Will Apple ever build the 17 (or 16.5) inch MBP? [Merged]

[Painter2002]

The "relevance" was that it was argued the 17" had no benefits over the 15" available at the same time. This was then twisted to somehow compare the pre-retina 17" to the retina 15", to justify a position of 'the 17" had no advantages'

I understand the points you are making, but even comparing the non-retina 15 and 17” models have no bearing on what a present day 17” mode would offer. You really can’t use that as a present day argument of the two sizes.

Odds are there would be little to no difference on a current day model between a 15” and a 17” designed MacBooks Pro other than size.

Of course all of that is speculation, and we could be proven wildly wrong by Apple, but when was the last time Apple proved everyone wrong on the ideas of what Apple was working on behind the curtain? I’m thinking it’s been a bit.
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If we are talking about feasible future MacBooks, I could potentially see them splitting the difference with a custom 16 inch rounded-corner panel if they follow iPhone/ iPad aesthetics for the next redesign. Basically with that you'd get native @2x 1680x1050 resolution (3360x2100 physical pixels) and 1920x1200 might be a little bit more comfortable to use as a scaled resolution. Such a machine would have virtually the same footprint as the current 15".

I really hope they don't go to a round cornered panel on a MacBook Pro design. Should it would look cool, but that is rather impractical in my eyes. I like nice square edges on my monitors.

 

[Stephen.R]

You really can’t use that as a present day argument of the two sizes.

If you read where that conversation started: I wasn't. I responded to someone who said s/he didn't get the point of the 17" because "it's the same as a 15". It was specifically not related to any potential future model - it was about the appeal of the ones that were sold 8 years ago over their slightly smaller brothers/sisters.

when was the last time Apple proved everyone wrong on the ideas of what Apple was working on behind the curtain

2018 Mac mini? My understanding is that everyone expected an updated iMac and maybe a bump for the mini, keeping it as the cheap basic computer it used to be.

 

[Cashmonee]

You should let the current vendors know their products market was dead 8 years ago. You can buy FW800, USB3, eSATA, and even SSD's still for ExpressCard slots.


The "relevance" was that it was argued the 17" had no benefits over the 15" available at the same time. This was then twisted to somehow compare the pre-retina 17" to the retina 15", to justify a position of 'the 17" had no advantages'

I am sure their lack of sales have already let them know. Likely they are simply selling down "New Old Stock." I mean do you honestly think ExpressCard was ever a relevant feature? It lasted what, 4 years before manufacturers stopped putting it in consumer computers? I have to admit, you are the first person I have ever come across to defend ExpressCard so vigorously. It was a standard that ceased being useful almost immediately upon release. A lot of hype and promise that ultimately amounted to a super niche product because its most common uses were supplanted by built-in chipsets and USB 2.0 and then 3.0. Anyway, this is drifting off topic.

The fact of the matter is that the 2011 17" and 15" were pretty similar machines and the differences were minor, and that includes the ExpressCard. I agree with the others that when the 2012 came, Apple probably saw slow 17" sales and had no real way of bumping the resolution enough to make that 17" Retina. On top of that things like ThunderBolt and USB 3 made the only other advantage (ExpressCard) pretty pointless. I think the argument being made was that the 2011's were very similar and the minor advantages the 17" enjoyed were eliminated in 2012 (or in the case of resolution not possible) making the 17" not a feasible product.

 

[smetvid]

From a cooling perspective it might be wise if they did bring back the 17”. I still have a 2011 17” and it was so much more than just a bit more resolution. Having a larger physical size is great for those with less than stellar eyesight but still need enough screen space for more content.

Back then the 17” was a huge beast but it would no longer have to be like that and they could make it smaller and much lighter. It could also have other great incentives over the 15” for Apple to market.

