, drive in the back. I would quote Clarkson, but I respect him more than to steal his words.

The E9x Ms are great cars, but they lack the M-ness... Sure, they are fast, and make power, but they are softer, and bloated. They are great cars, but to be honest, it is an E39 with a redesign. V8 in the front, more space inside, etc, etc... The 1M is the only real E46 successor, and they added turbos, but I'll tell you what.... THAT is THE car right now.
 
I think the majority of enthusiasts say the last true ///M is the E46 because it has the same recipe. N/A straight 6 in the front, drive in the back. I would quote Clarkson, but I respect him more than to steal his words.

The E9x Ms are great cars, but they lack the M-ness... Sure, they are fast, and make power, but they are softer, and bloated. They are great cars, but to be honest, it is an E39 with a redesign. V8 in the front, more space inside, etc, etc... The 1M is the only real E46 successor, and they added turbos, but I'll tell you what.... THAT is THE car right now.

Evo Magazine voted the E30 as the best M with the E46 in close second (the CS edition... I am not sure if you had the CS edition or if it was UK only thing. In South Africa we also had the E46 M3 CSL, which had bucket seats and no air-con.
 
Evo Magazine voted the E30 as the best M with the E46 in close second (the CS edition... I am not sure if you had the CS edition or if it was UK only thing. In South Africa we also had the E46 M3 CSL, which had bucket seats and no air-con.

The CSL is much more than the seats and lack of Air Con. A redesigned front bumper, New intake plenum, carboard boot floor, carbon fiber roof, SMG only with a different program, and all lightweight glass. More power, less weight... Good recipe.
 
The CSL is much more than the seats and lack of Air Con. A redesigned front bumper, New intake plenum, carboard boot floor, carbon fiber roof, SMG only with a different program, and all lightweight glass. More power, less weight... Good recipe.

Ok, ok. I didn't go into the details because I didn't know you were such a fan. :) Yes, the CSL was rather special.
 
OK, OK. Yes, my comments had some ignorance in them. Thank you for not being too hard on me. After working in the aerospace (space) industry for 35+ years I do understand the nuances of cheap vs. robust/hi-rel electronic design. However, I think to be fair, there are user levels of "Pro" out there that need something more than the iMac, and certainly less than the full blown capability of what either a tricked out MacPro or XEON workstation provides. For me, it is music creation using Logic Studio and it is a hobby since I am retired. What I do know is that I have gone through three iMacs failing after only three or four years. They simply do not last. They essentially burn themselves out. And, they cannot be configured in any way save for some added minimal amount of RAM. The iMac sound capability is weak and has to be augmented by external USB devices. The plug-in music applications each require a dongle, some of which cannot be connected to external USB hubs. The keyboards (piano) should be connected directly to the computer, not through a hub. Etc. The iMac’s four USB ports are inadequate. I think that that was why I saw a Pavillion as "viable" (with its eight USB ports), though I can certainly understand why it would be a poor choice for much of what others need in a MacPro (ergo, the car analogy). Further, I reiterate that providing a real update at the end of next year does not make sense. Save for the motherboard (and the system, the case, and the thermal design), pretty much all of the other components are commodities. Presuming that the motherboard is the most complex part of the computer and that boards can be designed and fabricated into a "proof of design" sample in six or eight weeks (my experience), I don't see the reason for 18 months for introduction to the market – unless they have done nothing so far and don't intend to start for another six months. If, on the other hand, they intend to re-invent the concept of a “pro” machine, I should cut them some slack, assuming that their need for “re-invention” matches the prosumer’s need for updated equipment. The angst of the many recent comments leaves that philosophy in some doubt. At least we can agree that Apple took the low compliance path towards customer satisfaction on this update.

Very well said.
 
LOL!

Gr8 fun to see the  and BMW merge in this thread :)

Best ///M IMHO is the last M5. The raw V10, normally aspirated (and, looks like a normal 4-door saloon)

Me, I got a 123d (the bi-turbo) coup. Lovely car! Feels gr8 and is plenty fast! Like my 8 Core 2008 Mac Pro (with Radeon 5870)
 
For me, it is music creation using Logic Studio and it is a hobby since I am retired. What I do know is that I have gone through three iMacs failing after only three or four years. They simply do not last. They essentially burn themselves out.

Just curious, what hard drive(s) did you have in your iMacs and how did you set them up?
 
Just curious, what hard drive(s) did you have in your iMacs and how did you set them up?

Just the single (its only capability) 1 TByte HDD in the current iMac. I have a Netgear NAS for back-up. The previous iMacs also employed a single HDD. The set-up was as originally configured by Apple. I didn't play around with the partitioning (if that is what you meant) as I always used some sort of external back-up drive (as well as CDs and DVDs) for protecting critical files.
 
Nah...

Still think the E39 ///M was the best of the lot.

Yes, the 3's are better pure driving M's, and the V10 wasn't too shabby...
when it ran.
But the E39 bodystyle was by for the best ever, and the M made it all the more fun to drive while still having a somewhat low profile for its power.


