Anyway, I still think it takes two to tango and the OP seems to be making out Apple's deliberately gone out to be divisive. When they're only looking after their best interests, just as Google and Adobe look after theirs.
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Will you support Apple in the future?
- Thread starter Ramius
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Anyway, I still think it takes two to tango and the OP seems to be making out Apple's deliberately gone out to be divisive. When they're only looking after their best interests, just as Google and Adobe look after theirs.
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What does that early Android prototype have to do with Google entering more of apples "core markets" and why (in your opinion) shouldn't Google invest in other ventures? Just to appease Apple?
Edit:
Let me guess, your next train of thought will be how evil Google copied Apple. The creator of the worlds first capacative touch handset in the all familiar iPhone form factor?
If this I where you are headed, please do an online search for the LG Prada. The worlds first capacative touch handset announced in December 2006.
elppa said:ChazUK said:
Anyway, I still think it takes two to tango and the OP seems to be making out Apple's deliberately gone out to be divisive. When they're only looking after their best interests, just as Google and Adobe look after theirs.
What does that early Android prototype have to do with Google entering more of apples "core markets" and why (in your opinion) shouldn't Google invest in other ventures? Just to appease Apple?
Edit:
Let me guess, your next train of thought will be how evil Google copied Apple. The creator of the worlds first capacative touch handset in the all familiar iPhone form factor?
If this I where you are headed, please do an online search for the LG Prada. The worlds first capacative touch handset announced in December 2006.
How about you read my comments and stop jumping to conclusions. I'm not looking for an argument. I agree that Google should invest in other ventures. There's nothing stopping them.
But if people say things like the “powerhungry company that Apple has undeniably become”, then I think I'm entitled to point out (in the interests of balance) that Google go and enter a lot of new markets and are quite aggressive in their strategies as well.
The prototype was only a little reminder of how the ideas for Android changed dramatically in the space of a few months based upon “market trends”. Just a bit of fun really.
Anyway I think you're almost as blind as the OP. Anyone who defends Apple MUST be out to attack Google. Not an accurate reading of my comments.
But if people say things like the “powerhungry company that Apple has undeniably become”, then I think I'm entitled to point out (in the interests of balance) that Google go and enter a lot of new markets and are quite aggressive in their strategies as well.
The prototype was only a little reminder of how the ideas for Android changed dramatically in the space of a few months based upon “market trends”. Just a bit of fun really.
Anyway I think you're almost as blind as the OP. Anyone who defends Apple MUST be out to attack Google. Not an accurate reading of my comments.
Yes, so long as Apple keeps making the best products, I will continue to support them.
I would also like to completely agree with this post:
Thanks Apple, Thanks LTD,
Keri
I would also like to completely agree with this post:
Thanks Apple, Thanks LTD,
Keri
I have no plans to stop buying apple products, then again I also don't care what these corporate behemoths do to stab each other in the back.
I like Google and Adobe, I rely on at least one of them for work (unlike Apple). So naturally I'd side with the guys who make me money.
My next PC will be a homebuild. OSX is great and such but I'm not happy with a lot of decisions Apple make (or don't make).
My next PC will be a homebuild. OSX is great and such but I'm not happy with a lot of decisions Apple make (or don't make).
Hmmmmmmmmmmm i'm supposed to feel sorry for Adobe? A company that wants to encapsulate video and animation content in their own runtime environment at considerable profit.
Hmmmmm i'm supposed to feel sorry for Google. A company that violates user trust and privacy (Buzz) and thwarts fair use (DMCA takedown of You Tube parodies) or buys small companies to kill their product (reMail).
I don't think the OP really understands what is going on. In which way have Adobe or Google looked out for "my" interests as a consumer? Apple's the company trying to keep the internet as open as possible. Look at what they've done with Webkit.
I don't see how this information is readily available yet someone can be 180 degrees away from reality.
If Apple is so damn evil them pray tell how many times you had to plug in a serial number for the OS. How many licensing servers so they run like Microsoft's Genuine Advantage. How much effort have they put to squash Hackintosh boxes build by enthusiasts.
Most of you complaining don't know how good you have it. Apple isn't perfect but they're a far cry from being evil.
Hmmmmm i'm supposed to feel sorry for Google. A company that violates user trust and privacy (Buzz) and thwarts fair use (DMCA takedown of You Tube parodies) or buys small companies to kill their product (reMail).
