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wonderspark

macrumors 68040
Feb 4, 2010
3,052
105
Oregon
I agree that it's great that Apple is getting more popular, but it would be perfect if it were more popular. There needs to be more hardware built for Macs to make it ideal. It bums me out that PC graphics cards are so much cheaper than Mac versions, or that some software made for both platforms contains more features on Windows versions than Mac versions. If Mac ever gets even with PCs, it will be a great day.
 

AppleScruff1

macrumors G4
Feb 10, 2011
10,026
2,949
Why? We finally have the best platform in consumer tech today, that's also becoming very popular - iconic, in fact.

This is an ideal situation.

Why? We've had the best platform in consumer tech for years, it's been iconic for almost two decades. The ideal situation has existed since 1995. Windows. Just following your logic.
 

roadbloc

macrumors G3
Aug 24, 2009
8,784
215
UK
They did. And in return consumers got SHAFTED with Wintel. And MS got their behinds sued - like a boss. LOL

Steve Jobs described the situation perfectly: for the most part, MS has earned their success . . . by foisting third-rate products and services on consumers.

Thankfully, those Wintel days are coming to a close, and right quick.

But Apple's computers remained for sale didn't they? And even when the iPhone is banned from a country, you say it won't effect a thing as the demand is there.

If Apple's computers were better than Wintel's stuff, why didn't they sell? Because according to you these lawsuits don't change a damn thing and the public will buy whatever the hell they want.

So what are you going to finally admit? Wintel were ahead with their technologies and made a better product for the consumers, or that lawsuits actually made a difference?

Your choice.
 

Liquinn

Suspended
Apr 10, 2011
3,016
57
Pirated software isn't a source of viruses, but it is a source for trojans. Just because you may not have been infected by one doesn't mean others haven't. It's been well-documented that pirated software can contain trojans.
In both OSX and windows?
 

You-Are-Pwned

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Mar 5, 2010
22
0
I realize that. I just hate having to fix it after *every* itunes update. It should ask just by principle or at least give us the ability to turn it off after the fact in the iTunes preferences. A sort-of software "etiquette" I guess. Every other legitimate program does that. I don't know why Apple feels that iTunes should not even offer the option to turn those startup items off.

Microsoft Office for Mac isn't also ideally made. Microsoft can't make a fully native program, because they are used to Net/C++, and Apple can't make one for Windows, because they are all in Cocoa.
 

ct2k7

macrumors G3
Aug 29, 2008
8,382
3,439
London
Microsoft Office for Mac isn't also ideally made. Microsoft can't make a fully native program, because they are used to Net/C++, and Apple can't make one for Windows, because they are all in Cocoa.

I don't think Office for Windows developers are the same as Office for Mac / MacBU developers. In fact, they're not.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,370
124
Los Angeles
I really, really don't understand why y'all are still engaging with *LTD* like he's going to have an epiphany or something. Whatever Apple does is golden and whatever anyone else does is trash. It's not logical, objective or reasonable but it is consistently *LTD* and I don't know why anyone would expect something different at this point.


Lethal
 

boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
6,386
7,634
I really, really don't understand why y'all are still engaging with *LTD* like he's going to have an epiphany or something. Whatever Apple does is golden and whatever anyone else does is trash. It's not logical, objective or reasonable but it is consistently *LTD* and I don't know why anyone would expect something different at this point.


Lethal

I don't do it to engage with him, I do it for the benefit of people who don't know how wrong he is. It's bad to let misinformation like that be treated as the truth. Unfortunately he usually doesn't post anything worthy of having his post deleted, so I try to correct him when I can.
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
I don't do it to engage with him, I do it for the benefit of people who don't know how wrong he is. It's bad to let misinformation like that be treated as the truth. Unfortunately he usually doesn't post anything worthy of having his post deleted, so I try to correct him when I can.

I don't think anyone, no matter how uneducated, thinks *LTD*'s post are actual objective information. He does a pretty good job of killing his own credibility, he's quite safe to ignore.
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
I don't think anyone, no matter how uneducated, thinks *LTD*'s post are actual objective information. He does a pretty good job of killing his own credibility, he's quite safe to ignore.

The "objective" facts tend to have a pro-Apple bias these days. I just parrot them back to you. Instead of shooting the messenger, open your eyes to what's going on in the industry. It's a far different world from a decade ago. The market and industry direction is so clear, so obvious, that it just screams at you. But you and a few others around here keep missing it. A few people on this site have serious issues with a) grasping reality, and/or b) accepting it. You'll find that I'm not one of them. But you're entitled to posting your thoughts as much as I am.

My information isn't objective, because the current industry and market situation has nothing to do with objectivity, and everything to do with a very unequal playing field, in which Apple occupies all the key positions. And you know what, MS is running (or rather, running in circles) to first base while the rest of the industry is rounding third. This is an ongoing trend with Ballmer's Microsoft.

