Will Apple Silicon Macs become slower with software updates like iOS devices? (Slower over time & lack of upgradability = more e-waste)

[ahurst]

Agreed. Deficient RAM is the primary cause of slowdown over time. It's engineered that way otherwise you wouldn't upgrade as often.

That probably has less to do with deliberate engineering and more to do with newer software being designed for more RAM in mind.

The rate of growth in base RAM sizes has slowed a lot over the past decade though, so increasing RAM demands in the future should be less of a concern than it used to be:

EDIT: To clarify, the above graph is for base RAM sizes for every separate Mac SKU introduced from 1984 to 2022. Presumably a plot for PCs during the same timeframe would look similar, but it's a lot harder to find all that data in one place. Also, please note that the Y-axis is log-scaled, because otherwise it's really hard to visualize.

 

[Freeangel1]

Generally Macs age better than PC's because of software optimization and drivers and with the new M1 I don't see this trend changing. The only exception would be any Mac with 8gb Ram which is too low for any modern system in my opinion.

I don't agree with this Statement.
Both BIG SUR and MONTEREY have ballooned and bloated to 12.5GB in size downloaded.
Windows 11 Pro and Windows 10 Pro are around 5GB in size.
On Most PC's with at least 8 to 16 GB or ram, an SSD and a 5 year old Intel or AMD Processor Windows 10 and 11 run just fine. No slow down. TPM 2.0 requirement needs to be hacked to install Windows 11.


So Windows PC's do AGE WELL and many parts are repairable and replaceable.
UNLIKE APPLE SILICON MACS.

 

[Technerd108]

I don't agree with this Statement.
Both BIG SUR and MONTEREY have ballooned and bloated to 12.5GB in size downloaded.
Windows 11 Pro and Windows 10 Pro are around 5GB in size.
On Most PC's with at least 8 to 16 GB or ram, an SSD and a 5 year old Intel or AMD Processor Windows 10 and 11 run just fine. No slow down. TPM 2.0 requirement needs to be hacked to install Windows 11.


So Windows PC's do AGE WELL and many parts are repairable and replaceable.
UNLIKE APPLE SILICON MACS.

So drivers that are never updated by OEM's don't affect performance? Your argument is because MacOS download for the OS is bigger it is bloated yet PC's come with tons of bloatware (unless you get a Microsoft Surface device) which of course doesn't affect performance either. Tell me how many OEM's for windows optimize windows for their hardware?? None of them do because they make money selling hardware not optimizing your device so you can keep it longer.

How many OEMS-cough Lenovo, Dell, HP to name a few solder ram and some even do so with SSD's. More and more OEM's in Windows laptops use more and more non serviceable parts. It is a trend most manufacturers are following. You can't replace CPU's or graphics cards on a laptop so the best you can do is replace an ssd which RAM is a major limiting factor is the useful life of a laptop not an SSD? I can't remember the last non gaming Windows laptop I bought with user serviceable RAM-it has been several years.

In a Mac you have no bloatware and software is specifically optimized for the hardware. You have no problems with unsecure or unsigned drivers or drivers that get outdated after a year. Apple Silicon will age a lot better than an Intel or AMD CPU because they have been specifically designed for my MacBook whereas Intel and AMD are selling stripped down versions of server CPU/APU's which are not custom made for Laptops.

But don't agree. Keep your PC and enjoy it. I don't use my Mac for Data science???

 

[leman]

I don't agree with this Statement.
Both BIG SUR and MONTEREY have ballooned and bloated to 12.5GB in size downloaded.
Windows 11 Pro and Windows 10 Pro are around 5GB in size.

What does download size have to do with performance? Let’s also not forget that modern macOS ships code for multiple architectures.

 

[leman]

This is one of my biggest concerns with Apple Silicon and the data we have suggests this may be the case.

What data are you referring to?

iOS devices are notorious for becoming slower with each year's major software update.

Are they? I have not seen any substantiation of this claim. A bit of personal anecdote - I usually keep my iPhones for four or five years before updating and I haven’t noticed any slowdowns with updates. I think this myth comes from the earlier iPhone days where hardware would evolve very quickly (you would get a 2x performance improvement in two or three generations), and the software was designed to take advantage of the capabilities of the new phones rather then old ones.

For example, my iPad mini 4 is able to run the latest iPadOS 15, but it's so slow now that it is almost not usable.