1. Better battery life due to a larger battery.
2. Easier to see screen without sacrificing physical real estate.
3. Extra TB3 ports or the return of the SD card slot. I use the SD slot on a 2014 and 2015 MBP all the time. Having 6 TB3 ports would be great for those that need to hook up more hardware.
4. Better cooling and airflow. The 15” i9 suffers a bit here and a 17” design could have potentially superior cooling to make the performance of the i9 better.
5. First MBP with a 4k display. Retina version of 1920x1080. Some people would be all over that. Especially the 4k video content creators.
6. Superior speaker design due to the extra space.

 

[Cashmonee]

From a cooling perspective it might be wise if they did bring back the 17”. I still have a 2011 17” and it was so much more than just a bit more resolution. Having a larger physical size is great for those with less than stellar eyesight but still need enough screen space for more content.

Back then the 17” was a huge beast but it would no longer have to be like that and they could make it smaller and much lighter. It could also have other great incentives over the 15” for Apple to market.

1. Better battery life due to a larger battery.
2. Easier to see screen without sacrificing physical real estate.
3. Extra TB3 ports or the return of the SD card slot. I use the SD slot on a 2014 and 2015 MBP all the time. Having 6 TB3 ports would be great for those that need to hook up more hardware.
4. Better cooling and airflow. The 15” i9 suffers a bit here and a 17” design could have potentially superior cooling to make the performance of the i9 better.
5. First MBP with a 4k display. Retina version of 1920x1080. Some people would be all over that. Especially the 4k video content creators.
6. Superior speaker design due to the extra space.

I agree with you, but a lot of what you say is contradictory. In order to get a larger battery, more cooling, more I/O, better speakers, you would have to increase the size. But you also say it would be smaller and lighter. Those things don't all go together. It could certainly be smaller than the old 17", but would still have to be significantly larger than the 15" to accommodate those things. I believe Apple sees that as a non-starter. I think the only way they release a larger screen is if the overall footprint is the same or very similar to the current 15" which would then mean most of the advantages you allude to would not happen. I think this is why we have not seen a new 17".

 

[smetvid]

I agree with you, but a lot of what you say is contradictory. In order to get a larger battery, more cooling, more I/O, better speakers, you would have to increase the size. But you also say it would be smaller and lighter. Those things don't all go together. It could certainly be smaller than the old 17", but would still have to be significantly larger than the 15" to accommodate those things. I believe Apple sees that as a non-starter. I think the only way they release a larger screen is if the overall footprint is the same or very similar to the current 15" which would then mean most of the advantages you allude to would not happen. I think this is why we have not seen a new 17".

I meant slightly smaller or thinner. Of course the screen area would still need to accommodate a 17” screen but you can make other aspects slightly smaller much like the iPad has been made thinner and lighter over the years. I had an iPad 1 and compared to the latest iPads it’s a boat anchor and just feels larger and heavier. The same is true of the 15” MBP over the years. The 2016 design feels smaller and lighter than the older designs from 2011 even though they both accommodate a 15” screen.

 

[theluggage]

Literally all I meant by "simple" was "people understand a cable".

...but people don't understand USB-C cables that can have different capabilities despite being physically identical:

I have a "spare" USB-C charge cable because I didn't realise it was only 2.0 speeds until after it had shipped

QED.

Even in 2011 ExpressCard was essentially dead,

Only by the Tim Cook definition of "dead". In 2011, Expresscard was the only game in town if you wanted PCIe-speed connectivity on a laptop. In 2011, Thunderbolt was brand new and most Thunderbolt peripherals were either (a) very expensive, (b) vapourware or (c) very expensive vapourware - and the cheaper options lacked the daisychain port so, on a MBP, they'd block the only external display connector. The 2011 MBPs didn't even have USB3 (I used my ExpressCard slot to add that later).

By the 2010s, larger widescreen monitors with 1080p were becoming more mainstream and more affordable, making docking a MacBook Pro more viable.

