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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,458
2,687
OBX
Could you point to a notebook that has similar specs (including weight, thickness, screen resolution, performance, etc.) that has graphics similar to a series X?
The Advanced trim of the Razor Blade 15 is a little bit heavier and a little bit thicker, but can easily exceeds the Series X in features and performance for games.

Honestly I am not sure why you guys argue this, yes Apple hardware can do amazing things, that are not gaming related. I don’t think anyone has ever said otherwise. I also don’t understand why you guys refuse to agree that Apple could actually lead in gaming (features and performance) if they cared enough to (aka spent that money, lol).
 
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Jorbanead

macrumors 65816
Aug 31, 2018
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The Advanced trim of the Razor Blade 15 is a little bit heavier and a little bit thicker, but can easily exceeds the Series X in features and performance for games.

Honestly I am not sure why you guys argue this, yes Apple hardware can do amazing things, that are not gaming related. I don’t think anyone has ever said otherwise. I also don’t understand why you guys refuse to agree that Apple could actually lead in gaming (features and performance) if they cared enough to (aka spent that money, lol).
I'm not necessarily arguing gaming here, though I know this is the gaming thread. I do agree Apple could lead in gaming, but I think they would need to invest in gaming developers if they wanted true AAA gaming on the mac. I was simply asking about a comparable notebook to M1 Macbook Pros that gets Series X graphics - and I dont think there is such a thing. Thats why I dont get why people expect Series X graphics on a 13" 20W laptop. The Razor Blade 15 a 15" notebook so I don't think thats a fair comparison. Why not compare the Razor Blade 13" then? I belive the M1 gets similar GPU performance.
 

Jorbanead

macrumors 65816
Aug 31, 2018
1,209
1,438
The expected high-end MBP with 32 GPU cores should meet the performance of current-generation consoles. The price is still too high – not because such laptops are expensive to produce but for product differentiation. Hardware makers always sell high-end devices at high profit margins, because that makes them more profit than basing the prices on costs. Console makers have other ways of making profit, and the prices they charge for hardware reflect the actual costs better.
Gaming consoles are super cheap because they are almost all sold at a loss AFAIK - so when people compare Xbox/PS to computers they need to understand this. Microsoft doesn't make their money off consoles.

A 32-core GPU would be extremely powerful (4x as powerful as M1) and GPU prices are astronomically high right now. Comparing to the PC world, I feel the 32-core GPU option for macbook wont be that bad of price compared to the rest of the market.
 

JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
400
A 32-core GPU would be extremely powerful (4x as powerful as M1) and GPU prices are astronomically high right now. Comparing to the PC world, I feel the 32-core GPU option for macbook wont be that bad of price compared to the rest of the market.
A 32-core GPU would be a midrange model comparable to a desktop RTX 3060 or a mobile RTX 3070. You can get them in a $2k gaming desktop/laptop. The prices should drop to ~1.5k when the next GPU generation is released next year, even if the component shortage persists. On the other hand, the prices for MBP/iMac models with the best available GPU usually start somewhere between $2.5k and $3k.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,458
2,687
OBX
I'm not necessarily arguing gaming here, though I know this is the gaming thread. I do agree Apple could lead in gaming, but I think they would need to invest in gaming developers if they wanted true AAA gaming on the mac. I was simply asking about a comparable notebook to M1 Macbook Pros that gets Series X graphics - and I dont think there is such a thing. Thats why I dont get why people expect Series X graphics on a 13" 20W laptop. The Razor Blade 15 a 15" notebook so I don't think thats a fair comparison. Why not compare the Razor Blade 13" then? I belive the M1 gets similar GPU performance.
But we are talking about the M1X here, which we all assume will be going into the 14/16 inch notebooks.
Gaming consoles are super cheap because they are almost all sold at a loss AFAIK - so when people compare Xbox/PS to computers they need to understand this. Microsoft doesn't make their money off consoles.

A 32-core GPU would be extremely powerful (4x as powerful as M1) and GPU prices are astronomically high right now. Comparing to the PC world, I feel the 32-core GPU option for macbook wont be that bad of price compared to the rest of the market.
They are only sold at a loss for like the first 12-18 months of the consoles life. Sony is already making money on the Digital and non-Digital PS5's. Microsoft hasn't said, but they are probably making money on at least the Series S a this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they are break even on the X.

I am curious if they can scale clocks on the 32 core part. Do we know how fast the M1 GPU cores run?
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,530
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I am curious if they can scale clocks on the 32 core part. Do we know how fast the M1 GPU cores run?

Around 1.27ghz. Easy enough to calculate: 2600GFLOPS/1024 shader ALUs/2 FLOPS per cycle per ALU (MADD)
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,458
2,687
OBX
Around 1.27ghz. Easy enough to calculate: 2600GFLOPS/1024 shader ALUs/2 FLOPS per cycle per ALU (MADD)
You think Apple will be able to keep that core clock with 32 of them instead of 8? Usually the high count parts run at lower speeds than the "cut down" parts.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,530
19,709
You think Apple will be able to keep that core clock with 32 of them instead of 8? Usually the high count parts run at lower speeds than the "cut down" parts.

