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The iMac line-up is great, except for one small thing: grfx. :mad:
Just give us one extra iMac option....
Buy the most expensive iMac now, and be sure future games will run horribly on it.

They'll never do such a crazy thing. They'd rather set the iMac graphics bar low, and push you into bumping up to the laptops at the next price point. Nevermind that you don't really need the portability, or that heat/space/battery-life issues prevent all but average graphics engines from being shoehorned inside the damn thing (as is the case with all laptops), if you want those 3-4 additional FPS you'll pay the extra $1000 and buy a laptop you don't need.

There's also a form-over-function factor at work here too. That GeForce 8800 runs big, hot, and loud while the iMacs are designed to be slim, reasonably cool, dead silent pieces of industrial art. Apple doesn't care if it's slow or limited, as long as it's pretty. Just look at the new Apple keyboard and that terrible Mighty Mouse.
 
My 0.02€ as ex-game developer

This is B.S.

Mac OS X is pretty well shaped for games. Even for GUI - not full-screen ones.

As ex-Windows-game-devel, I can only say that the whiner from Valve doesn't want to throw away all the hacks & workarounds it has put into place to make it working under Windows and DirectX.

Mac OS X from developer POV is very polished - and OMG well documented. Heck, you can even submit bugs to Apple. And ZOMG!!! they do actually fix them - instead of usual to M$ "do this dance around our bugs which we never gonna fix due to backward compatibility" crap.

In my past, I spent about two month polishing real-time arcade game under Windows - two month only to make it run "smoothly". (Who likes real time games with jitter in them?) Three years ago, under Mac OS X, in my commuting time, from complete ground zero I made a game which worked smoothly and used solely official APIs from Apple. Heck, it can't be easier than that.

I can only say, that code filled with workaround for Wind0ze bugs would be unportable to Mac OS X. And clean polished Mac OS X is also not portable to Windows - w00t? - because you can't simply insert workaround for all the stupid features you need under Windows. Mac OS X code doesn't have all the placeholders Wind0ze needs and M$ never cared to fill.

O.K. Time have passed and M$ might have changed. But reviewing recently DirectX APIs and documentation brought to me lots of ... no, not fun - nightmarish memories from past. God Forbid to develop for Wind0ze again.
 
Totally agree with valve.

MAC GRAPHICS CARDS SUCK

I think it's reasonable to assume that most people will be playing games on iMacs, so lets look at what they offer:

ATI Radeon HD 2400 128MB (this seriously sucks, I should know because I have one)
or
ATI Radeon HD 2600 256MB

An ATI HD 2006 is fine if there is a high end option!. Where are the 8800s? How am I supposed to play the latest generation of games on an ATI 2600?


Indeed, even if you have a mac pro your best option (excluding the scientific card) is an:
ATI X1900 XT

Well, that's OK, maybe we could use crossfire... oh wait ;)
 
Just to throw a bit more fuel on the fire - IMO Macs will never be a platform for major games because:
- Developing a big, complex, flagship game (e.g. BioShock) costs five metric assloads of money for one console platform.
- Porting it to PC costs you another metric assload, plus half a metric assload to support it, since PCs are such a dogs dinner of random software and components.
- Console sales generate six assloads of money, PC sales maybe two and a half assloads. So you've spent 6.5 assloads and earned 8.5 assloads, making a profit of two AL.
- Porting the game to Mac costs a bit less than the PC port, and a bit less in support (since the platform is less variable) but would only generate one assload of sales. So you would lose money if you were dumb enough to do such a thing.

If you're right, and if Apple's market share continues to rise, then it is in fact inevitable that gaming will eventually come to the Mac with a vengeance.
 