But keep enjoying your fantasy world that gets torn down at the end of Apple's fiscal quarters. The disbelief, perplexity about the obvious, and all the abject envy displayed during those times is most amusing.
 
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boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
6,386
7,634
The "objective" facts tend to have a pro-Apple bias these days. I just parrot them back to you. Instead of shooting the messenger, open your eyes to what's going on in the industry. It's a far different world from a decade ago. The market and industry direction is so clear, so obvious, that it just screams at you. But you and a few others around here keep missing it. A few people on this site have serious issues with a) grasping reality, and/or b) accepting it. You'll find that I'm not one of them. But you're entitled to posting your thoughts as much as I am.

My information isn't objective, because the current industry and market situation has nothing to do with objectivity, and everything to do with a very unequal playing field, in which Apple occupies all the key positions. And you know what, MS is running (or rather, running in circles) to first base while the rest of the industry is rounding third. This is an ongoing trend with Ballmer's Microsoft.

But keep enjoying your fantasy world that gets torn down at the end of Apple's fiscal quarters. The disbelief, perplexity about the obvious, and all the abject envy displayed during those times is most amusing.

Do you understand what objectivity is? My guess is no. You don't have to be biased to report whats happening. In fact, it often happens that objectivity gives the whole truth. You, on the other hand, have an extreme bias against anything un-Apple, to the point of spreading blatant lies.
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
Do you understand what objectivity is? My guess is no. You don't have to be biased to report whats happening. In fact, it often happens that objectivity gives the whole truth. You, on the other hand, have an extreme bias against anything un-Apple, to the point of spreading blatant lies.

Did you really have to reply to him to point that out ? It's obvious to everyone. Just let it go, the guy will always have an answer and will always keep the threads going. You will never achieve anything by replying to him.
 

MorphingDragon

macrumors 603
Mar 27, 2009
5,159
6
The World Inbetween
I agree that it's great that Apple is getting more popular, but it would be perfect if it were more popular. There needs to be more hardware built for Macs to make it ideal. It bums me out that PC graphics cards are so much cheaper than Mac versions, or that some software made for both platforms contains more features on Windows versions than Mac versions. If Mac ever gets even with PCs, it will be a great day.

Macs use EFI, most companies still exclusively make VGABIOS cards. When EFI starts becoming standard cards will become cheapre/more avaliable.
 

roadbloc

macrumors G3
Aug 24, 2009
8,784
215
UK
Instead of shooting the messenger, open your eyes to what's going on in the industry.

Instead of continuously posting your Pro-Apple nonsense here, open your eyes to whats going on in this thread. We're on about why Windows is the most popular desktop OS, not how which way the market is going and how Apple fits into that, not how Ballmer is running Microsoft and defiantly not about fantasies that keep on being disproved by Apple's profits.

You need to get your head out of Apple's arse. Because you're beginning to turn ordinary discussions about (x) into raging arguments about how you think Apple are and have been the most relevant company in tech ever.

Can't you just have a normal discussion without spreading your pro-Apple bullcrap just once? There is a time and a place for it if you believe in it.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
The "objective" facts tend to have a pro-Apple bias these days. I just parrot them back to you.
It is pro-apple in some respects however you conveniently ignore the pro-windows slant in other areas. While the iPad and iPhone have made some inroads into the corporate sector, computers are still steadfastly windows.

Consumers by and large love the iPad but if you want to compare windows vs OSX as a platform, OSX is still considered a niche
osxmarketshare.jpg


(source of the graph http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/11/windows-7-closes-gap-with-xp-is-poised-to-steal-top-market-shar/)

Sure its growing which is great news but windows still represent 80% of the market and before you spout off the tired old retort of crap hardware flooding the market. Give the consumers some credit and their ability to, by and large decide what's a good product. While there are many computer makers that produce some questionable products, there are many that create quality computers running windows. Windows 7 in of itself is very stable, fast feature rich operating system. OSX is great, but that does not translate into windows being a POS.
 

ILikeTurtles

macrumors 6502
Feb 17, 2010
320
2
What does that even mean?

The fact of the matter is that Windows is a very solid platform, and that a lot of people are very content with it's offerings. That is why it is still a massive player in the desktop OS market.

Solid platform? Ha! Ask the owner of the company I work for how much he spends a year to employ an IT Dept just to keep the windows server and desktops running smoothly.

----------

But Apple's computers remained for sale didn't they? And even when the iPhone is banned from a country, you say it won't effect a thing as the demand is there.

If Apple's computers were better than Wintel's stuff, why didn't they sell? Because according to you these lawsuits don't change a damn thing and the public will buy whatever the hell they want.

So what are you going to finally admit? Wintel were ahead with their technologies and made a better product for the consumers, or that lawsuits actually made a difference?

