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Will there be a new Mac Pro in 2015?
- Thread starter Anto38x
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Which would be spectacular. Haven't had a chance to read through all the pages of this thread, though. Have there been any rumors/speculation about a release timeline for the Xeon V4s?
Yes, first quarter of next year.
The problem I have with this idea, is that IF Apple would completely leave Haswell EP from Mac Pro and go straight to Broadwell that would mean they would also completely leave the Fury from Mac Pro, because Q1 and Q2 of next year is the time of next gen AMD GPUs made on 14 nm Process with HBM2.
But if we will take that in mind, we can wait with update till the end of the world...
The problem I have with this idea, is that IF Apple would completely leave Haswell EP from Mac Pro and go straight to Broadwell that would mean they would also completely leave the Fury from Mac Pro, because Q1 and Q2 of next year is the time of next gen AMD GPUs made on 14 nm Process with HBM2.
But if we will take that in mind, we can wait with update till the end of the world...
I agree, till a point. Haswell EP has been out for a while. I guess Apple didn't pick it up as they had to focus on many other new products (Watch, mainly) and - at the end of the day - it wouldn't have made such difference. Maybe 10-15% increase in performance. In the meantime, Intel came out with Thunderbolt 3, AMD is developing new GPUs (and now more than ever, a powerful GPGPU can be even more important than a CPU). Broadwell EP offers higher efficiency, which works with the Thermal Core requirements of (a little) lower TDPs, now that the system uses GPUs more intensively.
The nMP was born with SSDs (now almost at the same level of the MBP 15") and many internal improvements that ensured a solid "tock" after the last MP. I think, since Apple is focussing on consumer products, that they want to keep changing every 18 months approx the Pro line, exploiting more than an advance, to offer a solid improvement from the previous models.
The overdue update, I think, comes from the late E5 v4 delivery by Intel and the need to design a proprietary new chipset (also for Thunderbolt 3). Don't forget that the Mac Pro has a different motherboard, which needs some R&D time once the first E5 v4 prototypes are out.
The nMP was born with SSDs (now almost at the same level of the MBP 15") and many internal improvements that ensured a solid "tock" after the last MP. I think, since Apple is focussing on consumer products, that they want to keep changing every 18 months approx the Pro line, exploiting more than an advance, to offer a solid improvement from the previous models.
The overdue update, I think, comes from the late E5 v4 delivery by Intel and the need to design a proprietary new chipset (also for Thunderbolt 3). Don't forget that the Mac Pro has a different motherboard, which needs some R&D time once the first E5 v4 prototypes are out.
I agree that it seems likely Apple decided a long time ago to use Broadwell EP for the next MP, and the delay from Intel is largely to blame. However, I don't buy that Apple is too distracted with watches and phones to do the MP.
Thanks for the info!
In a couple of months I have to make a difficult decision between the high end Retina 5K iMac and a the nMP. My situation is a tad different because I'm not necessarily comparing spec to spec; instead I'm weighing the convenience of one 5K display vs. three 4K monitors (24" or 27").
I am currently on a 15" rMBP (Late 2013 with the 2.3 GHz i7 and 16 GB RAM) and it's pretty great speed-wise for what I do. Light video editing and compositing, some simple Cinema 4D work, and web development/design. The issue is the complete lack of screen real estate.
I want to add a workstation to my desk (I'm keeping the rMBP). It's just a terrible feeling to have to decide between:
1. Upgraded iMac (4.0 GHz i7, 32 GB, 512 GB flash, Radeon M295X)
-Pro: Significantly better single-core performance on a newer processor
-Pro: 27" 5K display is massive
-Pro: MUCH less expensive
-Con: Can never add additional displays
-Con: Runs a bit warm during intensive tasks + fan gets loudish
iMac from Apple: $3,099.00 USD
32 GB OWC kit: $292.50
------------------------------
TOTAL: $3,391.50
2. Base or 6-core nMP (3.7 GHz quad-core, 32 GB, 512 GB flash, FirePro D300)
-Pro: Three monitors...I've used this setup before and I'm very productive in this environment
-Pro: Better connectivity
-Pro: The GPUs
-Con: Significantly weaker single-core performance
-Con: Much more expensive
-Con: I'm looking at the Dell 4K displays like the P2715Q and I'm seeing a lot of issues with people using them with the nMPs
Mac Pro from Apple: $3,299.00 USD
32 GB OWC kit: $367.00
Dell 27 UltraHD 4K Monitor (P2715Q): $699.00 x 3 = $2,097.00
------------------------------
TOTAL: $5,396.00
The worst feeling is that it seems there is no strong indication as to when the nMP will get upgraded. I'd hate to drop $3,299.00 on pretty much the base model of the nMP to have it get blown out of the water by a significant spec bump just a few months later. :/
True... after all the investments in the factory, the hyperspace robots...