I don't think the OP really understands what is going on. In which way have Adobe or Google looked out for "my" interests as a consumer? Apple's the company trying to keep the internet as open as possible. Look at what they've done with Webkit.
I don't see how this information is readily available yet someone can be 180 degrees away from reality.
If Apple is so damn evil them pray tell how many times you had to plug in a serial number for the OS. How many licensing servers so they run like Microsoft's Genuine Advantage. How much effort have they put to squash Hackintosh boxes build by enthusiasts.
Most of you complaining don't know how good you have it. Apple isn't perfect but they're a far cry from being evil.
I've got an iMac which happens to be my first Mac. Been using Mac for a little over two years now. Barring a monumental change in desktop computing in the next three years or so my next machine will be a Mac too.
Why? 'cause my iMac's the best computer I've ever owned.
Now, when I first switched I became a fully paid-up cult member. I even started window-shopping for polo necks. That has recently changed and it's not down to some of the news articles I've seen about Apple (Adobe, Google, the Foxconn accusations, the iPhone prototype etc). I think I've just moved away from brand loyalty in general. Yesterday I needed a new portable media player. I'm on a budget so I started shopping around for a relatively cheap but decent player (I'm a firm believer in buy crap, buy twice. Why spend £50 two or three times when you can pay £100 once?) In the end I plumped for a Nano. Now people who know me will immediately chuckle and say 'Oh, it just had to be Apple'. But I didn't find another portable digital music player that comes close in various departments- size, build quality, sound quality, software etc.
Same with my iMac. If someone out there comes out with a desktop that's as secure, quiet, reliable, quick, well-designed and with such a small, elegant footprint I'll be straight down the showroom. Until then, for iPods and computers, it's Apple for me. Not because I'm a Kool-Aid quaffing acolyte but because, in my opinion, Apple make some really good gear. It's that simple.
Another good example is my car- a Toyota Aygo. Now Toyota have had some well-publicised problems- major ones- recently. But I'd still buy another. Why? Not because of brand loyalty but because my car has been nothing but rock-solid reliable since I bought it. Hasn't missed a beat. And whenever I've used the local Toyota showroom/garage for servicing/MOT etc I've had exceptional customer service. When that changes, so will my choice of car.
Same goes for Apple. I'll vote with my feet/wallet.
Why? 'cause my iMac's the best computer I've ever owned.
Now, when I first switched I became a fully paid-up cult member. I even started window-shopping for polo necks. That has recently changed and it's not down to some of the news articles I've seen about Apple (Adobe, Google, the Foxconn accusations, the iPhone prototype etc). I think I've just moved away from brand loyalty in general. Yesterday I needed a new portable media player. I'm on a budget so I started shopping around for a relatively cheap but decent player (I'm a firm believer in buy crap, buy twice. Why spend £50 two or three times when you can pay £100 once?) In the end I plumped for a Nano. Now people who know me will immediately chuckle and say 'Oh, it just had to be Apple'. But I didn't find another portable digital music player that comes close in various departments- size, build quality, sound quality, software etc.
Same with my iMac. If someone out there comes out with a desktop that's as secure, quiet, reliable, quick, well-designed and with such a small, elegant footprint I'll be straight down the showroom. Until then, for iPods and computers, it's Apple for me. Not because I'm a Kool-Aid quaffing acolyte but because, in my opinion, Apple make some really good gear. It's that simple.
Another good example is my car- a Toyota Aygo. Now Toyota have had some well-publicised problems- major ones- recently. But I'd still buy another. Why? Not because of brand loyalty but because my car has been nothing but rock-solid reliable since I bought it. Hasn't missed a beat. And whenever I've used the local Toyota showroom/garage for servicing/MOT etc I've had exceptional customer service. When that changes, so will my choice of car.
Same goes for Apple. I'll vote with my feet/wallet.
There was a time when Apple was the best at doing one thing that it did. That time was 2005 - when Mac OS X Tiger had just released and was easily the best operating system around.
However, that was five years ago. The competition caught up a while ago and Apple's computers are now all decidedly dated in comparison - both in terms of hardware and software.
Windows is free of all of its virus and stability issues and has a UI that really shows up OS X. HTC are making fools of Apple in the mobile phone space with handsets that are better constructed and perform far better than iPhone and Microsoft showed Apple how a media player should be done when it released Zune HD last year.