Honestly, no idea. But when one looks at gaming GPUs, they are usually clocked fairly aggressively and have to drop the clocks a lot to fit in a mobile envelope. Apple has a decisive lead in perf/watt here, as M1 GPU only consumes 10 watts. And 1.3ghz is usually on a lower end of frequency range we find in gaming GPUs. So pending other challenges, I‘d guess that they should be able to maintain similar frequency even with larger GPU clusters.
 

UBS28

macrumors 68030
Oct 2, 2012
2,893
2,340
I don't think the m1x will be good for gaming, and I think people will still need dedicated PCs for PC gaming, just like before, if not worse this time. Time will tell...

Yeah, people buying a M2X 16” MBP for gaming will be very disappointed.

Mac’s are not for gaming, never has and never will.
 

jeanlain

macrumors 68020
Mar 14, 2009
2,465
959
It'd be more informative to separate the hardware from the software aspect of the issue.
A MacBook with a 32-core M1-like GPU would be capable of running the most recent games at decent levels of performance. It would compete with PC laptops that have 2-3 times the thickness, weight and power consumption.
However, macOS will still lack the AAA games to take advantage of the hardware.
Yeah, people buying a M2X 16” MBP for gaming will be very disappointed.

Mac’s are not for gaming, never has and never will.
 

Jorbanead

macrumors 65816
Aug 31, 2018
1,209
1,438
But we are talking about the M1X here
No. We were talking about M1 here?
4E51C6F9-54E9-473D-8B12-9C44A3A1A25F.jpeg
 

VArase

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2008
114
60
Chicagoland
The expected high-end MBP with 32 GPU cores should meet the performance of current-generation consoles. The price is still too high – not because such laptops are expensive to produce but for product differentiation. Hardware makers always sell high-end devices at high profit margins, because that makes them more profit than basing the prices on costs. Console makers have other ways of making profit, and the prices they charge for hardware reflect the actual costs better.
Part of the cost is of course profit motive, but part of it is that they probably don't sell all that many of them because their market is more limited. The BoMs are much higher because of more expensive components, and fewer consumers are willing to pay those prices, and startup and overhead costs have to be covered by your sales (which units moved-wise will be much lower).

Apple pretty much stays with a 30% margin and won't enter a market where they can't make that nut - there are exceptions like Homepods (the original model) which didn't sell was well as they thought they would.

Startup costs for iPhones production lines are staggering, but the scale of sales units is easily able to absorb startup costs and overheads due to the sheer quantity of sales. High end MacBooks are a completely different story - much different even than the low-end M1 computers which sell in greater quantities.

It's really easy to rain on greedy manufacturers, but most don't make anywhere near what you'd think they do. There are some OEM smartphone and computer makers who make so little per unit sold that you have to wonder if they'd be better off putting their investment money in government bonds - but they probably look back on glory days and hope to someday rekindle their past successes.

That said, I expect the new MacBooks to do quite well - both with upgraders and switchers. Microsoft seems to be doing everything in their power to drive off those who aren't deeply entrenched in the Wintel ecosystem with Windows 11.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,458
2,687
OBX
No. We were talking about M1 here?
View attachment 1846985
I see. Well the M1 Macs have GPU’s that are more capable than the PS4 but less than the Series S. Maybe there is a version of the Razer 14 that matches, I honestly am not sure since my initial thought for the reply was in reference to the M1X (in a 16” MacBook Pro). To be frank, unless they redesign the GPU cores again I am not sure the M1X is going to have feature parity with the Series S, let alone the X, though I expect it to be faster than the S at least.
 

VArase

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2008
114
60
Chicagoland
I see. Well the M1 Macs have GPU’s that are more capable than the PS4 but less than the Series S. Maybe there is a version of the Razer 14 that matches, I honestly am not sure since my initial thought for the reply was in reference to the M1X (in a 16” MacBook Pro). To be frank, unless they redesign the GPU cores again I am not sure the M1X is going to have feature parity with the Series S, let alone the X, though I expect it to be faster than the S at least.
High performance Wintel graphics workflow has a serious bottleneck when it comes to dispatching work or getting returns from the GPUs ... requests are formatted in main memory, compressed, transmitted over PCIe, received by the GPU, decompressed into GPU memory, and executed. Return GPU compute tasks have the same problem going the other way.

All this takes real time clock tick overhead that is not directly contributing to getting pixels on the screen, or getting compute results.

Apple Silicon circumvents some of this with unified memory, where the CPU and all the IP blocks and GPU share the same memory so all that copying doesn't have to take place - meaning that with the unified memory model you get a lot more bang for the buck.

Comparisons of actual benchmarks aren't affected by this - after all, those overheads are already baked in.