Just to throw a bit more fuel on the fire - IMO Macs will never be a platform for major games because:
- Developing a big, complex, flagship game (e.g. BioShock) costs five metric assloads of money for one console platform.
- Porting it to PC costs you another metric assload, plus half a metric assload to support it, since PCs are such a dogs dinner of random software and components.
- Console sales generate six assloads of money, PC sales maybe two and a half assloads. So you've spent 6.5 assloads and earned 8.5 assloads, making a profit of two AL.
- Porting the game to Mac costs a bit less than the PC port, and a bit less in support (since the platform is less variable) but would only generate one assload of sales. So you would lose money if you were dumb enough to do such a thing.

Bear in mind that BioShock PC was badly badly bugged on release, that it was basically an X360 game running on a PC - and it was still Shooter of the Year so Far. It's getting to the point where ALL big games are written for consoles, and ported to PC if the economics look good. Once the next gen of consoles come along PC games will be either niche (flight sims, strategy), casual, or ports of 2-3 year old console games. Macs will be even worse off, unless they get to parity market share.
For companies like Ambrosia etc. this is all gravy, since they can make a living out of making small games for the unserved niche. But for anyone thinking of a big game (the kind where you have dozens and dozens of people working full-time for several years) consoles are basically the only way to make a profit.

The other option If Apple wants games is that it has to provide a development Environment (like the rumoured yellow box) that would allow single project or Universal Binary could run on Windows or Mac or Even be a boot disk in it's own right for BYO consoles.

Indeed providing such an environment might be a killer move for them.
Sure to drive sales of them MacPros, oh and sew up the what's left of the creative market as Mac Users.
 
Apple is too busy developing new marketing schemes with ATT. They probably prefer to see games one has to download on their IPhone and then share revenues with ATT. Apple is not interested in 3rd party applications running on their OS if they can't profit from that.
 
It's getting to the point where ALL big games are written for consoles, and ported to PC if the economics look good. Once the next gen of consoles come along PC games will be either niche (flight sims, strategy), casual, or ports of 2-3 year old console games. Macs will be even worse off, unless they get to parity market share.

This is spot-on and an unfortunate turn for us PC/Mac gamers out there. Games ported from consoles to PC/Mac never have all the bells, whistles and functionality that a game originally written for a PC/Mac would have. :(
 
Yeah, to my understanding of the Gabe Newell comments, it's more about the Havok physics engine than anything else, which runs 100k or more in licensing costs. So, what Mac game developer can justify such a huge up-front outlay when they're not going to make it up on the back end in sales?

Noone, and Valve knows it. All this is is a tactic to save face on an old argument. "Pay us more, and we'll gladly come to your 5% of the PC gaming market".
 
Yeah, to my understanding of the Gabe Newell comments, it's more about the Havok physics engine than anything else, which runs 100k or more in licensing costs. So, what Mac game developer can justify such a huge up-front outlay when they're not going to make it up on the back end in sales?

Noone, and Valve knows it. All this is is a tactic to save face on an old argument. "Pay us more, and we'll gladly come to your 5% of the PC gaming market".
Blizzard
 

That's fine and all, but Blizzard's game engines aren't terribly cutting edge. Never have been.

I guess I should have been more specific.

Still, as long as Blizzard does hybrid discs, there's no way (other than registration cards) to track which title purches ends up on a Mac or a PC.
 
Bah... Everybody knows Gabe is a Microsoft Zealot

Before owning a Mac I had a PC, and I used to play a lot of Counterstrike... Halflife is awesome, and Halflife 2 is even better. I love Valve's games. I really do.

I also think if they did Steam for the Mac, and enabled Play PC vs Mac People it would be awesome.

---

Now, Gabe Newell is a Microsoft Zealot. Frankly the man is an eminence in computing. If someone knew how to make a game on the Mac that would be awesome, would be Gabe and his team. So why, he gives a lame excuse like he did on the article? Let me quote you and tell you why:

"Gabe: We've seen no evidence that they are able to follow through on even simple programs in the game space. It seems bizarre to me because it's like one of the biggest things holding them back in the consumer space. If you look at a Macintosh right now, it does a lot of things really well compared to a Vista PC, but there are no games."

