Will there be a new Mac Pro in 2015?

[ManuelGomes]

Aiden, your foot note is funny
But you do remember that Apple started off making computers (Apple I) and not cell phones, right? At the time cell phones were probably not in Job's or Woz's minds still.
Right now, they must make more money on the cell phone business than with Macs, but that was not where they came from.
For something that started out in a garage with no money in their pockets, I'd say they came through pretty well, wouldn't you?
They were and still are pioneers in many areas, and that's what makes others chase after them and create all this dynamic market, and you have to agree that they do set the trends.

 

[flat five]

Guys, don't start another discussion please, we have enough of those here!! :-(
It's a hot topic yes, but keep it calm, we should all be having a cool exchange of ideas/thoughts on what the next MP should be, not starting wars on every page. Some might find it amusing though

it's the chat thread.. there's always a fifty page thread around here for arguing over anything that's loosely on topic.. better to try keeping it all in one thread instead of multiple threads scattered throughout the forum
(imo)

 

[filmak]

But you do remember that Apple started off making computers (Apple I) and not cell phones, right? At the time cell phones were probably not in Job's or Woz's minds still.
Right now, they must make more money on the cell phone business than with Macs, but that was not where they came from.
For something that started out in a garage with no money in their pockets, I'd say they came through pretty well, wouldn't you?
They were and still are pioneers in many areas, and that's what makes others chase after them and create all this dynamic market, and you have to agree that they do set the trends.

I agree with everything you wrote, and surely they are pioneers in many sectors.

The problem is that they (Apple) have, for about 5 years now, very large gaps in mac pro's update/upgrade/new model cycles.
Given that desktop computers are their roots, lately they do not pay much attention keeping them current, like the mbps, iMacs and iOS devices for example, unfortunately...

Right now if you really need a mac pro for your work you will have to buy the model from 2013 (of course it's still very capable and will serve you well) but you will certainly have some second thoughts about its age / future.

 

[ManuelGomes]

Copy that, and agreed.
I guess there has to be somewhere to discuss hot topics.
But let's not get into insults.

 

[filmak]

These are exactly my thoughts and my recommendation too.

It's a hot topic yes, but keep it calm, we should all be having a cool exchange of ideas/thoughts on what the next MP should be, not starting wars on every page.

We have all learned a lot from this thread.

 

[ManuelGomes]

filmak, in fact they are lacking frequent innovation, when it comes to the latest specs in MP. But maybe it's the way they want it to be like. It's not exactly a "sell a lot" product I'd imagine, so maybe they don't feel like they need to keep it always up to date. In this type of machines there must be some stability, and upgrading with each iteration of new hardware, being it CPU, GPU, SSD, RAM or whatever, could lead to some people not liking that much change. For most of us I believe that any update for a newer tech is always a good thing. But there might be some that want more stability out of any given platform.
Just a thought.
Still, in the laptop arena they are kings, always on the latest and greatest.
Retina screens almost on all devices, Broadwell CPUs where available, Haswell on others. Skylake updates rumored but I don't believe they'll come before early 2016. Blazing fast SSDs as standard on almost all models.
Thunderbolt 2 and USB-C, TB3 to come.
What else can we ask for?!
OK, better GPUs, but they're waiting on AMD, since nVidia doesn't play their game, as they want at least.
You see all the PC manufacturers going after the same shine but it always feel a bit lame in comparison, in my opinion.

 

[ManuelGomes]

filmak, you are a true Apple fan it seems. You have almost every Apple device there is or ever was.
I'm up to grab another MBP 13" this time but I'm afraid a Skylake refresh will come sooner rather than later. I'd hold off if I knew when it's coming, but that would be playing the waiting game again, following the wait for the nMP :-(
Integrated GPUs seem quite better with SKL, and maybe NVMe comes this time around for the MBP, but wating forever is no good when you need the machine.

 

[filmak]

Mac pros are real workhorses, you can see how many people depend on them after so many years (1,1 and 3,1 MPs).
I still work happily on my 2008 3,1 MP.
Also 4,1 and 5,1 are in great demand in used market.
Perhaps, given the endurance of the old machines and their upgradability, there is not so much of demand to make Apple built next iteration of nMPs?
If this is true, imho, it's normal to have such long gaps in upgrades.

 

[filmak]

filmak, you are a true Apple fan it seems. You have almost every Apple device there is or ever was.
I'm up to grab another MBP 13" this time but I'm afraid a Skylake refresh will come sooner rather than later. I'd hold off if I knew when it's coming, but that would be playing the waiting game again, following the wait for the nMP :-(
Integrated GPUs seem quite better with SKL, and maybe NVMe comes this time around for the MBP, but wating forever is no good when you need the machine.