Once more, all my opinion of course, and agian, you know what they say about those! ;)
 
But they would look even more stupid if they released a brand-new MacPro, still without ThB! That's right, the LGA2011 boards do not support it natively, so what can they do?

I don't buy this. If that's their thinking, they wouldn't have "updated" it with a processor bump and still slapped a "New" icon on it. They could just as easily performed a silent update, slapped a "New" icon on it, except had an updated Xeon platform and graphics card. You'd probably still see howls of protests about the lack of Thunderbolt, but not as loud as they are now by completely ignoring the platform. My guess is that they have all hands on deck for the Apple TV and have taken whatever resources were on Pro for that. Only after the TV is released will they let one guy spend a week of his time to update the mobo, proc, and graphics card on the Mac Pro.
 
Nah...

Still think the E39 ///M was the best of the lot.

Yes, the 3's are better pure driving M's, and the V10 wasn't too shabby...
when it ran.
But the E39 bodystyle was by for the best ever, and the M made it all the more fun to drive while still having a somewhat low profile for its power.


Once more, all my opinion of course, and agian, you know what they say about those! ;)

Yea, there has always been a special place in my heart for the E39. I had a 2001 and loved it. The six speed manual was the easiest to play with, and even though the car was fast, it was so comfortable. I liked the E39 over the E46 for daily driving for sure...

However, the E46 is by far the best for any kind of motorsport. Sure, it is designed to be the fastest, lightest and most nimble. If you want to go to the track, get an E46. If you want a car that will crucify all and be comfortable... Get an E39.

The newer cars (E60, E9x and even the F10) are bloated, and overly complicated. The last ///M you can work on is the E46/E39... I wish they made an M7 at the time. Imagine the cross of comfort, style and speed they could come up with... :drool:
 
Cars shmars.

Can we give the M3 owners their own mini forum please? It looks like they need one.
I own an ancient Kawasaki GPZ900R (A7), it does 0-100 mph in around 10 seconds despite the power being reduced over the course of its development. It still scares M3s away from the lights today. £1400 well spent, Beemer owners shamefully emasculated on demand by an 80's designed dinosaur.
:D
 
OK, OK. Yes, my comments had some ignorance in them. Thank you for not being too hard on me. After working in the aerospace (space) industry for 35+ years I do understand the nuances of cheap vs. robust/hi-rel electronic design. However, I think to be fair, there are user levels of "Pro" out there that need something more than the iMac, and certainly less than the full blown capability of what either a tricked out MacPro or XEON workstation provides. For me, it is music creation using Logic Studio and it is a hobby since I am retired. What I do know is that I have gone through three iMacs failing after only three or four years. They simply do not last. They essentially burn themselves out. And, they cannot be configured in any way save for some added minimal amount of RAM. The iMac sound capability is weak and has to be augmented by external USB devices. The plug-in music applications each require a dongle, some of which cannot be connected to external USB hubs. The keyboards (piano) should be connected directly to the computer, not through a hub. Etc. The iMac’s four USB ports are inadequate. I think that that was why I saw a Pavillion as "viable" (with its eight USB ports), though I can certainly understand why it would be a poor choice for much of what others need in a MacPro (ergo, the car analogy). Further, I reiterate that providing a real update at the end of next year does not make sense. Save for the motherboard (and the system, the case, and the thermal design), pretty much all of the other components are commodities. Presuming that the motherboard is the most complex part of the computer and that boards can be designed and fabricated into a "proof of design" sample in six or eight weeks (my experience), I don't see the reason for 18 months for introduction to the market – unless they have done nothing so far and don't intend to start for another six months. If, on the other hand, they intend to re-invent the concept of a “pro” machine, I should cut them some slack, assuming that their need for “re-invention” matches the prosumer’s need for updated equipment. The angst of the many recent comments leaves that philosophy in some doubt. At least we can agree that Apple took the low compliance path towards customer satisfaction on this update.

Why do you insist on ranting about some computer in the BMW M forum?

Oh, no, wait... Nevermind.

<Gazing into crystal ball> the reason it takes 18 months is because Apple can't be bothered to support USB3 and Thunderbolt on their own, they are waiting for Intel to release new Xeons.

I believe that Mac Pro Eternal/Timeless/End of Time (2009, 2010, 2012, it's so perfect, we haven't bothered changing anything 'cept adding the Westmere chips), is the end of the dinosaurs.

I am 100% sure that whatever arrives as the new "pro" machine, will have a different case, and probably make quite a few people even more psychotic about everything they threw out. The "xMac" that's been ranted about for half a decade+ will quite likely arrive and replace the Mac Pro.

Of course, if Apple is waiting on Intel, based upon Intel's delivery of the last two Xeon updates, 2013 is gonna become 2014 before it drops.