Ok in this first paragraph, he states there are no games. Hmm. Gabe Dude, I tell you... you have to go out more... Baby steps, out of your office... Baby steps into the outside, baby steps smell the air... Blizzard has been making games available on the Mac since ever. Blizzard has the #1 MMO, and guess what, it was launched from day 1 on the mac. Jesus they have already patched their games since 2.2 to run on Leopard. Can Gabe Newell of Valve tell me how come Blizzard can play ball with OSX but the great Gabe Newell not? Another Company that has taken the plunge is id Software. If God Carmack could do it, why not Valve. Carmack demoed the new engine with the game Rage! and it ran simultaneously on Windows, Mac and Linux. These two Developer Studios are powerhouses capable of doing games on the Mac, so why Valve can't? Keep reading...

"Why, I don't know. If I were a Macintosh product manager, it would be pretty high on my list, and a problem to get taken care of, as probably the number one thing holding them back with consumers."

But you are not a Product Manager, you are the CEO of the Valve Power House... So don't tell Apple what to do... go sit on your desk, talk to Lombardi, and tell him, "Doug, babe... I want to do a Mac Game... but I just can't do it with Bill "The BeastMaster" knowing about it... so I want you to do it for me......"... And the Dougmeister has a freaking full staff full of people to tell, when you are done playing BioShock, lets go make a Mac game and get to it. or no trips to hawaii or disney land for that instance.

Apple number one thing holding them back is people that don't want to get their hands dirty and use their tools and what not to make a game for OSX that rocks the foundations.... Kind of like Blizzard, has done over the years. So until Valve grows balls of steel, and Gabe Newell can direct his team to do it, (or he gives the bird to Microsoft and stops being such a Zealot), Valve will not make a game for the Mac.

Its that simple.

I am pretty sure if Valve did Steam on the Mac, the Mac Way... and started porting their engine to Mac OSX Leopard, and things like that, they would have a great market.

That is my opinion, as a gamer, and a consumer of Apple Products, PC User and Apple Convert. I am not going back to PC with Vista or XP. OSX for me is a much better platform... and I will just play Orange Box on my Xbox360.

Kildjean
 
Posts on here telling members if they want to play games buy a console or PC is just plain ignorance. I don't want a poxy console to play games with another monitor alongside my Mac. My beautiful Mac should be capable of doing it all, and I have every right as a consumer to demand that it does so. Saying that "Macs aren't built for gaming, get over it" is simply a poor poor excuse, covering up for a lack of effort and vision by Apple with blind loyalty. It's not as if money can't be made through gaming. Apple could make a lot of damn money from gaming, it being such a massive industry now.

It's a shame, because I would love to have a Mac that's a great gaming machine, as well as doing all the other stuff right.

Amen to that.
 
Posts on here telling members if they want to play games buy a console or PC is just plain ignorance. I don't want a poxy console to play games with another monitor alongside my Mac. My beautiful Mac should be capable of doing it all, and I have every right as a consumer to demand that it does so. Saying that "Macs aren't built for gaming, get over it" is simply a poor poor excuse, covering up for a lack of effort and vision by Apple with blind loyalty. It's not as if money can't be made through gaming. Apple could make a lot of damn money from gaming, it being such a massive industry now.

I'm sorry, but what's your evidence for this? "Apple could make a lot of damn money from gaming" - how much?

It is a massive industry now, but the large bulk of the money in the gaming industry is in consoles (which is why so many devs are focusing their attention there).

-Zadillo
 
Still, as long as Blizzard does hybrid discs, there's no way (other than registration cards) to track which title purches ends up on a Mac or a PC.

This turns out not to be the case, we run quarterly automated surveys to develop a picture of what the platform breakdown is amongst people playing online.
 
As I said before, it all comes down to market share. Neither Apple nor the developers want to budge, but if enough people own Macs they will start paying attention, since every new switcher or first-time Mac buyer increases the installed base. More Mac users = bigger market.
 