Yes, I completely understand you, I have been reading this thread from its first day and, yesterday, I have placed an order for a second nMP (4c D500 this time), after a long long wait...
You can't wait forever.
Also whenever we buy a new mac, the most sure thing is that in a few months there will always be something better.

 

[ManuelGomes]

It seems you like the nMP as well.
I'm still waiting for the update but there are really no signs that it will be coming anytime soon.
Early 2016 is still the best guess.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Looks like AMD is going to ******** themselves. Latest Nvidia web drivers improve GeForce performance by 50-90%. Radeon drivers can't come close to what Nvidia is now doing on OSX and AMD can't even come close to the power efficiency either.

 

[AidenShaw]

it's nvidia that doesn't give you the choice.. not apple.
you get that, right?

Sorry, but I don't get that.

The Titan X runs OpenCL, and it even often runs OpenCL faster than Firepros. http://videocardz.com/55081/nvidia-geforce-gtx-titan-x-opencl-performance-leaks-out

Nvidia does offer a choice.

 

[koyoot]

http://barefeats.com/gtx980ti.html
So now on OS X Nvidia is faster than on Windows?
Anyways good job for Nvidia for improving the drivers. There is still a big cache about those Drivers. 680 is supposedly faster than GTX 980 Ti .

Sorry, but I don't get that.

The Titan X runs OpenCL, and it even runs OpenCL faster than Firepros. http://videocardz.com/55081/nvidia-geforce-gtx-titan-x-opencl-performance-leaks-out

Nvidia does offer a choice.

http://s28.postimg.org/a8bdgk7pp/Capture.png
http://s30.postimg.org/431cr5ej5/Capture.png
http://s28.postimg.org/4vr4g6971/Capture.png
Computerbase.de
http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/15...uxmark-v3-(complex-scene,-gpu-only)-chart.png
golem.de
Both from Fury X reviews. Is it really faster in OpenCL? Are the FirePros using Grenada GPU?

 

[AidenShaw]

Both from Fury X reviews. Is it really faster in OpenCL? Are the FirePros using Grenada GPU?

I changed "even" to "often", since the Fury wins some, the Titan wins some.

I'll bookmark this post for next summer, when the Nvidia Pascal systems bench against the year-old Fury.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

http://barefeats.com/gtx980ti.html
So now on OS X Nvidia is faster than on Windows?

Almost as fast now but OpenGL doesn't support the same level of texture quality and post processing special effects as Direct X. Tomb Raider on PC runs faster with higher textures and TressFXEnabled. That feature doesn't even exist on Mac.

 

[MacVidCards]

I'm not sure why a Fury is mentioned in thread about nMP.

As has been shown many times, you could only power (or cool) about 2/3 of a single Fury in nMP.

 

[subsonix]

Almost as fast now but OpenGL doesn't support the same level of texture quality and post processing special effects as Direct X. Tomb Raider on PC runs faster with higher textures and TressFXEnabled. That feature doesn't even exist on Mac.

Well Direct X is a proprietary Microsoft framework so no wonder it doesn't exist. Apple is adopting Metal on OS X on the other hand, so there may be an equivalent.

As has been shown many times, you could only power (or cool) about 1/3 of a single Fury in nMP.

It's probably best to leave that problem to the engineers at Apple rather than to make half-ass assumptions about it on a forum.

 

[koyoot]

I changed "even" to "often", since the Fury wins some, the Titan wins some.

I'll bookmark this post for next summer, when the Nvidia Pascal systems bench against the year-old Fury.

Aiden, can you explain what Nvidia mean by: "mixed precision performance". I genuinely have no idea what that means and how that refers. Also look at the second link from golem.de. In Luxmark 3 R9 290X is faster, much faster than Titan X.

And to calm us all I give this picture of baby koala:

 

[MacVidCards]

It's probably best to leave that problem to the engineers at Apple rather than to make half-ass assumptions about it on a forum.

I have handled and dealt with literally 1000's of GPUs in a variety of Apple Computers. How much power something needs is how much power it needs.

How much heat something gives off is how much heat it gives off.

Apple just barely squeezed their down clocked 7970s into that budget. A 7970 uses about 100 Watts LESS power then a Fury.