I have been using Macs and even Apple IIe, since 1983... and Apple has always been the "easy but powerful" PC. It has born for Pros (the wonderful Mac II!). So it is painful to realise that the facts are speaking by themselves: so far, Apple is idling on the Pro. And yet, it is quite late to come out with an Haswell EP product, don't you think?
Easy. If you need to compute long and complex tasks, like huge video conversions, mathematical or engineering simulations, 3D rendering and animation. Then go for the nMP regardless.
An iMac can hold a few mins, maybe an hour of intense work. After that, the fan kicks in, and the GPU (and CPU) slow down to keep temperature low in the thin metal case.
The single operation can be faster on the iMac, but if you see it on the longer run, the present nMP is far more reliable (and you don't risk to melt down the cards or collect lots of errors from the heat noise).
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That makes a lot of sense and I wasn't thoroughly considering that before you mentioned it. So thank you!
I just hate the idea of purchasing something when we could be not too far away from a significant spec bump.
Not a bad guess. A couple problems though. There is limited bandwidth available over PCIe in the Mac Pro, which is how the dual GPUs, SSD and thunderbolt all connect with the processor. Haswell and Broadwell don't add any additional bandwidth compared to the current Ivy Bridge processor. Due to the added bandwidth requirements of thunderbolt 3, most likely we will still be stuck with 1 SSD and a limited number of thunderbolt controllers. Thus there will most likely be 2, maybe 3 controllers, with bandwidth split between the controllers. There could still be 6 thunderbolt ports though.
Seeing Skylake EP within the next year is a pipe dream. Apple can't magically make Intel manufacture processors 2 years ahead of schedule. Just like Apple couldn't make Intel manufacture Broadwell or Skylake desktop/laptop processors any faster. The best to hope for would be Apple getting chips first, maybe a month or so before everyone else.
Just a note, the iMac has 2 thunderbolt ports on the back, so you can connect 2 additional displays. Also, the iMac will be better at single threaded tasks due to the newer, higher clocked processor.
True, but only as long as you're not using it for heavy processing since it will down step its clock to reduce heat.
Hmm...Interesting points. Can you buy a base nMP and manually change out the processor? Is it a cost effective option? Will the V4 E5 be compatible with the current gen nMP?
Between the current Xeon and the future Xeon? How about between the current 4-core base Xeon and the 12-core?
that's possible:
http://blog.macsales.com/22188-owc-confirms-mac-pro-2013-processor-upgradeable
i wouldn't say it's cost effective at the moment.. maybe in a few years, it will be a more viable option. (the used computer and older gen cpu will both be cheaper than they are now.. that said, it will still probably not be too dissimilar from buying a used 12core)
It can be done, but you won't save any money doing it. That and the hassle and risk of botching the job if you've never replaced a CPU and applied thermal paste before.
It's a difficult call right now, going with a nMP or wait.
Nobody really knows when it will be here, the new nMP, probably Q1'16 but it depends.
I reckon they'll wait for Broadwell and TB3 and even next gen AMD GPUs, since the current 300 series is a wash really. Plain rebrands after all, more mem and higher clocks, which in fact give some extra performance, but at the expense of much higher power draw. Seen the reviews? Multi-monitor and BlueRay playback are way off chart in terms of power consumption. And NVidia laughs at it, with almost 10% the power to do it.
OK, officially you get all the new tech but it's really just a driver thing I'd say.
So, they'll probably wait for Artic Islands and either use those new GPUs or use Fury which by then has been polished.
By the way, seen Fury X running Dirt Rally at 12K on a single card? 3 x 4K@60FPS, great feat indeed. Don't know about the settings but still great news.
Word has it that AMD is again considering splitting CPU and GPU businesses, ATI as a separate entity once again?
Nobody really knows when it will be here, the new nMP, probably Q1'16 but it depends.