Nope. there were reasonably affordable 24" 1920x1200 displays long before that - yes 1080p was cheaper, but it was a downgrade unless you specifically wanted it for watching 16:9 video. The 17" MBP offered the same 1920x1200 in a portable package. On a desk, I used my MBP17 docked with a second 1920x1200 24" display, and the 17" screen was large enough to make that an effective dual-display system. Away from the desk... I've carried my MBP17 on flights (I've seen people using them on flights, although that's against my religion), I've carried it on a bike. Do that with an external display (...the unintentional, but useful ability to fit a second HD in the optical bay helps reduce the box count, too). True, if you only need to check your mail and knock up some bullet lists in Powerpoint while on the road, a 13" is easier to carry, but if you want to do app or web development etc. on the road, the extra screen estate makes it far more productive.

The 15" already have the fastest Core processors and I believe the fastest AMD GPU.

A 17" would have space for better cooling which would probably improve sustained performance and noise level (if not one-off benchmarks). Still, the big difference between 17" and 15" is always going to be extra screen size "on the move".

So I think this argument is getting out of context a bit. We all know that if Apple were to make 17" MacBook Pro now, it would have the same USB-C ports as the 15" MacBook Pro.

Apple is no more likely to actually make a 17" MacBook Pro than they are to bring back MagSafe and the glowing Apple logo, so frankly our fantasy retina MBP 17" can have whatever the heck features we like (including MagSafe and a glowing Apple logo ).

The only constraint is that the number of full featured TB3/USB-C ports is likely to be capped at 4 by the availability of PCIe lanes - but a 17" might have space for a couple of USB A ports, HDMI and Ethernet on top of that, which would be welcomed by many. (Interesting to note that Apple didn't drop USB-A or Ethernet from the iMac Pro or the Mac Mini).

Still, the idea of having a full 4k display (or, even better, a 16:10 screen with 3840x2400) in a portable package would be attractive in its own right - I don't think you need to add cake and unicorns.

 

[turbineseaplane]

To answer the original question… Probably not… But I sure wish they would.

My first Mac laptop was a 17 inch and I miss it to this very day.

I’d like to have a laptop so I can take it all with me and travel if need be, but generally speaking I just like to use it around the house in multiple locations and so the largest screen possible on the laptop is desirable to me, especially now that I’ve gotten a lot older and my eyes aren’t quite as wonderful as they once were.

 

[maflynn]

My uneducated guess is no. I'm of the mindset that they originally killed it off because it wasn't making as much money to justify producing it.

While it seems the laptop market isn't shrinking as much as it was in prior years I don't see them rolling out new models. Their 15" laptop can easily exceed 4,000 dollars, where would a 17" laptop fit in? I would say the price point would start off at 3,00 and go up, and I don't think they'd sell many of those at that price point.

 

[Fishrrman]

60 posts in, and the answer is still "no"...

 

[Cashmonee]

Only by the Tim Cook definition of "dead". In 2011, Expresscard was the only game in town if you wanted PCIe-speed connectivity on a laptop. In 2011, Thunderbolt was brand new and most Thunderbolt peripherals were either (a) very expensive, (b) vapourware or (c) very expensive vapourware - and the cheaper options lacked the daisychain port so, on a MBP, they'd block the only external display connector. The 2011 MBPs didn't even have USB3 (I used my ExpressCard slot to add that later).

By 2010, nearly all manufacturers stopped offering ExpressCard slots and relegated them to a few business oriented machines. In 2012 the MBP had USB 3 and Thunderbolt which made ExpressCard useless. It was definitely dead by 2011 by anyone's definition. And again, that assumes it ever was a thing which is pretty debatable. Hell, as I have looked for information to help refresh my memory it is clear that ExpressCard barely even existed. Threads from the time even refer to trying to find use cases for it.

I do agree that a 17" could offer the possibility of better cooling, but these days, any 17" will be a small as possible negating nearly all of that potential. I think the market has clearly spoken. While there may be room for a larger screen in a similar footprint to a 15" machine, there is no market for desktop replacements. At least not one sufficiently large for Apple interested in.

 

[retta283]

I wasn't a Mac user back in the day of the 17 inch MBP, but I do recall seeing a fair amount of them and wanting one pretty badly at the time. I regret not getting one.

Any chance Apple will build the 17 again? I'd buy it.

I doubt it. Apple doesn't care about the pro market anymore, and the 17" was a niche device back in the day anyway...

