And I wonder if they really manage to put the 5700XT into the regular iMac, then what can we expect in the iMac Pro (if they don’t bury it)
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Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?
- Thread starter krazzix
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I can live with that.
A 'Pro 5700' with 5700XT BTO?
I'm in.
Azrael.
[automerge]1590425816[/automerge]
Depends on if the iMac Pro sticks around...when the launch of the iMac Pro is...ie will it happen later in the year and get RDNA2 whilst the iMac gets the 'year old' RDNA1.
Another thing to consider re: putting the Radeon 5700XT, not only is RDNA1 more thermally efficient than a Vega 64...but heat wise...it's not that far away from the 580 in the iMac as is. Because RDNA is more thermally efficient than previous generations of Radeon product which were struggling thermally vs Nvidia by way of comparison.
And finally, the recent leaks point to a RDNA1 'die strink' which may *further* improve the thermal efficiency of RDNA1 which was already a step in the right direction re: thermal efficiency. So it actually may make MORE sense to put a 5700XT in there with a die shrink than keeping the 580 in there.
It could be that Apple's been waiting for the die shrink to put better GPU components in there. Whilst it's not RDNA2 it's far better than what's currently in the iMacs.
My only grumble is...that RDNA2 will only be available on an iMac Pro, a £5k computer. When PCs in the 1k to £2k territory will have access to what looks like being the best Radeon card in years. The design of the desktop Macs short of the Mac Pro at £6k (starting) is punitive. When? Historically? You could order a £2k tower from Apple and order a £250-ish leading gpu and put it in the tower and not worry about thermal considerations of an iMac, AiO trying to be ALL THINGS to Everybody.
My own gnark is that £1k to £3560 iMacs will probably have to wait ANOTHER year to access RDNA2. Whilst I wouldn't expect 80 CU 'BIG' Navi in there. SOME access to 'Big' Navi I would ie some of the cut down models and with better cooling in the iMac.
But any GPU improvement is welcome news, it's my chief gripe about Apple desktops. You may have noticed...
Azrael.
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I've been following Apple leaks for many many years, and have never heard of this guy/gal. Nothing they have reported catches the headlines... (thinking macrumours and 9to5mac). What they tweet seems very shady (Mac mini with a dGPU, 16in MBP to receive a larger Touch Bar, etc). I am not buying this for one minute. I hope I am wrong.
No chance of that. They have to improve the iMac at some point. Any improvement means that the iMac will probably match the iMac at around £2500 instead of the £3560. ie. IMprovements to cpu core count eg. 8 core, 16 gigs of ram, gpu and SSD and then the only thing you go for the iMac Pro for are?
Grey paint. Cooling. Erm. Better sound. 'Nice' to haves. Not worth an extra £2500.
When the iMac 'steps up...' the iMac Pro is going to have to become far more compelling.
For me, just rebrand the iMac from £1700-£3560 the iMac Pro. Bring the refinements into the iMac of cooling, sound and paint. Which means the iMac 21 inch becomes the more 'consumer' orientated machine...in a far more friendly price range of £799-£1399 (as much as you should be paying for a stingy21 inch monitor.) As a 24 inch version that makes the 'consumer' iMac far more compelling.
I hear what you're saying about the cpus. We all lived through Intel's delays and problems. But Apple designed themselves into that cul de sac. So they have to share responsibility for not just having a tower in the £1k-£3 arena that can just 'take anything' cpu wise. Intel didn't force them to design the 'Can' or make the iMac the 'tower range' computer from £1700-£3560. Apple should just have a consumer tower and let the Apple Mac consumer decide if they want the iMac or the Tower. It's artificial upsell.
But really, it's just a matter of 'low balling' Comet cpus. They'll just 'peg' them lower. And then they won't run 'as hot.' And 'iMac Pro' cooling?
And iMac Pro cooling?
And iMac Pro cooling?
Did I say that?
Azrael.
[automerge]1590426704[/automerge]
The proof will be in the pudding...the other leaks seem to suggest some variant of the 5700s. Plus the RDNA1 will be due die shrinks. Which makes their inclusion quite likely in the iMac...I would have thought. Apple's GPU history in the iMac rarely included the 'top end' cards for obvious reasons. But with the iMac Pro they have really stretched the thermal envelope of what is possible in the AiO.