-The 8800GTS is not an ultra high end card anymore. You can pick one up for $250-$300f. The GTX and Ultra series are more $$ but anyway, its a very good card for the money and dont downlplay the issue of lack of video card choices on the mac by trying to downplay or make fun of the 8800 series "8800 GTS 5gig overclocked etcetcetc". thats just weak.

-The only driver issues with the 8800 series is in regards to DX10 and vista. Its not horribly bad either. The card can do DX9 with the same reliability and stability as the older cards.

-the X1900xt is not underpowered for current games - just doesnt have enough horsepower to run games at full detail on a huge panel. Its fine for now but the X1900 series is not available in the imac is it? You have to go for an expensive tower to get a card from 2 years ago. Its about on par with my 7950GT in my PC.... I dont consider my card cutting edge. Its good but not that good. The other cards in apple's lineup pretty much suck for any real gaming.

-With regards to OSX, great...so now apple has no games because its microsofts fault. Nice. Microsoft has DirectX and lets blame them for that. They wanted a system that allowed for easy game development not just for graphics but sound and input devices and thats what DirectX is. Its not JUST a 3D graphics engine. Thats just one component of it. Maybe apple should get off its butt and invest some time and $$ into some kind of development package that makes it really easy for developers to make games for them... Dont compare OSX to linux becuase linux is not a company. There are a thousand flavors of linux and each a little different than the next. Apple is a large corporation and obviously right now they cannot compete at least in the games department.

-You need to get off your high horse if you really think that windows is that unstable. Heck I can probably send in text format the log files for the system I have at home running vista64. Running it since mid January and you'll be able to see the last bluescreen or memory dump it did. Oh wait no you wont, because it hasnt happened yet. Thats right. Not even a hang or freeze or reboot. I run the computer from about 7pm to 1am every night...


What apple SHOULD do if they care at all about people who want some power and flexability but dont have huge money for a mac pro is to make a core2 based tower. Something between the imac and mac pro. Also update the graphics card lineup. Right now the lineup is cutesy mini's and imacs or expensive and overkill mac pros. Nothing for normal people that want SOME internal expansion....


I see more half assed comments about mac hardware than just about anything else.

First, let me say that mac graphics cards are NOT underpowered by ANY means. They offer the highest end STABLE card avaliable, and update pretty quickly, save their laptop line (as the same with any other company). "But there no 8800 GTS 5gig overclocked etcetcetc" no ****, and judging by the shoddy drivers and issues with multiples of games already, I doubt it will be ready for "primetime" anytime too soon. Yeah, you beta test hardware and drivers in windows. I would not call a ati x1900 or a 7600gts underpowered. I am pulling better fps on my mac in WoW than MOST the feedback I see on their forums, and a full 20fps faster than in bootcamp on the same system. other games like CoD2 I get 30fps faster than the same in bootcamp, using latest drivers. Hell, I am pulling better fps than most 8800 users in WoW. Stop saying Mac has "shitt" cards becuase it doesn't have the zero day latest. I have yet to find a game I cannot get better than 30fps with my current 7600gts in my iMac 24". I agree that you should be able to upgrade you system to faster cards as they come out however. Even if that means shipping it to Apple and they do it for free or something. There is no reason a iMac 20" that had a x1600 cannot change that to a x1900 later down the road, and with the glarring emptiness that should be a mid-powered stand alone system, not just the expensive mac pro, I think Apple should look into that. Apples retain their value with age quite a bit better than a pc, so with little value loss, why are you using a 2-3 year old mac? I thought it was common knowledge that you have to upgrade every 1-2 years. Also, who the hell buys a laptop FOR gaming? I keep hearing this OVER AND OVER. Laptops are underpowered, slower HDs, slower video cards, etcetc. I do not see anyone buying Dell laptops exclusivly for gaming, how is apple different?