Weird, since my old first-gen iPad Pro runs 15 just fine. But still, I am not surprised if your Mini feels a bit slow, current A14 iPads are 450% faster than your iPad Mini 4 in single-core alone! Of course modern application thst are designed and tested on newer CPUs won’t run optimally on A8/A9

This is not the case with Intel Macs. Many people are using Intel Macs that are several years old that still work great. In fact, my 2013 Mac Pro desktop actually feels faster on the latest Monterey than it used to.

That’s probably because Intel made almost no progress in performance in a couple of years. The 2013 Haswell Mac laptops have single-core GB of around 800-900, the 2019 Coffee Lake ones around 1110-1200. That’s only 50% improvement in half a decade, and a lot of it comes from faster RAM.

A better approach is adopting a modular design like the current Mac Pro desktop that is able to be upgraded over time.

How would you imagine that working with an integrated approach to system design Apple has adopted? Sure, they can go modular. But wouldn’t it mean that you’d have to replace all the internal parts when upgrading? How exactly would that be better for user experience.

 

[AlixSPQR]

I am running Big Sur on an unsupported Mac mini Late 2012 and I don't experience any degraded performance at all. I have maxed out RAM, and I have an SSD as a boot device, of course. I don't know if anything similar will be possible to execute in the future with an  Silicon mac. Will you be able to modify it, like you can today thanks to OCLP? Perhaps, perhaps not.

 

[Bodhitree]

That’s probably because Intel made almost no progress in performance in a couple of years. The 2013 Haswell Mac laptops have single-core GB of around 800-900, the 2019 Coffee Lake ones around 1110-1200. That’s only 50% improvement in half a decade, and a lot of it comes from faster RAM.

Exactly, and the result of that was that machines from 2013 are still perfectly capable today. I think it will be the same with M1 Macs, starting from a GB of 1650 they will be very capable of lasting a decade even with successive generations of the M series getting 20-25% boosts. Do you see any OS-level features which might consume a big chunk of CPU power coming up?

 

[satcomer]

I believe no! Clear your Internet cache in your browser! The get something like free Onyx and let reboot your Mac about once every 3-4 months! Plus I’m an original Mac OS X Beta tester and the upgraded only once to the new version! That’s how I always run things on Mac OS! I’m a firm believer only keeping a Mac for 2-3 years! This way I can always stay up to date!

 

[foggygray]

Except for the Mac Pro Intel Macs are as upgradeable as the Apple Silicon Macs so how is that an argument?

 

[leman]

Exactly, and the result of that was that machines from 2013 are still perfectly capable today.

That’s one way of putting it. Another one would be: machines from 2019 were barely faster than those of 2013

I think it will be the same with M1 Macs, starting from a GB of 1650 they will be very capable of lasting a decade even with successive generations of the M series getting 20-25% boosts. Do you see any OS-level features which might consume a big chunk of CPU power coming up?

It’s not as much about CPU power but cPU latency. There are two main types of performance: throughout and latency. As CPUs get faster in the “proper” sence, i.e. they get quicker at doing individual tasks and not just increasing overall throughout by adding more cores, you can do more complex stuff while still shipping responsive apps. I am not aware of any current software trends that would require more performance going forward, a füllt, current site are trends aim to reduce latency.

But M-serious are probably going to get faster going forward. Let’s see what M2 brings.

 

[darngooddesign]

One major difference is that you can roll back and install the previous MacOS if the new OS is too resource intensive.

With most Macs, you haven't been able to upgrade the CPU which leaves the RAM and SSD. The SSD is already lightning fast so there wouldn't really be any really performance gains to be had by upgrading it so that leaves RAM. Most people don't benefit from more than 16GB in day to day tasks, so assuming you bought a Mac with 16GB, and if you know you need 32 or 64, why are you only getting 16GB, what upgrading do you think you could do to keep up with a more demanding OS?

 

[yitwail]

I'll add one additional observation to the excellent points already made about RAM. ssd size also matters, because as it fills up, it becomes slower, and the smaller the ssd, the sooner it will slow down. And if RAM is also low, then it compounds the problem because swapping will slow down.

 

[polyphenol]

A better approach is adopting a modular design like the current Mac Pro desktop that is able to be upgraded over time.

Not entirely convinced.

But I would welcome well-engineered modularity in two places.