It's discussions of the internal processing speed of discrete GPUs where this is a factor: which assume the request and data are already sitting in GPU memory ready to be processed. These are the speed discussions which fail to account for the Wintel graphic processing workflow overhead, and that is why faster discrete GPU's real and practical results can be surprisingly close to the 7 or 8 GPU cores of the M1 which eliminate those overheads.

Not sure how consoles handle the graphic workflow - though being PC-like I'd assume they follow the Wintel model. OTOH, at their price point maybe they use a unified memory model - though I doubt it.

CPU/GPU manufacturers are pretty set in their ways, and the economic model which creates this workflow is unlikely to change. These vendors are pretty set on optimizing their bottlenecks (faster PCIe buses, hardware compress/decompress) rather than revisualizing the process which is the basis for their bread and butter.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,530
19,709
Not sure how consoles handle the graphic workflow - though being PC-like I'd assume they follow the Wintel model. OTOH, at their price point maybe they use a unified memory model - though I doubt it.

Consoles use the unified memory model. Modern consoles use GDDR as their system memory - it’s not the optimal memory from the CPUs point of view, but since the developers know exactly what they are dealing with, they can compensate for the increased latency.

By the way, thanks for the excellent post! Well summed up.
 

OriginalClone

macrumors 6502
Jul 14, 2012
422
727
I would run windows through Parallels.
I have a feeling Apple will put some speech time in the event, to gaming, bring bootcamp to their arm chips and maybe bring out their own game steam sevice.

The questions was if the macs will be powerful enough on the Cpu and Gpu side to run these games that need those higher multicore ratings.
Good luck with that. I’m happy I still have my 2018 15” to play some games, cuz the only game worth a damn my M1 mbp can run is CS:GO
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,458
2,687
OBX
Around 1.27ghz. Easy enough to calculate: 2600GFLOPS/1024 shader ALUs/2 FLOPS per cycle per ALU (MADD)

You think Apple will be able to keep that core clock with 32 of them instead of 8? Usually the high count parts run at lower speeds than the "cut down" parts.
The answer to that question is yes.

To answer the thread question, also yes.
 

ToomeyND

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2011
566
378
The answer to that question is yes.

To answer the thread question, also yes.
I just ordered the M1 Pro because I gave up on this idea. The upside is the spread between the M1 Pro and the M1 Max 32 core GPU is the same price as a PS5. I think it's unrealistic to assume the AAA games will show up with a M1 Mac variant anytime soon. I had hoped it'd be part of the announcement with the GPU and 120Hz screen, but without a single mention, decided not to spend the additional $.
 
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Hexley

Suspended
Jun 10, 2009
1,641
505
Currently I am faced with a dilemma, which laptop to buy.
I need a laptop that I can run all my code and game on it for fun.

I sold my gaming console because realized, I could get a laptop like the G15 or Blade 14 5900hx, and if will probably perform better then my ps4 pro.

But Apple is in my blood lol, I am wondering if the new M1x chipped MacBook pros (14in and 16in) will be a good option for gaming.

I know currently Mac’s pretty much suck at playing games, but I still have hope, and was wondering if anyone knows anything about it.

Apple's M1 Max GPU is as powerful as an Nvidia RTX 2080 desktop GPU and the Sony PS5 gaming console

Gear-Apple-M1-Max-specs.jpg


 

VArase

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2008
114
60
Chicagoland
Check again by year 2023-2025 if AAA games are announced/out for the Mac. By then 2nm iPhones/iPads/Macs will be out.
That may be overly optimistic.

TSMC still hasn't gotten 3nm working, so A16/M3 may be built on 4nm. At some point process shrink will stop working and may encounter the boogyman of quantum effects or some other limitation.

A15 used in the iPhone 13 is fabricated on TSMC's N5P node which helps increase efficiency and allowed Apple to push up clocks on the Avalanch high performance cores while greatly increasing the efficiency of the Blizzard high efficiency cores. Look to see improvements of GPU and other IP blocks like the media engine to improve workflow performance.

That's the advantage Apple has in terms of product roadmap optimization - if they run into a process shrink wall, they don't have to bloody their heads repeatedly bashing into that wall like Intel did.
 

Adarna

Suspended
Jan 1, 2015
685
429
That may be overly optimistic.

TSMC still hasn't gotten 3nm working, so A16/M3 may be built on 4nm. At some point process shrink will stop working and may encounter the boogyman of quantum effects or some other limitation.

A15 used in the iPhone 13 is fabricated on TSMC's N5P node which helps increase efficiency and allowed Apple to push up clocks on the Avalanch high performance cores while greatly increasing the efficiency of the Blizzard high efficiency cores. Look to see improvements of GPU and other IP blocks like the media engine to improve workflow performance.

That's the advantage Apple has in terms of product roadmap optimization - if they run into a process shrink wall, they don't have to bloody their heads repeatedly bashing into that wall like Intel did.
The point I am making is that buy the hardware when the games are out and not before.

So so long as there is no games. Dont buy
 
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