Your choice.

Windows sold because the corporate "suits" who purchased them, knew very little about computers in general, and didn't want to know anything more about them. The old adage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" was (and for the most part still is) the mode of thinking in corporate America.

Hell, my boss still doesn't understand (regardless of how many times I've explained to him) that I can open a Word document on my Mac that he saved originally on his Windows.
 

belvdr

macrumors 603
Aug 15, 2005
5,945
1,372
Solid platform? Ha! Ask the owner of the company I work for how much he spends a year to employ an IT Dept just to keep the windows server and desktops running smoothly.

----------



Windows sold because the corporate "suits" who purchased them, knew very little about computers in general, and didn't want to know anything more about them. The old adage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" was (and for the most part still is) the mode of thinking in corporate America.

Hell, my boss still doesn't understand (regardless of how many times I've explained to him) that I can open a Word document on my Mac that he saved originally on his Windows.

When you deploy systems, they require maintenance, regardless of operating system.
 

boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
6,386
7,634
Solid platform? Ha! Ask the owner of the company I work for how much he spends a year to employ an IT Dept just to keep the windows server and desktops running smoothly.

Get him the same setup using OSX, I bet you it will cost the same to maintain and more to simply get it set up.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
When you deploy systems, they require maintenance, regardless of operating system.

We have at my shop, AS400s, Solaris boxes and of course Red Hat and I can easily say that my fellow IT folks spend a fair amount of time maintaining each platform. While most do not receive the same level of patches as the windows platform, they do require work.
 

burne

macrumors 6502
Jul 4, 2007
302
43
Haarlem, the Netherlands
Get him the same setup using OSX, I bet you it will cost the same to maintain and more to simply get it set up.

In case you've missed it, OS-X comes with most stuff one needs for an unix-server pre-installed.

Let me digress.

My current project is an application which is used to grant building permits. People enter their request on a website, and goverment officials process those requests via a back-end website or various exchange-protocols (ebXML, ESB, OSB etc..)

To host this application you'll need mysql, some sort of filer, openldap, a bunch of java application servers, mail and ftp-servers, web servers, HA-software and loadbalancers.

We host the application on some 40 linux-boxes (including development-, testing and acceptance-environments and a production-environment in two different data-centers.)

For the developers I made an installer which builds a tiny local version of the same environment. HA is the only thing I left out, since it has no impact on the environment and is superfluos.

OS-X comes with java, so I need only to add tomcat. It comes with mysql, so proper setup is all that's needed. It comes with LDAP. It comes with apache, postfix, a ftp-server. Another thing I needed was a custom compile of HA-proxy.

Took me about a working day to put the thing together. (For deploying an existing setup in a different environment..)

OS-X is as flexible and customizable as any UNIX, when you dive below the GUI.

Compare that to the test-software used by external consultants. They needed two weeks with two engineers to install their software. For various reasons they needed to reinstall their 8 windows machines some time later on (and they couldn't bill for the reinstall) and it took them two weeks of work once again.
 
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jtara

macrumors 68020
Mar 23, 2009
2,008
536
Well, since I was around and in the industry back then, I can offer a few random observations.

I did a lot of firmware development around the time that the Apple computer was first introduced (much of it using the same, 6502 chip) as well as quite a bit of development using IBM PCs. Never did anything with Macs back then, as it simply wasn't suitable for our purposes. I was living in Detroit, and so much of my work revolved around the auto industry - statistical quality control, simulation (on S-100 and PC) and a lot of factory floor automation, gauging, etc. (firmware on S-100 using boards loaded-up with PROMs, and on custom boards).

Apple (or, actually, Steve Wozniak, before the formation of Apple) picked a processor chip - the 6502 - from a fairly unknown manufacturer - MOS Technology, which at the time was primarily known as a second-source for Texas Instruments. The chip was revolutionary for a single reason - it's $25 price tag. A Motorola 6800 was close to $200, I don't think the 8080 was out yet, and the 8008 was also costly and needed a lot of support chips.

There's the first reason. There is no way that MOS Technology could have produced chips in the numbers needed for what would be the PC Revolution. They were too small.

In fact, I probably had a 6501 in my hands before Steve Wozniak did. I was working on a firmware project at the time - a controller for a self-serve gas pump - and we were using the Intel 4040 chip. When we heard about the $25 65xx that looked very attractive to us: an 8-bit chip with much of the system on a single chip, vs. a more expensive multi-chip 4040 set.

So, we arranged to visit the MOS Technology development and fab facilities in a converted knitting factory near Boston. We met with the chip designer, who had drawn the rough layout of the chip literally on his office wall. (On butcher paper or whatnot, not actually on the wall.) There is a blank spot on the original chip layout where the electrical outlet was on the wall. He needed to be able to plug in a lamp there, I kid you not.