So, when you go into an Apple Store today you won't be able to buy the best products any more. You won't find "the world's fastest desktop computer" - you'll find a selection of parts from Intel's history as well as last year's model of mobile phone and media player.
However, that was five years ago. The competition caught up a while ago and Apple's computers are now all decidedly dated in comparison - both in terms of hardware and software.
Windows is free of all of its virus and stability issues and has a UI that really shows up OS X. HTC are making fools of Apple in the mobile phone space with handsets that are better constructed and perform far better than iPhone and Microsoft showed Apple how a media player should be done when it released Zune HD last year.
So, when you go into an Apple Store today you won't be able to buy the best products any more. You won't find "the world's fastest desktop computer" - you'll find a selection of parts from Intel's history as well as last year's model of mobile phone and media player.
Wow you lost me and probably countless others when you said 10.4 was the best OS around. Are you actually from Earth or do you live in some parallel Universe where 10.4 was actually mature and fairly feature complete? My first Mac with OS X was a Tiger based machine. I think Tiger was the first OS X version that felt like a day in and day out OS rather than some extended developer preview. However not in my wildest dream of dreams would I tell anyone that 10.4 was superior to any other OS at the time. That strains credulity for any Mac using tech enthusiast.
Based on the fact that you are totally out in left field based on your first paragraph I can pretty much ascertain that nothing even remotely accurate will occur in the rest of your post which of course is lacking in "any" sort data to support your assertions
Next time please try to put in some sort of basis for your "opinion" that is actually based on technology rather than hope that people foolishly take your misguided opinion as fact.
Yawn...next
P.S - lest something think I've provided no info as well
Report showing Windows 7 vulnerable to 80& of virus
ComScore mobile market share
Android 9%
iPhone 25.4%
Wow those phones are really demolishing Apple. Granted Android's market share is rising but they are on multiple US carriers, they frequently run promotions and give phones away.
I think that's enough right now.
What, you mean compared to all those other machines using something more modern than a Core i5 and i7?
Subjective and, in my opinion, false. For example, the Apple OS is the only one that can accept blocks of program and automatically schedule them across such CPUs and GPUs as are available. Or if you prefer hard and fast numbers, the most used application in the world is MS Office. If I walk into a shop then I can buy Office 2007 for my PC or Office 2008 for my Mac. Which of those is more modern?
Supposing you don't mean OS technology or application releases, what do you mean?
I expect someone else will respond to this. It's an obvious troll.
No, they ship handsets with a few bigger numbers for nerdy tech bloggers to get excited about. HTC aren't even launching a multitouch enabled handset until Q2 this year (source).
Yeah! An HDMI slot for the 1% of consumers / 99% of bloggers who want to connect these things to a TV! Provided they're Americans, of course. And reserve the GPU for application developers that Microsoft knows personally. And what's the deal with this modern browsing experience? All media players should ship with IE6. Or, let me guess, watching Youtube videos or BBC iPlayer or whatever your TV network supplies doesn't count as media playing?
Agreed. 10.4 was the pinnacle of OSX. A great combination of features and performance. 10.5 and now 10.6 are quite bloated. While 10.6 is laying the ground work for later versions of OSX. Tiger is at the moment the best version of OSX.
I disagree, apple's computer hardware is great, their updated MBP and iMac lines are all using top of the line intel CPUs. Folks are waiting for the MacPro to be updated.
Yeah the software side of apple is showing its age, and competition has caught up.
Their iPhone is design is a bit dated and HTC among others have surpassed them. That's the danger of releasing updates annually when your competitor is releasing new phones every few months.
I got news for you. Viruses are still a huge concern and worry for windows machines. I recently had to work till 2:00am updating servers because of an emergency microsoft patch was issued. You still need to be vigilant and install/update/maintain antivirus software because viruses are still a HUGE problem with windows. As for stability they've made great inroads towards reducing BSOD, no debate there.
Marketing aside, apple never really ever had the worlds fastest computer and if that's what your aiming for then apple is not the best product for you. Apple excels at great hardware, great software with great integration.
Yeah I'm "so" behind in OS technology.