 

[Falhófnir]

And according to Kuo, the 16” pro is happening (and this year ) just like that...

I understand the points you are making, but even comparing the non-retina 15 and 17” models have no bearing on what a present day 17” mode would offer. You really can’t use that as a present day argument of the two sizes.

Odds are there would be little to no difference on a current day model between a 15” and a 17” designed MacBooks Pro other than size.

Of course all of that is speculation, and we could be proven wildly wrong by Apple, but when was the last time Apple proved everyone wrong on the ideas of what Apple was working on behind the curtain? I’m thinking it’s been a bit.
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I really hope they don't go to a round cornered panel on a MacBook Pro design. Should it would look cool, but that is rather impractical in my eyes. I like nice square edges on my monitors.

I’m neutral, I don’t think it would impact my workflow too much and it would be nice to have a slightly larger screen in the same body - I can see why a lot would dislike it though.

 

[fokmik]

Yes, no 17" but an 16 or 16.5" is happening

 

[maflynn]

Whelp, if the rumors are true, then color me surprised and wrong. I was pretty adamant that we'd never see a 17" MBP.

 

[0989382]

Apple won't. Even Dell and HP who can afford to sell bad models only have a small number of 17" offerings, reflecting the lack of mass market for it

 

[Marhowl]

You are welcome to tell me I am full of cr*p

However,

In multiple online places since this morning, as a reaction to the recent Ming-Chi Kuo's prognosis, I have been noticing people getting their hopes high about a new 16-16.5", that will be a generally larger computer, perhaps even thicker, with multiple returning ports..

There are a few reasons I think this will not happen

Regarding the display size. The current 15" inch MacBook Pro is actually 15.4". They can totally fit a 16" or 16.1" panel in there by making the bezels thinner. In fact, I was kind of hoping / expecting this to happen in 2016, with 13.3" becoming a 14". The might be able to fit even the 16.5" there are rumors about.

Apple will most likely not take a step back when it comes to design. That would be like admitting they have made a mistake (Although that's what they did with the 2013 Pro). They will not make the "new" MacBook Pro thicker

The "new" MacBook Pro may not be all that "new" anyway. This is connected to the screen size. They can still use the same chassis as the 2016, 2017 and 2018 models and fit a display with thinner bezels in the there.

Besides, it would not be coherent with their update cycle. They change the design roughly every four years. They changed it it in 2008, then 2012 and then 2016. The next significant redesign may not come until March / June 2021.

...

Like I said. Challenge me. I might learn something new. Who knows what will happen. I might end up being surprised.

 

[tim1000]

Whelp, if the rumors are true, then color me surprised and wrong. I was pretty adamant that we'd never see a 17" MBP.

I guess now is a bad time to buy a MacBook Pro

 

[maflynn]

I guess now is a bad time to buy a MacBook Pro

There's many ways to answer that, but given the unknown, it may be safer for you to hold off. Its still a rumor, but if you can wait then may be better off.

 

[Stephen.R]

They change the design roughly every four years. They changed it it in 2008, then 2012 and then 2016

The next significant redesign may not come until March / June 2021.

That's some interesting math you've got there.

 

[baypharm]

60 posts in, and the answer is still "no"...

You’re funny....how about a 16.5 inch MBP instead?

 

[Falhófnir]

You are welcome to tell me I am full of cr*p

However,

In multiple online places since this morning, as a reaction to the recent Ming-Chi Kuo's prognosis, I have been noticing people getting their hopes high about a new 16-16.5", that will be a generally larger computer, perhaps even thicker, with multiple returning ports..

There are a few reasons I think this will not happen

Regarding the display size. The current 15" inch MacBook Pro is actually 15.4". They can totally fit a 16" or 16.1" panel in there by making the bezels thinner. In fact, I was kind of hoping / expecting this to happen in 2016, with 13.3" becoming a 14". The might be able to fit even the 16.5" there are rumors about.