And credit to HP and their AiO. They've managed to put a 2080 gpu in theirs....
Don't get me started on the dGPU in the Mac Mini. *HOWLS AT THE MOON!*
Azrael.
[automerge]1590426865[/automerge]
Hmm. That would tie in with the rumours of the 23 inch iMac for 2nd half this year.
Which, as you point out, would put it bang smack in the RDNA2 path. At which point.
Will Apple give us RDNA1 or 2?
Which means the wait for a Mac will be agonisingly long for some. *points to self.
Azrael.
[automerge]1590427030[/automerge]
You've sold it to me.
I wish they'd just make a black NeXt Cube box. With mainstream cpu and gpu cooling solutions. £999-£3560.
Something smart you can just plug into the 'iMac Monitor' or XDR cheaper variant for consumers.
Job done. I'd happily put the Mini and iMac in the dumpster for that.
I'd buy it. Maybe Freida would...and Alex...and Gusp'....and...
Azrael.
[automerge]1590427130[/automerge]
I hear what you're saying. But does Apple?
Azrael.
[automerge]1590427344[/automerge]
Er, yes?
Apple launched the 5k iMac when Dell were charging a fortune for it minus a computer.
Where IS that Apple today making the iMac a compelling value? An innovation machine?
For the record, I think Dell do an 8k which has been on sale in the past on Amazon for around £3k-ish.
With Apple's supply chain expertise....
But I guess with the Pro XDR on 6k we won't expect 8k any time soon.
But a 6k iMac. It's going to be doable at some point. Now? Or in the future?
Revolution or evolution?
We have yet to see the iMac Pro refinements come to the iMac and it's been 3 years later. I don't recall things taking that long under Steve Jobs...
Azrael.
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Yeah, but the intial 5k iMacs had lag window fantastic and weren't 100%. They were clearly under powered to power the iMac.
Recall WoW getting 25 fps in some reviews.
Azrael.
[automerge]1590427565[/automerge]
Because of the graphic scaling? I guess that makes sense. I wish Apple had gone 8k on the XDR. Dell have their own 8k monitor for £3k-ish. It's had decent reviews.
We've been at 5k res' on the iMac for a long time now. I'd like to see Apple aim higher. A stand alone 8k monitor, a stand alone 4k monitor.
Azrael.
Well, the Asian account started on April 20th so it's not odd that you haven't heard of it and of course it's just a rumor not a fact so we don't have to believe anything.
I found out about the account after a report from Swedish Macworld.At some point, the iMac will be a 'Surface 2' desktop or iPad will be big enough to be a Wacom/Surface desktop on a 'z' stand keyboard.
The demand for these devices is increasing. And the big tell tale is the fact that every man and his dog are making great 'draw tv slates.' From Huon to M$ to Wacom. It just used to be Wacom. Not anymore.
You have the M$ Surface range.
You have the iPad range.
The 'Wacom' style pad computer.
The plug it in drawing slate as 2nd monitor drawing device.
And the prices for these range from a few hundred right upto £3k-ish.
Many said what's the point of adding a stylus to the iPad.
When, from an artist or drawing point of view, it made perfect sense to my index which had worn out it's finger print on an iPad 3.
These 'frankenstein' computers are quite popular...
I'd like to see Apple make a bigger iPad around 17 inches. One day, an iOS device is going to get bigger.
Yeah. We heard Phil Schiller's grand theory of everything.
Azrael.
[automerge]1590428096[/automerge]
We can't rule it out with Apple. *looks at what happened to Mac Mini and Mac Pro.
Azrael.
PS.
AMD "BIG" NAVI21 GPU variants have been decoded - VideoCardz.com
AMD Big Navi GPU has been decoded – at least 10 variants are expected. AMD Navi 21 For the past year or so, we have been hearing about Navi Refresh. For a long time those rumors have been treated with a certain amount of skepticism, but as soon as AMD themselves confirmed that they are […]
Suggests the Navi 21 has two gpus coming to the iMac/iMac Pro. And two more coming to the Mac Pro...