My 10.6 has OpenCL for GPGPU processing (which keeps it current with Microsoft's DirectCompute initiative) and we have Grand Central Dispatch a new way to deliver highly threaded, multi core efficiency for developers without some of the thread management hassles. Not only that Apple has brought 64-bit computing to us without the hassle of purchasing "Snow Leopard 32-bit" & "Snow Leopard 64-bit"
Apple has hired no less than 3 stalwarts of security in the last 18 months.
Ivan Krstic (bitfrost, 1 laptop per child)
Window Snyder (Microsoft, Mozilla)
Jon Callas (PGP)
Apple's technology in the iPad is state of the art with a customized 1Ghz Cortex-A8 ARM core.
Apple is by no means perfect but those of us who follow them closely and are a bit more of tech enthusiasts see a company that is operating perhaps beyond even their own expectations. In all honesty they should be able to do what they are doing. It confounds all expectations.
So why some of you all think Android is all that you're blinding yourself to the severe issues already cropping up like platform fragmentation
Ouch this is not good! This is what happens when you put the update mechanism in the hands of the carrier versus Apple's insistence that they handle all OS and Firmware updates. If you're an Android developer you cannot guarantee your apps is going to work across these different versions because Verizon's Android phones may be at version 1.x versus Sprints phones at version 2.x. This will need to be fixed PRONTO or the frustration will mount and the angry Android users will migrate to a more stable platform like the iPhone.
My 10.6 has OpenCL for GPGPU processing (which keeps it current with Microsoft's DirectCompute initiative) and we have Grand Central Dispatch a new way to deliver highly threaded, multi core efficiency for developers without some of the thread management hassles. Not only that Apple has brought 64-bit computing to us without the hassle of purchasing "Snow Leopard 32-bit" & "Snow Leopard 64-bit"
Apple has hired no less than 3 stalwarts of security in the last 18 months.
Ivan Krstic (bitfrost, 1 laptop per child)
Window Snyder (Microsoft, Mozilla)
Jon Callas (PGP)
Apple's technology in the iPad is state of the art with a customized 1Ghz Cortex-A8 ARM core.
Apple is by no means perfect but those of us who follow them closely and are a bit more of tech enthusiasts see a company that is operating perhaps beyond even their own expectations. In all honesty they should be able to do what they are doing. It confounds all expectations.
So why some of you all think Android is all that you're blinding yourself to the severe issues already cropping up like platform fragmentation
Ouch this is not good! This is what happens when you put the update mechanism in the hands of the carrier versus Apple's insistence that they handle all OS and Firmware updates. If you're an Android developer you cannot guarantee your apps is going to work across these different versions because Verizon's Android phones may be at version 1.x versus Sprints phones at version 2.x. This will need to be fixed PRONTO or the frustration will mount and the angry Android users will migrate to a more stable platform like the iPhone.
My first Apple computer was an eMac running Jaguar, this was back in 2002. I have to say that compared to Windows XP, OSX might have not been as mature, but I fell in love with the OS immediately. It was beautiful and it just worked. I remember the first time I plugged in my camera and it just worked, or the time I installed a printer in less than 5 minutes I was printing. I was amazed and wondered why Microsoft couldn't figure this out.
Whether you hate or Love Steve Jobs, you have to admit that he helped Apple take advantage of and incredible incongruity that Microsoft was not paying attention to. Hardware and software that just worked. Yeah sure drivers were always available, but they're a pain to work with. Especially when your like me, I love technology but don't want to have a computer science degree to use my computer. Apple realized this and ran with it, thus fast becoming a leader with its new OS. The fact that other companies have had time to analyze Apples strategy and are now catching up to Apple is actually good. After all, incongruence is the source for new market leaders and Apple is not immune to falling from the throne. I personally don't really care what corporate behemoth wins or loses, as long as we the consumer can be happy with our gadgets instead of trying to figure out how to make them work.
Whether you hate or Love Steve Jobs, you have to admit that he helped Apple take advantage of and incredible incongruity that Microsoft was not paying attention to. Hardware and software that just worked. Yeah sure drivers were always available, but they're a pain to work with. Especially when your like me, I love technology but don't want to have a computer science degree to use my computer. Apple realized this and ran with it, thus fast becoming a leader with its new OS. The fact that other companies have had time to analyze Apples strategy and are now catching up to Apple is actually good. After all, incongruence is the source for new market leaders and Apple is not immune to falling from the throne. I personally don't really care what corporate behemoth wins or loses, as long as we the consumer can be happy with our gadgets instead of trying to figure out how to make them work.