I reckon they'll wait for Broadwell and TB3 and even next gen AMD GPUs, since the current 300 series is a wash really. Plain rebrands after all, more mem and higher clocks, which in fact give some extra performance, but at the expense of much higher power draw. Seen the reviews? Multi-monitor and BlueRay playback are way off chart in terms of power consumption. And NVidia laughs at it, with almost 10% the power to do it.
OK, officially you get all the new tech but it's really just a driver thing I'd say.
So, they'll probably wait for Artic Islands and either use those new GPUs or use Fury which by then has been polished.
By the way, seen Fury X running Dirt Rally at 12K on a single card? 3 x 4K@60FPS, great feat indeed. Don't know about the settings but still great news.
Word has it that AMD is again considering splitting CPU and GPU businesses, ATI as a separate entity once again?
Upgrading the nMP is a delicate matter right now.
Haswell and Broadwell share the same socket, so no problem here assuming Apple would provide a firmware update, which as we know is not exactly their usual strategy. So, that could prove to be tricky.
SkyLake uses a different chipset and is still at least 1 and a half years away, so no upgrade path is likely, unless Apple provides a new motherboard to replace the old one, which is very unlikely. Also, assuming the form factor won't change either, which is probable. The rest of the components could still be used though, but could by then be considered outdated.
I'm expecting news will come round September or so, but it's just a guess...
Haswell and Broadwell share the same socket, so no problem here assuming Apple would provide a firmware update, which as we know is not exactly their usual strategy. So, that could prove to be tricky.
SkyLake uses a different chipset and is still at least 1 and a half years away, so no upgrade path is likely, unless Apple provides a new motherboard to replace the old one, which is very unlikely. Also, assuming the form factor won't change either, which is probable. The rest of the components could still be used though, but could by then be considered outdated.
I'm expecting news will come round September or so, but it's just a guess...
I was in a similar predicament as my 8hr/day machine (2009 MP) was on the outs and I couldn't wait to buy a new machine. I picked up a base model nMP on sale during Christmas knowing I'd only keep this for about 2yrs tops. I can sell it and then get a beefier one once Intel finally releases Skylake along with TB3 etc.
It is not so much "will" the nMP get updated but when. Locking down the "when" is harder than the iMac.
It is more likely the iMac 5K will upgrade in several months ( Oct-Nov) with new stuff. There should be desktop Gen 6 (Skylake) processors around September. ( http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2015/2015052101_Launch_schedule_of_Intel_Skylake_processors.html ) The mainstream iMacs are 2 years old at that point so in more pressing need of a refresh. If mainstream refreshed then 5K versions can pick that up almost for "free".
Even though the mainstream iMacs are 2 years old, Apple at least did something in 2014 ( and recently) with the 5K option. Mac Pro no updates , no improvements , nothing. Apple not providing long term roadmaps is offset when they regularly actually do something.
From now until the release of E5 v4 (Q1 2016), a new Mac Pro in the interim is increasing unlikely. There is no good reason for Apple to release a E5 v3 system when in less than 6-7 months they can release a E5 v4 system. If the firmware is set to handle just v4 then they never have to cover v3 and reduce the options of folks injecting CPUs. The window for them to do something with E5 v3 was Nov '14 - May '15.
Likewise, if they are looking to jump from TB2 to TB3 they might as well wait two years ( late 2015 the limited supply of TB3 controllers is probably all gobbled up by some other Mac desktops (iMac) and maybe Mac laptops (MacBook would fill TB 'hole' with TB 3 behind the single port) . Volume production for TB 3 is 2016. ). Apple should have better GPU options by Q1 '16 also (even it is just cheaper prices of what is on the market now. ). It is also a bit goofy to put the Mac Pro rollout in the same time window as the OS X rollout. Folks who need a rock solid production system aren't going to use a x.0 version of the OS.
So one or two months from now the iMacs is going to be more poised for a bump.
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Not just chipset, it is different socket also.
Not sure why. The Purely ( Xeon E5 v5 ) roadmap was discussed previously.
http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2015/2015052701_Details_of_Intel_Purley_server_platform_leaked.html
v4 isn't coming until 2016. Just about anything based on current CPU/GPU/SSD/etc components is already out there. There will be more leaked demos of E5 v4 boards from other vendors in Aug/Sept , but that doesn't mean Apple product.
Apple back sliding into using desktop CPUs (Gen6 ) is pipe dream. There is little to no upside to doing that over most of the configuration range sold today.