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Yes, AMD seems to be on May 27 to reveal details about the new GPUs.PS.
Suggests the Navi 21 has two gpus coming to the iMac/iMac Pro. And two more coming to the Mac Pro...AMD "BIG" NAVI21 GPU variants have been decoded - VideoCardz.com
AMD Big Navi GPU has been decoded – at least 10 variants are expected. AMD Navi 21 For the past year or so, we have been hearing about Navi Refresh. For a long time those rumors have been treated with a certain amount of skepticism, but as soon as AMD themselves confirmed that they are […]videocardz.com
Maybe we will hear about the Arcturus architecture that AMD is preparing for (by the way) the computing segment?
I still have a feeling that somewhere here on the forum someone already has a screenshot with a list of the drivers found from the new AMD cards that were not previously known. But I can be mistaken that this is it.
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I can live with that.
A 'Pro 5700' with 5700XT BTO?
I'm in.
Gave it a quick google. The XT is a dedicated gaming card? Would that not be some sort of step down from the Vega 48?
Found this benchmark. Makes sense it's better than the iMac Pros Vega 56 years later, but still the iMac Pro sits at 5500€.
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Pro W5700X versus other 2019 Mac Pro GPUs
real world speed test results for performance minded Macintosh users
barefeats.com
Apple Macs running AMD Radeon VII GPU
real world speed test results for performance minded Macintosh users
barefeats.com
The 48 isn't a bad card. But paying £400 plus for it. The 5700XT is cheaper. And hangs with the Vega or better for games and is competitive on compute as well.
Either way, I expect to see Apple optimise and make progress for the next iMac GPU.
There plenty of options from the die shrunk RDNA1 to 'something' from the Big Navi stack. Perhaps a 'Vega 48' style custom gpu to access BiG Navi...
There should be significant gains in terms of the standard gpu. Any 5700 variant should spank the 580.
And I'll be surprised if the BTO gpu option doesn't entice...especially if it's RDNA2 flavoured...
Azrael.
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I read somewhere that compute and games are going to be split via hardware. Eg. Big Navi for Games....vs Arcturis for Compute...
Azrael.
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So it seems our calls for a good GPU may be answered, and they will almost certainly slot in the 10th gen Intel CPUs, so... the big question, will there be a redesign or a larger than 27in option?
I think, after all this... I think it could be a spec bump for this year (possible with the iMac Pro cooling), and then the real deal next year (possibly delayed from Q4 this year? I NEED that redesign and 32in version please.
I think, after all this... I think it could be a spec bump for this year (possible with the iMac Pro cooling), and then the real deal next year (possibly delayed from Q4 this year? I NEED that redesign and 32in version please.
The iMac Pro and iMac 5K have identical LG panels.
Because the iMac still sells millions of units a year and brings in billions in revenue?
Because it's not seen as outdated for the hundreds of thousands of us who buy millions of them every year?
My iMac 2017 is certainly not outdated for my needs and when it comes time to replace it, even if it looks exactly the same as it did in 2012, I will still buy one because it won't be outdated for my needs. And my needs do not track well to a portable, which is why my 2017 MacBook Pro 15" only comes out of it's bag on average once a month to top of the battery and update it's apps (I only have it because I was able to get it for an extremely low price from my work).
The optimist in me says it is because user-replaceable RAM is important enough to this segment of the market that Apple is compelled to keep offering it.
- You need more than 10 cores
- You need more than 64GB of RAM
- You need fast SSD read-write speeds due to striped modules
- You need 10Gb Ethernet and do not want to sacrifice a TB3 port for an external adapter
- You need more than 2 TB3/USB-C ports for external peripherals
- You don't want to pay five figures for any of the above when you could pay four
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I think they were referring to the apparent confirmation that the iMac Pro has PWM, but it seems the iMac does not.
The website below says the iMac Pro does (and at a very low frequency: 208.3), but the most recent iMac 5K it includes is the 2015 model, which it lists as no PWM. I don't know if there is more recent information elsewhere.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/PWM-Ranking-Notebooks-Smartphones-and-Tablets-with-PWM.163979.0.html
Since they use identical panels and timing controllers, one would think they should all either have PVM or not. It is interesting that the chart shows PWM, but their review of the iMac Pro said they could not detect a PWM regulation of the backlight.