Apple will most likely not take a step back when it comes to design. That would be like admitting they have made a mistake (Although that's what they did with the 2013 Pro). They will not make the "new" MacBook Pro thicker

The "new" MacBook Pro may not be all that "new" anyway. This is connected to the screen size. They can still use the same chassis as the 2016, 2017 and 2018 models and fit a display with thinner bezels in the there.

Besides, it would not be coherent with their update cycle. They change the design roughly every four years. They changed it it in 2008, then 2012 and then 2016. The next significant redesign may not come until March / June 2021.

...

Like I said. Challenge me. I might learn something new. Who knows what will happen. I might end up being surprised.

As far as the 16" goes, 17" computers seem to be having something of a renaissance across the industry as a whole, largely down to more compact body sizes with thinner bezels, and I guess intel's 8th gen CPUs not keeping to their TDPs as well as previous generations managed (17" bodies allow more space for cooling and spreading heat generating components out). I would guess this is Apple reacting to this in their own way. As for exactly what form it will take, as above I can envision a rounded corner iPad Pro style design at 3360x2100 physical resolution, not sure on the exact diagonal size. Some might not like it, but I think at least it's better than lopping the corners off the 15.4" screen and making the body of that computer correspondingly smaller.

One thing I am surprised about is the lack of mention of a 14" smaller pro (indeed the deliberate mention it will still be 13" with 32GB RAM) - a lot of Apple's competitors are beginning to offer low end dGPUs in their 13" class computers and I don't see that Apple will be able to follow suit in the current compact chassis. I would have thought this would be something they would be working on as well. Maybe next year (as with when they introduced the 13" retina machine later than the 15")?

 

[PeterJP]

One thing I am surprised about is the lack of mention of a 14" smaller pro (indeed the deliberate mention it will still be 13" with 32GB RAM)

I was surprised by this as well. I would expect the 13.3" to be upgraded to 14" as well. If Apple did a redesigned chassis for the 15.4", narrowing the bezels to fit a 16-16.5" screen, it would be strange if they kept the 13.3" as-is. It would feel like the old MBA: huge bezels and an outdated look. BTW, if you take the same proportional scale-up from 15.4 to 16-16.5, then the 13.3 would become 13.8-14.25".
The 32GB for the 13" sounds good, though. After a few years of being underwhelmed, I'm getting enthusiastic about the MBPs again. Last year was a good upgrade, let's hope for a spectacular redesign this year.

 

[Falhófnir]

I was surprised by this as well. I would expect the 13.3" to be upgraded to 14" as well. If Apple did a redesigned chassis for the 15.4", narrowing the bezels to fit a 16-16.5" screen, it would be strange if they kept the 13.3" as-is. It would feel like the old MBA: huge bezels and an outdated look. BTW, if you take the same proportional scale-up from 15.4 to 16-16.5, then the 13.3 would become 13.8-14.25".
The 32GB for the 13" sounds good, though. After a few years of being underwhelmed, I'm getting enthusiastic about the MBPs again. Last year was a good upgrade, let's hope for a spectacular redesign this year.

Yeah I can only assume they want to introduce this as a new 'ultra premium' model commanding a significant price premium this year, before rolling it out to fully replace the 15" line next year, at which point they might also unveil a smaller ~14" variant. Definitely more exciting news than we've been getting as late!

 

[Cashmonee]

Whelp, if the rumors are true, then color me surprised and wrong. I was pretty adamant that we'd never see a 17" MBP.

I wouldn't say you are wrong. It sounds like this is a replacement for the 15" and will likely be the same size with smaller bezels. I do not think this signals Apple releasing another laptop in the line to sell alongside the 13" and 15".

I guess now is a bad time to buy a MacBook Pro

That is tough to say. Kuo has a decent track record, and has been better lately. Having said that, I also thought he stopped being an Apple analyst. In any event, while his track record is good, the details are often not accurate including timing. So while there is a very good chance of the 15" being replaced by a 16" or 16.5", there is no guarantee it happens in the summer or fall or even this year. So as always, if you can wait then wait, but if you need a laptop now, get one now. We have no idea when this would launch, so the wait could be long.