Basically ... it takes 18 months because Apple can't be bothered to dedicate resources money/manpower/time, to solving Mac Pro problems, because it's down somewhere around #501 on the Top 500 Most Important Issues for Apple hot-list.

tl;dr: why does it take 18 months to update?
Because Apple doesn't really care much and can't be bothered.

On the bright side, name a single time in computer history since the Apple ][ days, when you could purchase the Most Awesome Super-Powerful Computer Apple Ever Made, and it still is... 5 years later. Also, that 2009 is gonna continue running OS/X an awfully long time, because it's Exactly the Same Thing, as the Brand New 2012 if you run the firmware updater and drop in some Westmere chips.

MacPro5,1 End of Time/Eternal
 
I've enjoyed the great discussion based on comparison with "M" BMWs.


But ... the Macbook Pro is the "M" BMW. Small, handles well, and is fast. The Retina even looks really good, like a sports car should. And you have to leave it alone - in other words, get BMW to service it. In Apple's case, you have to leave it alone. You can add a trailer to an M BMW ... but then its no longer sporty, and with drives and monitors added onto to its outside, it handles poorly. If you want to be sporty, you've got to remove all the trailer bits.

The Mac Pro is a truck - and a semi-trailer. It's close to being a Road Train in some cases. Its designed for the long haul, and you can attach different trailers onto it if you need. RAM slots mean you can add fuel tanks to it - 8 in the big unit. And you can do it yourself. It's Xeon engines allow ECC RAM to work, so its more reliable when the road is long and rough and the going gets really tough. And it can be run flat out, for years and years. And if you want, you can roll your sleeves up, and service it yourself. You can even hot it up if you like - even changing engines these days is very easy. Sure they are slow with new ones, but the ones they make do keep truck'en. Try all that with a BMW.

Its the opposite of an "M" IMO!
 
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I've enjoyed the great discussion based on comparison with "M" BMWs.


But ... the Macbook Pro is the "M" BMW. Small, handles well, and is fast. The Retina even looks really good, like a sports car should. And you have to leave it alone - in other words, get BMW to service it. In Apple's case, you have to leave it alone. You can add a trailer to an M BMW ... but then its no longer sporty, and with drives and monitors added onto to its outside, it handles poorly. If you want to be sporty, you've got to remove all the trailer bits.

The Mac Pro is a truck - and a semi-trailer. It's close to being a Road Train in some cases. Its designed for the long haul, and you can attach different trailers onto it if you need. RAM slots mean you can add fuel tanks to it - 8 in the big unit. And you can do it yourself. It's Xeon engines allow ECC RAM to work, so its more reliable when the road is long and rough and the going gets really tough. And it can be run flat out, for years and years. And if you want, you can roll your sleeves up, and service it yourself. You can even hot it up if you like - even changing engines these days is very easy. Sure they are slow with new ones, but the ones they make do keep truck'en. Try all that with a BMW.

Its the opposite of an "M" IMO!
Trucks are cool too.

2z7er04.jpg


Translation: Even a Mercedes can deliver sheer driving pleasure.
 
Who says apple is waiting on xeons? Could be something different that would shift away from xeons. With everything apple going to iOS, why not a multi processor Mac pro that runs iOS. Microsoft made windows 8 to run on multi core arm processors. Allot lower voltage. Could apple do an multi processor A6 (or something similar) and run iOS? Possible. Seems apple is delaying for a reason. Guess we will have to wait until 2013 to find out.
 
With everything apple going to iOS, why not a multi processor Mac pro that runs iOS.

Given iOS intimately involves as touch screen and the Mac Pro has no screen ..... that doesn't seem to be a particularly high synergy. Sort of like a group of Blue Whales migrating out of the Pacific to Las Vegas (the desert hundreds of miles inland) .



Could apple do an multi processor A6 (or something similar) and run iOS?

A multicore A6 would have trouble keeping up with the CPU in a MBA let along the current iMac. Comparing ARMs , even the upcoming A 15 based offerings, to what is in the current Mac Pro is a joke. They aren't even in the same zipcode, let alone the same ballpark.

The Mac Pro problems have NOTHING to do with iOS and ARM chips. People keep pointing to iOS and "iToys" which largely just amounts to misdirection. Those are other market with largely their own issues.

The desktop market is pretty close to stagnant:

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/07/11/all_in_one_desktops_on_the_ascendant/

It is a relatively very mature market that is running out of growth options.

If the Mac Pro was stripped of Engineering and R&D resources it is far more likely that the "retina" MBP 15 and apparently MBP 13" soaked up the Mac allocation of resources. Likewise the iMac (and perhaps mini ) got some too. Apple appears to be about to roll out a surprising overlapping laptop line up. perhaps three 13" models. Two 15" models and with the simplicity only at the 11" offering. That's where the "revolution" is taking place. None of those laptop products begin with an "i". The all begin with "Mac".

One of the "Problems" with the Mac Pro core design is that it hasn't been re-thought in a long time. It is probably much easier for Apple to tweak the others which have moved more, if only because they have done it more recently.
 
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