Don't say Apple is fully to blame for the lack of games on OS X either. I am sure porting would have been quite a bit better had Microsoft not used leverage, customer base, and $$ to get game makers to switch from opengl to directx (see HL1 for instance). Microsoft does NOT release the dx engine to anyone, and they will not, of course, release source. They have locked game makers into using DX7+ and game makers cannot redo all of their code to port to other systems, it would be an entirely new game. Microsoft is not releasing any way to port DX APIs to any other system, be is opengl or whatever. So just what is Apple supposed to do at this point? They are stuck with OpenGL as their only gaming platform, they could make their own which would probably rock, but no company is going to pick it up, uprooting all their development on new games just to re-release older games for macs. They would have to make the switch for their new games.... and again the problem comes in. Most games use a gaming engine, then the game is developed around it, and we are back to the problem of totally rewriting the engine for them = not going to happen.
Apple is not the only one in this boat. I do not see linux versions of these game at my standard EB. Don't go after the next "big" player in the field and not point to the other guys that are in the same boat. Where is my DirectX for linux? No, you are stuck with wine and the like, just like mac.
Congrats to the companys that are trying to make a port system to port the calls for directx directly into opengl, but that is a bandaide. Any emulation or realtime conversion will cut performance drastically.

So, you're a hardcore gamer. Ok, then mac is NOT right for you. Apple wanted to create a system that WORKS, always. No bluescreens, no crashes, no irq conflicts, no driver updates every day, none of that **** you go thru as a windows gamer. The system "Just Works" and it works well. Its FAST, and I have had ONE crash since I started using mine, which was due to a 3rd party program accessing fan speeds. Part of the stability macs give you is becuase they do NOT allow you, the moron that THINKS he knows pcs but really doesn't know dick, out of the hardware and drivers to keep you from dicking it up to hell and back. They do NOT have the latest flimsyware graphics cards that are greatly unstable with shoddy drivers just to give you 5-10fps. They sacrifice zero day hardware, for slightly slower greatly more stable and reliable hardware and drivers. They get nvidia and ati to load special firmware on the cards to allow their hardware/software leech everybit of performance WITHOUT overclocking and lessesning the life of the product. I hear ALL THE TIME, "Well I blew my MB overclocking this or installing that, etcetc" and I have YET to hear that with macs. Yeah, I cannot FORCE it to produce 3x the heat to gain 1fps... somehow I will not lose sleep over that. So, all that said, yeah, its NOT a hardcore gamers box. That hardly means its NOT a gaming machine though. You get microsoft to release or even license (they will not do ANY of it!) their proprietary dx engine, and I GARUNTEE you 50x games will be released for mac within a month. Microsoft knows that games are holding the macs back, and they intend to keep it that way, even if they have to PAY companies like valve to continue using ONLY windows.
 
Great follow-up article!! :D

http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/gameroom/2007/10/valve/index.php

I was right on the money... pun intended... it's all about the money to Valve.

I love their conclusion!

In each and every case, the developers and publishers I’ve pointed to have found ways to bring their games to the Mac platform, without making excuses or blaming Apple for a lack of interest. And they’ve done it without any backdoor deals from Apple.


So what makes Valve special?


The answer: Nothing.
 
If you believe this post, money was a big factor for Half-Life 2 not coming to the Mac:

Here's a bit of history. A few months before Half-Life 2 came out, I sent a short but sweet letter to Newell asking about Half-Life 2 for the Mac. He responded by saying that no one at Apple had contacted them about doing Half-Life 2 for the Mac. So naturually, I fired off an email to Steve Jobs about this. I basically told him that if Apple had to have one must game on the platform that year, it would have to be Half-Life 2.