Eh, I just don't see myself buying a 3rd iMac that looks exactly the same as the previous two I owned. My first iMac was a Mid 2011 21" and second one a Late 2015 27". I am even considering spending my savings to get an iMP which is an overkill for my needs and nowhere near what I would normally spend for an Apple machine, but I'm just desperate to get some variation even for the space gray or the better cooling and speakers.
How is the user replaceable ram more important to the iMac users and not to the iMac Pro that is geared to more heavy workload and pros that need customization and upgradability more than the regular iMac users?
I am going to hazard a guess a fair number of iMac Pros are placed into corporate environments with dedicated IT staff who can service and upgrade them. Of those who buy it who are not in a corporation, I expect the majority of them are purchasing it as a business tool and therefore will expense it, so paying Apple prices for RAM is not a major issue since when you amortize it out over a four or five year usable life (if not more), the cost is negligible.
But it could very well just be inertia - as in since they already have the access there and the systemboard has the RAM slots there just keep doing it and when they do get around to doing a full case redesign with a new cooling system, remove that ability.
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The 64 GB RAM upgrade for 500 CAD is still "correct". But the upgrades above have ridiculous price. But for that kind of computer, I think 64 GB is mostly the sweet spot.
No and No. It's going to be a specs bump. People need to stop setting themselves up for disappointment.
But... but.... *cries*
Maybe I'll just pray that the sketchy asf Mac mini with a dGPU rumour is true for next year, haha.
i9 10 cores and 5700XT might be a go for me. Cooling has to be much superior than current one. iMac Pro has 500 watt power supply. According to that, imac pro's thermal system might be enough if Apple doesn't change the design.
Freida would ;-)
Why are you so sure? Do you have any source?
Rumour is about substantial update so that could be redesign also at least internally for iMac Pro's cooling.
I do find your approach a bit reckless here. Can we all not be friends? :-D
[automerge]1590442481[/automerge]No chance of that. They have to improve the iMac at some point. Any improvement means that the iMac will probably match the iMac at around £2500 instead of the £3560. ie. IMprovements to cpu core count eg. 8 core, 16 gigs of ram, gpu and SSD and then the only thing you go for the iMac Pro for are?
Grey paint. Cooling. Erm. Better sound. 'Nice' to haves. Not worth an extra £2500.
When the iMac 'steps up...' the iMac Pro is going to have to become far more compelling.
For me, just rebrand the iMac from £1700-£3560 the iMac Pro. Bring the refinements into the iMac of cooling, sound and paint. Which means the iMac 21 inch becomes the more 'consumer' orientated machine...in a far more friendly price range of £799-£1399 (as much as you should be paying for a stingy21 inch monitor.) As a 24 inch version that makes the 'consumer' iMac far more compelling.
I hear what you're saying about the cpus. We all lived through Intel's delays and problems. But Apple designed themselves into that cul de sac. So they have to share responsibility for not just having a tower in the £1k-£3 arena that can just 'take anything' cpu wise. Intel didn't force them to design the 'Can' or make the iMac the 'tower range' computer from £1700-£3560. Apple should just have a consumer tower and let the Apple Mac consumer decide if they want the iMac or the Tower. It's artificial upsell.
But really, it's just a matter of 'low balling' Comet cpus. They'll just 'peg' them lower. And then they won't run 'as hot.' And 'iMac Pro' cooling?
And iMac Pro cooling?
And iMac Pro cooling?
Did I say that?
Azrael.
[automerge]1590426704[/automerge]
The proof will be in the pudding...the other leaks seem to suggest some variant of the 5700s. Plus the RDNA1 will be due die shrinks. Which makes their inclusion quite likely in the iMac...I would have thought. Apple's GPU history in the iMac rarely included the 'top end' cards for obvious reasons. But with the iMac Pro they have really stretched the thermal envelope of what is possible in the AiO.
And credit to HP and their AiO. They've managed to put a 2080 gpu in theirs....
Don't get me started on the dGPU in the Mac Mini. *HOWLS AT THE MOON!*
Azrael.