According to Chris Ziegler from Engadget, Froyo and Gingerbread should alleviate Androids fragmentation "by decoupling many of Android's standard applications and components from the platform's core and making them downloadable and updatable through the Market, much the same as they've already done with Maps. In all likelihood, this process will take place over two major Android versions, starting with Froyo and continuing through Gingerbread. Notice that we said apps and components, meaning that some core elements of Android -- input methods, for instance -- should get this treatment. This way, just because Google rolls out an awesome new browser doesn't mean you need to wait for HTC, Samsung, or whomever made your phone to roll it into a firmware update, and for your carrier to approve it -- almost all of the juicy user-facing stuff will happen through the Market."
It seems that Google knows very well that it has a serious problem to fix
and it's not wasting any time.
It seems that Google knows very well that it has a serious problem to fix
and it's not wasting any time.
They still do what they do for the progress of technology, and always the best they can for the customers - delivering the best products of their category, period.
I'm still with them.
I'm still with them.
The way Apple is going, I'd say probably not. Not unless they seriously impress me with OS X 10.7, I'm probably going back to Windows.
It's a shame, I really like Apple's products, and I think they would have 10x the potential, if Apple were not ass****ing around with flash and trying to control everyone.
It's a shame, I really like Apple's products, and I think they would have 10x the potential, if Apple were not ass****ing around with flash and trying to control everyone.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that I can't justify paying Apple's ridiculous prices any more. Why would anyone buy a Mac these days when you can get the same (or better) components for less money and also get an OS (Windows 7) that is far faster and more stable than OS X as well?
The only thing I can see that Apple still has going for it with Macs is build quality. I'm yet to see a computer from another manufacturer that has the same quality of build as my Mac Pro or MacBook. However, after spending time with Dell and Lenovo systems recently, I'm not sure they are so far behind as to justify spending double the price on a Mac.
The "new" 13" MacBook Pro includes a Core 2 Duo processor that was launched in 2008. Yet, the price hasn't decreased - what's the deal with selling two-year-old hardware for more than the competition sells today's hardware for?
Well, let's see. My Mac Pro has suffered at least five kernel panics while running OS X since I got it last year. I installed Windows 7 on it (when the preview versions were around and upgraded to the full version on release day) and I have seen one application crash, which didn't affect other applications running at the time. Windows 7 has never locked up or restarted on me, unlike OS X. If that's not the OS' fault (considering it was running on the same hardware) then I don't know what's wrong.
I bought one earlier this week. HTC Desire from my local Orange store. It hasn't stopped impressing me yet. My iPhone 3G has been sent to a breaker for "recycling" - the only good thing about it is that it held its value and the money I'm getting back for it will cover the up front cost of my new HTC Desire. Newsflash: Q2 started last month.
Media player. I didn't say anything about applications. Zune HD is much, much better for watching video because it has a 16:9 screen - you get to see the whole picture with no cropping or black bars.
The only thing I can see that Apple still has going for it with Macs is build quality. I'm yet to see a computer from another manufacturer that has the same quality of build as my Mac Pro or MacBook. However, after spending time with Dell and Lenovo systems recently, I'm not sure they are so far behind as to justify spending double the price on a Mac.
The "new" 13" MacBook Pro includes a Core 2 Duo processor that was launched in 2008. Yet, the price hasn't decreased - what's the deal with selling two-year-old hardware for more than the competition sells today's hardware for?
Well, let's see. My Mac Pro has suffered at least five kernel panics while running OS X since I got it last year. I installed Windows 7 on it (when the preview versions were around and upgraded to the full version on release day) and I have seen one application crash, which didn't affect other applications running at the time. Windows 7 has never locked up or restarted on me, unlike OS X. If that's not the OS' fault (considering it was running on the same hardware) then I don't know what's wrong.
I bought one earlier this week. HTC Desire from my local Orange store. It hasn't stopped impressing me yet. My iPhone 3G has been sent to a breaker for "recycling" - the only good thing about it is that it held its value and the money I'm getting back for it will cover the up front cost of my new HTC Desire. Newsflash: Q2 started last month.
Media player. I didn't say anything about applications. Zune HD is much, much better for watching video because it has a 16:9 screen - you get to see the whole picture with no cropping or black bars.