First, data storage. The ability to take out the data storage device (whatever technology) would be of great benefit when considering things like repairs. Drop out the storage, send the device to be mended, get it back, put storage back in. Also, might allow upgrade to next gen machine and just slot in my existing storage.

Of course, Time Machine and other backups should make this fairly straightforward anyway. But they do take time.

Second, battery replacement should be trivial. Like it was on my Galaxy S2.

 

[sharif44k]

Okay, I hope y'all are right about it being due to the RAM. iPad mini 4 has 2GB of RAM only. I remember iPhone 5S also became very slow over time. It has 1 GB of RAM only. So if this is correct, always configure an Apple Silicon Mac with the most RAM offered if you want performance to remain good over time.

When I buy a Mac, I generally try to prioritize RAM upgrades over things like a little better CPU and Storage. Fast external storage is now affordable and .2 ghz more CPU upgrades intel days weren’t worth too much. Now with M1, however, the choice is interesting for CPU as it’s not about single core speed increase, but more CPU and GPU cores. So I guess upgrade options should be balancing based on your needs and budgets. I think for most people, 32GB RAM with a M1 Pro should give enough longevity. 64GB or more with high end CPU (coming soon) for those pros who need extra power based on their workflows (eg. 3D rendering or game design).

 

[darngooddesign]

Second, battery replacement should be trivial. Like it was on my Galaxy S2.

My 2008 15" MBP was the last generation of MBP to have a removable battery and I forgot what a clever and simple mechanism it has. That being said I will take the larger battery, and its subsequently better battery life, in my new 16" in exchange for a process which takes a little longer. The new Mac laptops are better now that Apple is using the MBA's adhesive pull tabs, instead of the "glue" on previous ones, so replacing my MBP's battery should be a relatively easy thing to do. But it's something which only needs to be done every four or so years.

 

[PsykX]

Processors nowadays are extremely fast and the tasks they accomplish haven't evolved that much in the last 10 years (except AI stuff of course).

Being "slower with software updates" is something that has made me cringe in the past (I'm looking at you, iPhone 3GS), but it's not so true anymore.
Take my old iPhone 6S for example. Okay, it's not as snappy as my iPhone 12, but honestly? I don't really notice any lag and it's gone from iOS 9 all the way to iOS 15. It's now 6.5 years old !

I would be more concerned regarding the GPU, and a little bit regarding the memory.
If you take a 16 GB option Apple Silicon and you don't ever want to game on your Mac, then your computer is good for at least another 10 years, easily, even if Apple decides not to support the software anymore in 7 years.

 

[Fishrrman]

Question:
"Will Apple Silicon Macs become slower with software updates like iOS devices? (Slower over time & lack of upgradability = more e-waste)"

Answer:
Yes.

 

[IJBrekke]

One major difference is that you can roll back and install the previous MacOS if the new OS is too resource intensive.

Just here to re-emphasize this point. There’s plenty of evidence of older iOS devices still running as-new if their software is never upgraded. On MacOS, you can always downgrade the software if/when things stop working well.

 

[macfacts]

Intel Macs do this too though. I don’t think there’s a device that doesn’t slow down with updates. Just the result of new features being added.

That's apples trick. Version 1 is always so bare bones (iOS 1 didn't even have copy & paste), they have to add features to the next update, leading to slow downs.

 

[darngooddesign]

That's apples trick. Version 1 is always so bare bones (iOS 1 didn't even have copy & paste), they have to add features to the next update, leading to slow downs.

Apple’s trick? Name one fully featured OS which had every feature at initial release.

 

[bushman4]

Fact: Every computer slows down as you download apps and programs etc. So why would  silicon be any different

 

[Romain_H]

Fact: Every computer slows down as you download apps and programs etc. So why would  silicon be any different

Fact: This is absolutely wrong. Windows slows down to some degree due to Registry issues.
That being said, slowdowns are not in general a real thing

 

[Romain_H]

Question:
"Will Apple Silicon Macs become slower with software updates like iOS devices? (Slower over time & lack of upgradability = more e-waste)"

Answer:
Yes.

Correct only since it slows down exactly like iOS devices: i.e. not at all

 

[leman]

Correct only since it slows down exactly like iOS devices: i.e. not at all

In my field we call this a presupposition failure

 

[neuropsychguy]

This post is a great example of the begging the question fallacy.