Within a day or so I got a call from one of Apple's developer relations manager who said my email to Jobs had made some kind of impact because Jobs forwarded the email to developer relations and told them to get on it. At some point Apple did meet with Newell, but I guess nothing came of it except that the project never could take off because of Valve's instance that anyone who wanted to port Half-Life 2 to the Mac had to advance $1 million to Valve. That's right, that's $1,000,000. That might be peanuts to someone like Valve, but no Mac publisher in their right mind would have given Valve that kind of money just for the rights to publish Half-Life 2 for the Mac.

EDIT: Money issue was noted by Koss66 in previous post. Sorry!
 
I want all people who take Valve's statements seriously to answer me to those questions:

Why the heck is Blizzard developing their games simultaneously on Macs and PC's and with the same, if not better performance on the Macs?

Macworld said:
What’s more, have a gander at Blizzard Entertainment, makers of the enormously popular game World of Warcraft. For years, Blizzard has kept Mac and PC development happening simultaneously, employing a small but talented group of Mac programmers who work on their games and keep them up to date, making sure to expose new Apple technology whenever it’s available.

Blizzard demonstrated World of Warcraft working as a Universal binary the same week that Apple introduced Intel-based Macs in January, 2006, for example, and was one of the first companies to employ support for multithreaded OpenGL, which boosts 3-D graphics performance on multicore Intel Macs.

2) Why on earth is Aspyr not complaining about Apple's support? I also remember saying that Glenda Adams is very pleased about apple's representatives on the gaming department. Apart from Valve, I haven't heard anyone complaining!

3)ID Software and Epic Games

Macworld said:
Compare this, if you will, to the work that Id Software and Epic Games do. Id and Epic both work with Mac game publishers (Aspyr Media and MacSoft, respectively) to bring their titles to the Macintosh. Id Software co-founder John Carmack has been known to talk with Steve Jobs in the past, and has certainly used his influence to make sure that Apple’s efforts developing OpenGL as Mac OS X’s core graphics technology don’t go to waste. What’s more, Id relies on the brain trust of Aspyr’s own internal game development studio to make sure that its games are well optimized for Mac OS X. Epic employs a very resourceful and enormously talented developer named Ryan Gordon who handles much of its Mac and Linux conversions.

2-3 People are enough to do a port from PC's to Macs! And you want things to GET SIMPLER? I'm sorry, but Valve speaks ********. Unless I hear complaints from OS X developers like Ryan Gordon, Glenda Adams, or any representative from Blizzard, I will not believe anything that Valve says.

It's true Apple isn't committed to game Devs as much as Microsoft, but Apple is already committed to developers in general, and that's enough for a game to be ported.

Anyone that disagrees please answer my questions before making any arguments.
 
I want all people who take Valve's statements seriously to answer me to those questions:

Why the heck is Blizzard developing their games simultaneously on Macs and PC's and with the same, if not better performance on the Macs?

you've obviously never played on both and compared. Windows performance on blizzard games is much much better.

Personally..even if valve or any other game company came out with a mac version of the game..i would install it in bootcamp anyways b\c the performance will likely be better.
 
you've obviously never played on both and compared. Windows performance on blizzard games is much much better.

Personally..even if valve or any other game company came out with a mac version of the game..i would install it in bootcamp anyways b\c the performance will likely be better.

Warcraft 3 performs better on my mac. And Wow performs better and more stable on both my G5 and my iMac than on PCs with the same specs.

I also haven't heard of anyone reaching level 70 on a computer 1GHz and nVidia GeForce 4 MX installed with 768 mbytes ram. My brother did, in an iMac G4.

Is wow supporting multithreaded OpenGL on PCs?
 
Does wow need to support multithreaded OpenGL on PC when it does so well in the Direct3D mode?

Warcraft 3 performs better on my mac. And Wow performs better and more stable on both my G5 and my iMac than on PCs with the same specs.

I also haven't heard of anyone reaching level 70 on a computer 1GHz and nVidia GeForce 4 MX installed with 768 mbytes ram. My brother did, in an iMac G4.

Is wow supporting multithreaded OpenGL on PCs?
 
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