[automerge]1590426865[/automerge]
Hmm. That would tie in with the rumours of the 23 inch iMac for 2nd half this year.
Which, as you point out, would put it bang smack in the RDNA2 path. At which point.
Will Apple give us RDNA1 or 2?
Which means the wait for a Mac will be agonisingly long for some. *points to self.
Azrael.
[automerge]1590427030[/automerge]
You've sold it to me.
I wish they'd just make a black NeXt Cube box. With mainstream cpu and gpu cooling solutions. £999-£3560.
Something smart you can just plug into the 'iMac Monitor' or XDR cheaper variant for consumers.
Job done. I'd happily put the Mini and iMac in the dumpster for that.
I'd buy it. Maybe Freida would...and Alex...and Gusp'....and...
Azrael.
[automerge]1590427130[/automerge]
I hear what you're saying. But does Apple?
Azrael.
[automerge]1590427344[/automerge]
Er, yes?
Apple launched the 5k iMac when Dell were charging a fortune for it minus a computer.
Where IS that Apple today making the iMac a compelling value? An innovation machine?
For the record, I think Dell do an 8k which has been on sale in the past on Amazon for around £3k-ish.
With Apple's supply chain expertise....
But I guess with the Pro XDR on 6k we won't expect 8k any time soon.
But a 6k iMac. It's going to be doable at some point. Now? Or in the future?
Revolution or evolution?
We have yet to see the iMac Pro refinements come to the iMac and it's been 3 years later. I don't recall things taking that long under Steve Jobs...
Azrael.
Why are you so sure? Do you have any source?
Rumour is about substantial update so that could be redesign also at least internally for iMac Pro's cooling.
I do find your approach a bit reckless here. Can we all not be friends? :-D
As much as I'd love a redesigned 32" 6K iMac with skinny bezels, I'd be ok with just a spec bump, as long as the specs and cooling are decent.
I'd be happy with that too!
I’d be very surprised if they kept a non-retina model. The current one is from 2017 and was not updated in 2019. The OS doesn’t even support non-retina displays anymore (no subpixel antialiasing).
The only thing stopping Apple from selling that base 21.5" non retina is lack of supply of panels or CPUs. While the Kaby Lake desktop CPUs are beginning to get discontinued the mobile CPUs are not, Intel still haven't discontinued mobile CPUs all the way back to Haswell (4th gen).
And that Kaby Lake CPU isn't the only outlier that Apple have used in their based 21.5" model - the late 2015 model used a really poverty spec Broadwell CPU which was on a Thunderbolt 2 motherboard.
I'm guessing they needed to use Thunderbolt 3 when they specced out the 2017 models so went for the Kaby Lake mobile option when the motherboard redesign was forced.
When the time comes for another redesign it might need Thunderbolt 4 to be a thing - its already slated for release with 10nm Tiger Lake for mobile later this year and Rocket Lake S next year. It's not going to offer a speed increase over Thunderbolt 3 but it will at least incorporate all manner of new and balkanised USB3 standards that have been recently released.
The other thing that Rocket Lake S will bring will be 20 lanes of PCIe 4.0 (up from 16 on Comet Lake and prior CPUs) - this would enable even faster SSD, and better GPU performance.
Imagine direct connection of RDNA2 GPUs on 8x PCIe 4.0 lanes (equivalent performance to 16x PCIe 3.0 lanes) - and the possibility for a standard iMac to carry 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports in addition.
There wouldn't be too much of a performance penalty if the same RDNA2 card would connect via 4x PCIe 4.0 lanes (same as the current 8 lanes of PCIe 3.0); 4x for the super fast SSD, 8 for 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports via 2 Titan Ridge controllers, and keep an extra 4 lanes back for optional 10Gig Ethernet. That would then cater for pretty much a replacement iMac Pro using Rocket Lake S CPUs.
And imagine the flexibility of a headless Mac (mini) with 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports and an onboard GPU...
Perhaps another reason to stick around for 2021 Macs - and a compelling reason for Apple to tread water this year, especially if they can somehow justify a warmed over Coffee Lake spec or storage bump to keep the iMac ticking over during this exceptionally odd year.