CPUs in these days in terms of performance are more or less meaningless. Everything moves more and more on GPUs and that it the way it has to be. Apple invests in that very much, and Metal and Mac Pro are just simple emanations of it. Times when things were made by dual CPU and single GPU on Mac Platform are over. Simple as that.
Apple potentially waited for AMD to show the Fury GPUs, so they can update that computer relatively soon, especially that even people already owning Mac Pro are eager to upgrade. Im far from hazarding a guess when new Mac Pro will appear.
But I am pretty sure it will be this year. And that it will have Haswell CPUs and best possible in that thermal envelope GPUs from AMD.
Apple potentially waited for AMD to show the Fury GPUs, so they can update that computer relatively soon, especially that even people already owning Mac Pro are eager to upgrade. Im far from hazarding a guess when new Mac Pro will appear.
But I am pretty sure it will be this year. And that it will have Haswell CPUs and best possible in that thermal envelope GPUs from AMD.
Arctic Islands are suppose to be aligned with HBM2. HBM2 isn't coming until Q2 2016 (presuming no problems ). Probably not going to see volume stuff using HBM2 until end or after 1H16. Fury dropping in June-July puts its replacement at least around 12 month after that mark.
Probably going to be about a year before have bumped 400 series appears. Not sure what non HBM solutions are really going to buy them going forward. Lower end ( smaller package and shorter stacks) package can fill some of the lower cost range. The others would be just more chopped down rebadges until the packages take over as the volume goes way up.
By Q1 2016 Fury should be at least a "known quantity" if not polished.
No. There are rumors that AMD is looking at whatever non essential components they could sell off. That doesn't means splitting up the x86 CPU and GPU. ( a representative example quote was the "server CPUs"). AMD does more than just x86 CPU and standard PCIe GPU cards.
The x86 CPU package is almost completely non competitive with Intel if don't have a GPU. Intel has them. They dominate the market for x86 solutions so if AMD doesn't have one they are pretty much doomed. They would be missing major components. Could AMD "fork" off the integrated GPUs designs with a generous license? Sure... but what are you saving? The new GPU business isn't going to let you take the best GPU designers... so what do you got? A product with understaffed and underresourced R&D component. They'd had that for years... hasn't really produced much.
The server x86 CPUs pragmatically can't be split from the desktop ones. AMD has a x86 license. They tap danced around GlobalFoundaries keeping the license to make... I doubt that will work for two split design houses. Intel will probably sue which will screw up any valuation the spin off would get short term.
The AMD could just be a gamer card and GPU company. That's a different puff on the crack pipe. It is reasonable business but again decoupled from any CPU core it is a limited, at long term risk business. They won't get a high multiple price for spinning that out.
AMD could sell some assets that they probably should not have bought in the first place.
AMD is in ARM based CPU package business
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9170/amd-exits-dense-microserver-business-ends-seamicro-brand
If they were a healthy company maybe. But they have trouble getting just x86 CPUs and GPUs out on timely bases. They need multiple design teams on ARM like they need another hole in the head. That was a dumb acquisition probably aided by some goofy consultants. So another set of consultants to get rid of it is not surprising. If AMD wanted to dump x86 and plow everything into ARM maybe.... but battle Intel, the ARM implementors, and Nvidia all at the same time. Bonehead dumb.
I strongly suspect the "server CPU business" being mentioned as an example is the ARM one.
Along similar line would be spinning out Hypertransport and the interconnect that might be useful to other systems.
Oh look AMD sells SSDs
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/solid-state-drives
Oh look AMD sells Memory
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/memory
I'm sure that is only two of several "throw stuff at the barn and see if it sticks" things they have been funded that are of dubious strategic value.
When Apple was bleeding, Jobs cleaned house. Newton ... nuked. Overlapping Mac product lines ... nuked. AMD does need to do a garage sale (and/or drop some tactical nukes on some projects). That is more so to limit the bleed than clim out of the hole.
Probably not. AMD not getting Fury out in a timely fashion means probably not getting the follow on any faster. It is going to be practically Q3 '15 when Fury is out in earnest (real volume, not limited availability highest end options). The follow on is likely Q3 '16.
It can't be Q1 '16 because HBM2 components from SK Hynix aren't due until Q2 '16. Don't think there is going to be another major source they can leverage any earlier. The ramp up is going to be more bumpy when there are 2-3 folks all trying to get at the initially limited HBM2 supply also.
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