We met with Chuck Peddle, who later developed the PET computer for Commodore. He gave us a tour of the fab area, we had a conference with a couple of their engineers, and then he showed us a prototype of the KIM-1 - the development board for the 6501/2 - on a bench in the lab area. (The only difference between the two was one pin assignment. The 6501 was pin-compatible with the Motorola 6800. The 6502 was not.) We returned with a single 6501 prototype chip with the metal lid soldered on (they needed to be individually probed for test at this stage), and a 9-track tape with an assembler written in Fortran that I deposited at my University's tape library, and then installed the assembler on their MTS timeshare system. I wirewrapped a prototype system and we rented an ASR-33 teletype and modem to access the timeshare system and puch paper tapes with object code.

Clearly, MOS Technology was willing to talk to anyone and everyone at that point. Intel offered us no such coddling. We were two people working for the owner of a small local chain of discount gas stations. Wozniak didn't get the royal treatment we got, though I'm sure he would have had he made-up a company name, asked, and paid for a plane ticket to Boston. I think he bought his chip off the floor of WESCON, which was the first public sale of the chips - a bit of a publicity stunt for MOS Technology.

Anyway, the chip was way cheap and easy to work with. We had an 8-bit chip that was more affordable than the 4-banger we'd been using. But if Wozniak or Jobs had visited the factory, as we did - and had realized what was coming - I doubt they would have gone with the 6502. MOS Technology just wasn't big enough.

It was fine for our purposes, though, and we were assured that we could obtain the small quantities that we needed.

I did some more work with the 6502, then 6800, but increasingly it was Intel chips that were used. The auto industry couldn't work with anybody smaller than Motorola, and they did like their chips for on-board stuff. Factory automation was almost all Intel. 6502 wasn't ever a thought in the industry.

Bottom line is the 6502 wasn't the right chip for the PC Revolution. It couldn't be. It was easy for hobbyist Wozniak to obtain and use. But, somehow, as his sideline hobby turned into a business, the chip choice seems to have never been re-thought until many, many years later. Apple had to go through two painful chip changes - first to the Motorola 68000 when increasing memory demands made them go to a 16-bit processor and it finally became clear that MOS Technology (later Rockwell) couldn't deliver the quantities needed, nor could they keep up technology-wise - then, later to Intel.

Also working against Apple was their "closed" system. First, they moved to the PC bus, then to Intel processors. But they were also "incompatible compatible". First, because they were using a different processor chip - and then because they choose to bypass the common "BIOS" implementation. Sure you could buy third-party video cards and whatnot. But the manufacturer had to load alternative firmware on the board, and only a few manufacturers had the resources and willingness to do so.

Surpisingly, I don't think Apple reached-out to hobbyists the way that Microsoft did, even though they were grounded in the Homebrew Computer Club. I was a co-founder of a Detroit-area hobbyist computer club (SEMCO) and Bill Gates spoke at our meetings several times. (I'm assuming Rick Inatome - at the time co-founder (with his dad, Joe) of then Detroit-local Inacomp, which later become Computer City and then merged into CompUSA - initially made the connection.)

I gather Gates did this often when he was traveling. Not only did he speak - in a dull, yet somehow still passionate monotone - but he eagerly took questions afterwards - until every last one was answered. (He was as bad a speaker as Inatome was good...) I don't remember if we ever had Jobs or Wozniak, but here's the takeaway - I remember Gates. He was genuinely interested in feedback and wanted to hear from anyone and everyone who was using Microsoft products. He was smart enough to know that it was worth his while to talk to a room full of hobbyists loaded-up with auto company engineers.

Apple never did that kind of outreach. Their appeal was limited. They could never have gotten into banks, manufacturing companies, etc. etc. that had specialized requirements that couldn't be satisfied on Apple's limited platform, and they couldn't deliver the needed quantities.

The turn-around from Apple's initially-limited world view has been brilliant, of course. I hope I've been able to give some insight into some of the reasons why it was IBM and Microsoft, though, that has dominated the general PC market for most of the time since the beginning of the PC Revolution.
 
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Tinyluph

macrumors regular
Dec 27, 2011
191
0
I'd be interested in seeing the marketshare number for operating systems used by actual consumers and not including businesses or schools which carry tons of cheap windows machines. I have a feeling OS X is growing at a larger rate in the consumer subset alone than is being reported.

But I go to college campus so maybe my perception is just completely skewed. I don't know.
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
I'd be interested in seeing the marketshare number for operating systems used by actual consumers and not including businesses or schools which carry tons of cheap windows machines. I have a feeling OS X is growing at a larger rate in the consumer subset alone than is being reported.

But I go to college campus so maybe my perception is just completely skewed. I don't know.

Macs are outpacing the rest of the industry in growth. It's been this way for several years now.

Then there's this:

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/14384386/

In which case Apple is in the lead.
 
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