The way Apple is going, I'd say probably not. Not unless they seriously impress me with OS X 10.7, I'm probably going back to Windows.
It's a shame, I really like Apple's products, and I think they would have 10x the potential, if Apple were not ass****ing around with flash and trying to control everyone.
I'm in the same boat, unless apple decides to get serious with their computer line and OS, my next computer will not be a mac. I stand by my earlier post about great integration but lack of innovation on the hardware/software will cause me to go to windows.
It has a new and custom built GPU. Since 10.6, the Mac OS has been very good at scheduling correctly written programmatic tasks across CPUs and GPUs.
That doesn't matter though, key point is that you generalised incorrectly from one data point. You appear to conclude that because they still sell a Core 2 Duo, Apple's entire hardware line is out of date. I'll wager you wouldn't apply the same logic to HP, Dell, etc.
Anecdotal evidence sourced from yourself that backs up what you were already saying? I didn't say you don't believe your comments, merely that they aren't accurate, so this isn't at all persuasive. I can stub my toe three times in a week, it doesn't mean that toes have become more likely to be stubbed lately.
I have a Nexus One, which I was given for free for attending a Google event, and a 3GS which I get for free through my employment. The Nexus One is better on paper and has a better screen but fails massively in usability. You can really see they've gone after the heavy Windows/Linux computer user and decided to try to get as many tickboxes as possible to impress people who like to shout at each other regardless of actual user experience. E.g.
- on the Nexus, apps install and appear in an applications menu separate from the home screen; if you want them on the home screen then you need to add a shortcut there. To remove an application you have to go through what amounts to an Android version of the Windows control panel.
- on the iPhone all apps live in their entirety on the home screen. You can launch them from only exactly one place and that's also where you delete them from; there's no need to apply a mental abstraction to separate display from storage.
- double tap part of a page in Safari and the browser makes a pretty decent guess at what logical page element (like a paragraph section or a box or whatever) you want to look at and zooms in on that.
- double tap part of a page in the Android browser and it zooms to an area around that point irrespective of what's on the page. It's noticeably less smooth at zooming.
And that's without going into all the minor usability issues that really affect the phone. Okay, here's one: cursor positioning. Oh, and the screens. The OLED on the Android looks a million times better than the LCD iPhone for maybe a week or two. Then it looks worse because the handset uses a cheap, scratchy plastic screen cover, hence why it comes with one of those 90s style phone protector pockets.
And I appreciate this isn't entirely relevant to what you're writing since HTC manufacture Android and Windows Mobile phones and often use their own user interfaces. I bring it up because I believe the Nexus One to be a Google branded HTC handset?
[QUOTE =neiltc13;9814611]Newsflash: Q2 started last month.[/QUOTE]
Oh, okay, sorry. Obviously you meant that "HTC [have been] making fools of Apple in the mobile phone space with handsets that are better constructed and perform far better than iPhone ... for a month". To be fair, they did manage to ship an OpenGL ES 2.0 supporting device (ie, one with pixel and vertex shaders) back in March, so with the benefit of the doubt you might be able to give them two months of leadership so far, starting eight months after the relevant Apple product was released.
Yes, and I mentioned youtube and the BBC iPlayer as examples of media playing. Which you conveniently ignore.
Out of interest Thomas, how has your Nexus One got a plastic cover on the screen? I've got a retail handset and it has a glass screen with no plastic coating whatsoever so perhaps the dev phones were supplied like that.
As for doubletapping to zoom, mine seems to zoom into the area I wanted to zoom in on, then the browser reflows the text to a readable size for the orientation of the screen. No more panning around!
Perhaps if took that plastic cover off the screen it would work better?
As for doubletapping to zoom, mine seems to zoom into the area I wanted to zoom in on, then the browser reflows the text to a readable size for the orientation of the screen. No more panning around!
Perhaps if took that plastic cover off the screen it would work better?
I'd expect it to be more likely that I'm wrong than that Google saved a few cents (or, more likely, spent a whole bunch more by running two production lines) just so they could give some phones away. It came in a full retail box, even down to coming with an American charger only despite being a giveaway from Google UK, presented at Google's building next to Victoria.
I'll find the thing and post revisions to my earlier comments as necessary, as I strongly suspect my memory is playing tricks and it does cut to the core of the physical construction issue...