Wishing and hoping that Apple will find a way to squeeze 2 @ 375 Watt GPUs (that's 750 Watts in case you wondered) into a 250 Watt power budget (and thus a 250 Watt cooling budget) isn't accepting obvious reality.

Start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

If there is something you don't understand, let me know and I will try to explain it.

 

[subsonix]

I have handled and dealt with literally 1000's of GPUs in a variety of Apple Computers. How much power something needs is how much power it needs.

How much heat something gives off is how much heat it gives off.

Wishing and hoping that Apple will find a way to squeeze 2 @ 375 Watt GPUs (that's 750 Watts in case you wondered) into a 250 Watt power budget (and thus a 250 Watt cooling budget) isn't accepting obvious reality.

Start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

If there is something you don't understand, let me know and I will try to explain it.

Yes but the cooling is handled in a vastly different (and more efficient) way in the new MacPro compared to the traditional model with PCIe slots, it can be seen by simply observing the amount of fans mounted on large cards. What the limits or tolerance is on the design is not really known to anyone who hasn't been involved in the design itself. That's my point.

 

[MacVidCards]

Yes but the cooling is handled in a vastly different (and more efficient) way in the new MacPro compared to the traditional model with PCIe slots, it can be seen by simply observing the amount of fans mounted on large cards. What the limits or tolerance is on the design is not really known to anyone who hasn't been involved in the design itself. That's my point.

You need to read that page I linked to.

The concept of energy never being created or destroyed is crucial. If you pump 750 Watts into something, 750 Watts comes out. Heat is moved, it doesn't just "go away" because you use a copper heatsink. Fury X runs so hot that AMD fitted water cooling, BECAUSE THEY HAD TO. (Just like when Apple tried to keep G5 competitive by ramping clocks, HAD to use water)

Again, if something takes in 750 Watts, 750 Watts comes out. Either as heat, or noise, or light. But all of the energy is accounted for. A nMP with a 450 Watt heat budget can't magically make heat go away, no matter how fancy the fan blades.

Realistically, Apple could have an external power supply and add water cooling, wouldn't be pretty but would solve the problem. Otherwise, it is massively detuned Fiji, Mobile cards, or older cards.

 

[subsonix]

You need to read that page I linked to.

The point is, any assumptions about the limitations on the cooling in the MacPro are just assumptions. AMD fitted water cooling on the card for use in a PCIe slot, not mounted directly on a large heat sink with thermal paste. Now it may well be that you are correct, but.. you're still making an assumption based on a free standing card designed to be used in a PCIe slot with no heat sink and case designed to remove heat.

 

[koyoot]

MVC, do you believe that HBM on Fury X has 450 GB/s bandwidth?

Official BOX of Sapphire AMD Fury X. It plainly says 450GB/s.

Also, http://mundo.pccomponentes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Fury-X-Full-Specs.png Official AMD Slide for Fury X. Plainly says 275W TDP. None of the reviews shown higher than 280W power draw on Average. Also, 275W TDP from that AMD Slide is BIOS TDP. If we will turn to Stacc post from few pages ago, we will see that people experimented with the GPU by running it on 60% of nominal TDP. If that is the case, than in that circumstances the real TDP was around 175W and the core clock was 1035 MHz. All the links are in this thread on the last pages.

Would it be hard for Full Fiji chip to run on 125W if it already can run on 175? Would it be hard for Fiji to sustain 900 MHz on core at 125 if it is possible for it maintain 1035 MHz on 175W?

I guess, only Apple knows the answer...

P.S. If Fury X runs on Water Cooling because it has to, then explain to me, why Fury Nano is rumored to be full Fiji chip with Air Cooling?

 

[flat five]

Sorry, but I don't get that.

The Titan X runs OpenCL, and it even often runs OpenCL faster than Firepros. http://videocardz.com/55081/nvidia-geforce-gtx-titan-x-opencl-performance-leaks-out

Nvidia does offer a choice.

they offer the same choice as apple offers with OS X.

want to use our software? then you have to buy our hardware.

why you think it's apple's responsibility to be a middleman in that deal is beyond me.

 

[mathpunk]

Aiden, can you explain what Nvidia mean by: "mixed precision performance". I genuinely have no idea what that means and how that refers.

Mixed precision in this case means using single precision (SP) for most of a calculation, but using double precision (DP) for accumulations (sums) and perhaps other things so that precision is preserved. The idea is that you can get away with using single precision most of the time, taking advantage of the efficiency in both decreased memory usage and runtime, without getting bit by catastrophic loss of precision by using DP for critical parts of the calculations.